Should the purchase of sex be legal or illegal in Ireland?

melissak

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I can't think of a legitimate reason to ban two consenting adults from exchanging money for sex.

Or presents..

discus

Or companionship and shared bills and household...

melissak

Speedwell wrote: »

I had a friend in college once who was pretty sexually liberated, but one time when the group of friends were all sitting around chatting and the legalization of sex work was the topic of conversation, she piped up, "I don't want prostitution to be legal; if it was legal I couldn't trust any man I was in a relationship with". Everyone's eyebrows stuck themselves to the ceiling and there was a moment of stunned silence.

In my experience sometimes extreme liberatedness is a mask covering insecurity.

Billy86

Amirani wrote: »

Nailed every point.

Theoretically; I'd support removal of all criminality associated. Practically, there are other problems that need to be tackled around trafficking, pimping etc.

On balance, I'd probably support legalisation, even though I know this would lead to some exploitation. However, supporting to legalisation of any sort of sale of labour leads to exploitation.

This is the major worry. I would never hire a sex worker myself (if there's no genuine connection I just couldn't see myself being interested) but don't mind the trade itself on sheer principle - apparently a lot of prostitutes operate almost as councillors or agony aunts, as much as they do sex workers - a lot of people just want someone relatively anonymous to talk to or vent towards. I would also imagine they do a lot of good work for the physically disabled and such.

However one thing I read a year or so back which hopefully it true, is that the internet is absolutely decimating the pimping industry as these women can arrange meetings with clients, etc and can find ways of ensuring protection (or at least being able to trace the culprit very easily, if not) without needing a 'heavy' or someone to essentially 'own' them looking to protect their 'investment'. I don't know if it is the same in relation to trafficking sex workers, and even if it is I would worry that that would be a much longer and more difficult area to undermine via technology for a myriad of reasons, but at least it apparently is giving a lot more power and autonomy to the actual sex workers and not the scummy types who simply leech off them.

Strazdas

Finnley Colossal Backdrop wrote: »

Well any amount of trafficking that is going on should be a serious cause for concern. But it doesn't follow that criminalising the sale of sex will stop trafficking, quite the opposite I would have thought. It's like making puppies illegal rather than puppy farming.

Yes, actual trafficking and imprisoning of human beings is deadly serious and the authorities should be doing everything in their power to stop it. But as you say there's not much evidence that making paying for sex illegal would have the slightest effect on trafficking of women.

Zen65

Deleted User wrote: »

It's legal cos the nuns pushed for it? Zoiks.

I'm gonna ask for a source for that one.

I think the poster meant that Ruhama (a voluntary organisation largely resourced by nuns and ex-nuns) have pushed to have the laws changed to make the purchase of sex a crime, rather than the selling of it.

I think this will be hard to enforce. If a man buys a woman a drink in a bar, and then later they go back to her place, could it be argued that he was buying sex? What if, instead of a drink, it was a dozen bottles of wine? Or a Gucci bag? Or a car? Or a house? Or for her college education? Or their mortgage?

I'm just saying that cash-for-sex is a dubious exchange to legislate for.

Personally I'd decriminalise it and adopt the Amsterdam model of being open and transparent about it, but Regulated. Prostitution is not going to be stamped out, only the form of it will change.

Olishi4

discus wrote: »

Or companionship and shared bills and household...

It depends on how you look at and view sex. I wouldn't agree that you could compare a loving relationship and running a household together to sex work and sex as a commodity.

Within a relationship, people have sex for the mutual gratification and pleasure of the sex alone. The bills and household are separate.

With sex work, there is the added direct factor of money. The sex worker engages in it for the money and the client for the physical pleasure. There is a sense that the sex worker is giving something away, part of their body. I wonder about the effect on the client too. It cant be a good feeling to have to pay someone to desire you. I can't see that either the client or the sex worker come away from it feeling sexually liberated but more of a means to an end.

I know it is legal here but I don't know if it should be or not. IMO, I don't think it has a good effect on the people involved and I don't think it is as simple as "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." People's immediate safety comes first and that is the most important thing so it being legal does make sense on the surface but perhaps it could give the wrong message too, that you can buy people. I guess there are pros and cons to keeping it legal.

maudgonner

A bill was proposed under Frances Fitzgerald that would make the purchase of sex illegal. It's part of the same bill that strengthens measures against child pornography and grooming, as well as bringing in a proximity of age defence into statutory rape cases.

It was still in the works in February, when the Dáil was suspended. How does that work with a change of government? Will the legislation pick up from where it left off? If we ever get a new government, that is.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Criminal_Law_%28Sexual_Offences%29_Bill_2015

Discodog

When I was living in England I had a prostitute living next door - about 100 yds away. She was very well educated, had a beauty salon & "worked" to pay for her son to be at an expensive school. She was discreet & entertained her clients at home. We became & remain friends.

The stereotyping by groups like Ruhama assumes that no woman would do this by choice. They would argue that my friend doesn't really want to do it. I read that a group of Irish Escorts had started a petition to stop the criminalisation.

esforum

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Legalise, regulate and tax... Same with drugs.

It's going to happen one way or the other, I'd rather see women and men in regulated brothels than on the street. Come down extremely hard (no pun intended) on unregulated brothels and human traffiking.

Prostitutes must go for regular STD tests.

If there's no way to eradicate an industry, you may as well make it safer.

no, nt the same as drugs. not the same at all. THey have **** all in common

Drugs **** you up, they are addictive and lead many many users into a life of crime, legalising drugs will not change those realities.

Prostitution is a choice made by both parties and can be walked away from at any time.

trafficing is rare, foolish to say it never happens but its rare. One issue however woould be that no matter how you legalise it, there would be those that remained outside the legal system. I am thinking of illegal immigrants, junkies for example. Unless you simple said "sex for all, hoorah!" but I dunno if just legalising without limits or regulation would really be any better.

As for the help agencies, there stats are based on very shaky evidence. First off, all reports are judged to be accurate. So a woman says "I was trafficed in for prostitution" but the Garda investigation says otherwise? According to Ruhama, thats still a confirmed case.

esforum

Discodog wrote: »

When I was living in England I had a prostitute living next door - about 100 yds away.

How ****ing big was the manor mlord????

100 yards, thats about 5 neighbours away from me!

melissak

esforum wrote: »

no, nt the same as drugs. not the same at all. THey have **** all in common

Drugs **** you up, they are addictive and lead many many users into a life of crime, legalising drugs will not change those realities.

Prostitution is a choice made by both parties and can be walked away from at any time.

trafficing is rare, foolish to say it never happens but its rare. One issue however woould be that no matter how you legalise it, there would be those that remained outside the legal system. I am thinking of illegal immigrants, junkies for example. Unless you simple said "sex for all, hoorah!" but I dunno if just legalising without limits or regulation would really be any better

Some drugs maybe. I haven't heard of a lot of hippies mugging people for weed..

One eyed Jack

esforum wrote: »

Prostitution is a choice made by both parties and can be walked away from at any time.

It's generally a choice made by only one party, and that's the only party that is generally free to walk away from it at any time, hence why criminalising buyers dries up the sellers market, and therefore prostitution becomes an even more unattractive prospect for anyone to be involved in.

exiztone

Deleted User wrote: »

It's legal cos the nuns pushed for it? Zoiks.

I'm gonna ask for a source for that one.

I think he's referring to the 2011 campaign Turn Off the Red Light in which various NGOs began collectively pushing for legal reforms that would (effectively) criminalise prostitution. Many of these organisations are religious ones. The principal culprit here would be Ruhama whose board of directors include at least four nuns.

If you wish to support sex workers who choose their trade by their own volition and are fighting for better representation, support the Sex Workers Alliance Ireland.

melissak

esforum wrote: »

no, nt the same as drugs. not tbe

As for the help agencies, there stats are based on very shaky evidence. First off, all reports are judged to be accurate. So a woman says "I was trafficed in for prostitution" but the Garda investigation says otherwise? According to Ruhama, thats still a confirmed case.

Do you think it's a bit of a get out of jail free card in some cases?

esforum

melissak wrote: »

Some drugs maybe. I haven't heard of a lot of hippies mugging people for weed..

yep, cause the main users of Hash are hippies from the 60s and 70s!

Nope, they are the same scummers that walk around with their tracksuit tcked in while fondling themselves and waiting for someone to take a call on their expensive phones.

But yeah, legalising hash would solve all our problems. I remember those months of utopian bliss than arrived with the head shops :rolleyes:

melissak wrote: »

Do you think it's a bit of a get out of jail free card in some cases?

for who? I know reporting you were trafficed will get you permission to stay. Is that what you mean?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's generally a choice made by only one party, and that's the only party that is generally free to walk away from it at any time, hence why criminalising buyers dries up the sellers market, and therefore prostitution becomes an even more unattractive prospect for anyone to be involved in.

theres no evidence internationally that criminalising buyers stops the trade. I would dispute your opinion that prostitutes are not doing so willingly, They may not enjoy the work but then the majority of workers generally dont.

melissak

esforum wrote: »

yep, cause the main users of Hash are hippies from the 60s and 70s!

Nope, they are the same scummers that walk around with their tracksuit tcked in while fondling themselves and waiting for someone to take a call on their expensive phones.

But yeah, legalising hash would solve all our problems. I remember those months of utopian bliss than arrived with the head shops :rolleyes:



for who? I know reporting you were trafficed will get you permission to stay. Is that what you mean?



theres no evidence internationally that criminalising buyers stops the trade. I would dispute your opinion that prostitutes are not doing so willingly, They may not enjoy the work but then the majority of workers generally dont.

Most people I know who smoke would be chilled out hippy types, but I don't hang around with scummers who fondle themselves, so I can't speak for them.
That is what I was wondering.
There is not enjoying working in an office and not enjoying having sex for money

One eyed Jack

esforum wrote: »

theres no evidence internationally that criminalising buyers stops the trade.

You were very careful with your wording there

It doesn't contradict what I actually said though.

I would dispute your opinion that prostitutes are not doing so willingly, They may not enjoy the work but then the majority of workers generally dont.

You're not disputing my opinion then, you're making up something I never said, and disputing that instead.

By your own admission that they may not enjoy the work, that hardly suggests they're engaged in sex work willingly, let alone your earlier assertion that they can walk away any time they like. Whether or not other people who are legitimately employed do or don't enjoy their chosen employment, is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

SoupMonster

Olishi4 wrote: »

With sex work, there is the added direct factor of money. The sex worker engages in it for the money and the client for the physical pleasure. There is a sense that the sex worker is giving something away, part of their body. I wonder about the effect on the client too. It cant be a good feeling to have to pay someone to desire you. I can't see that either the client or the sex worker come away from it feeling sexually liberated but more of a means to an end.

I was a "client" for many years from mid 80's until a few years ago. I'll ask you to look at a youtube clip from the TV show Matrioshki, just a short clip starting at 27:30 to 28:10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqWYwalxLaA

(if you are interested in the plot, Sveta was trafficked from Moldova to Belgium, was locked in a bar/brothel and is now forced to work the street. She asks that guy for help to get away, cries, begs, he doesn't want to get involved, but relents.)

That depiction is fairly accurate but it is more common that the woman would look to the side, avoiding looking at the man, count the cracks on the wall or completely dissociate. I'm not saying all transactions are like that but it is fairly common, and much more frequent in brothel prostitution than street, nightclub or hotel.

It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance or suspension of disbelief to watch a woman dissociate and walk away feeling good about yourself. I always felt like sh1t but everything about prostitution makes it easy to blame her. After all, if it was so bad, she could just stop, do something else, right?

Very few women will even bother pretending they desire you, or pretending to enjoy sex with a complete stranger. I don't think I ever met one. It is more common that she will be clinical, impersonal, transactional, but sometimes I walked away thinking that I had just raped a girl. That is a horrible feeling, one of the worst feelings in the world, because it goes to the core of who you are as a person. Talking about sexual liberation or empowerment in the context of prostitution is nonsense.

I once sat in my car at the traffick lights singing along with Ed Sheeran "take me into your loving arms, kiss me under the light of a thousand stars". I started to cry.

I was thinking of an Albanian girl in a "Club" (small bar/brothel) in Madrid. She was sold to me by the woman behind the bar. Downstairs there was a single bed, a stack of about 20 towels beside it. Bedsheets are not changed, just a new towel laid down. I cannot describe the feeling that came over me when I saw that I was charged tax on what looked and felt like rape. Complete revulsion, self-hatred, dismay.

I was sitting in my car crying, wondering if it was even possible for her to understand the sentiments in those lyrics. Is it possible to be used by 5, 10 or 20 strangers every day and still remain sane? Does it not make women hate men, destroy all that is good about physical intimacy? That girl was at most 20, I was 45. I was just one of any number of men who used her that day, a complete stranger.

The other day I read this, from a woman who was a high class escort in England. She was high price, low volume but she still has these feeling. It's not nice knowing that this can be the side affect of my activity. And it's not nice knowing that this is how this artist (abused as a child and later in prostitution) sees me.

I realise this all might sound a bit extreme. I'm not sure why I react like this after so many years, or why it took so long. I think it's because I kind of fell for the last woman I paid, she was the only one I ever cared about. Prostitution became completely different when it affected somebody I cared about.

rsh118

Having lived in a country with legalised prostitution, it's actually decent. The government gets more tax, the women get to live out of the shadows and it really doesn't affect life for us non-user in any way.

esforum

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You were very careful with your wording there

It doesn't contradict what I actually said though.

It does though, your arguement is that prostitutes are not willing and that making the johns the criminals will stop the problem. I am asking you now for proof of that. This is what you said, in case you forgot:

One eyed Jack wrote: »

criminalising buyers dries up the sellers market,

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By your own admission that they may not enjoy the work, that hardly suggests they're engaged in sex work willingly, let alone your earlier assertion that they can walk away any time they like. Whether or not other people who are legitimately employed do or don't enjoy their chosen employment, is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

thats absolute complete and utter rubbish. Only a prostitite that enjoys it is entering the area freely? Thats not using any definition of choice that I have ever encountered. How many bin men, by your version of the word, choose their occupation?

Olishi4

SoupMonster wrote: »

That depiction is fairly accurate but it is more common that the woman would look to the side, avoiding looking at the man, count the cracks on the wall or completely dissociate. I'm not saying all transactions are like that but it is fairly common, and much more frequent in brothel prostitution than street, nightclub or hotel.

It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance or suspension of disbelief to watch a woman dissociate and walk away feeling good about yourself. I always felt like sh1t but everything about prostitution makes it easy to blame her. After all, if it was so bad, she could just stop, do something else, right?

Very few women will even bother pretending they desire you, or pretending to enjoy sex with a complete stranger. I don't think I ever met one. It is more common that she will be clinical, impersonal, transactional, but sometimes I walked away thinking that I had just raped a girl. That is a horrible feeling, one of the worst feelings in the world, because it goes to the core of who you are as a person. Talking about sexual liberation or empowerment in the context of prostitution is nonsense.
.

No I don't think it is an extreme reaction. It sounds more self reflective and that you can recognise and are in touch with how it genuinely made you feel and it is brave to be able to admit it.

Sex work for the "client" is basically sexual rejection however the sex still goes ahead in the form of a "transaction". Rejection and constant rejection, I would think, would cause insecurity and resentment internally (towards yourself) and externally (towards the sex worker). It's all mixed up because sex and healthy sex is more about acceptance.

One eyed Jack

esforum wrote: »

It does though, your arguement is that prostitutes are not willing. I am asking you now for proof of that.

That's not my argument at all. Go back and read exactly what I wrote again. I stated exactly what I was contradicting in your post.

thats absolute complete and utter gibberish. I mean really, do you actually believe that? That people that dont enjoy their jobs are somehow being forced in them? (legal or illegal, doesnt change the choice aspect)

It was kind of you to preface your opinion with a description. I've stated exactly what I believe. Now whether you think legal or illegal doesn't change the aspect of choice, is another matter entirely. I would suggest that whether an activity is legal or illegal is very much an influential factor in whether someone chooses to engage in that activity or not.

esforum

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's not my argument at all. Go back and read exactly what I wrote again. I stated exactly what I was contradicting in your post.

Do I need to quote you again? Ok, here it is:

One eyed Jack wrote: »

criminalising buyers dries up the sellers market,

So lets be clear, you are not saying that making Johns the criminals stops the trade now?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

criminalising buyers dries up the sellers market,

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I would suggest that whether an activity is legal or illegal is very much an influential factor in whether someone chooses to engage in that activity or not.

That is not what you stated at the start. We are on choice here Jack, choice. You said Prostitutes by virtue of not enjoying the act, do not choose to partake freely.

You sound like a defence solicitor. Except I know some defence solicitors, they do it for the money not because they enjoy defending criminals. Jesus, that means they are being forced by the criminals into defending them! :eek:

Olishi4

esforum wrote: »

That is not what you stated at the start. We are on choice here Jack, choice. You said Prostitutes by virtue of not enjoying the act, do not choose to partake freely.
:

They don't partake freely. They get paid.

melissak

SoupMonster wrote: »

I was a "client" for many years from mid 80's until a few years ago. I'll ask you to look at a youtube clip from the TV show Matrioshki, just a short clip starting at 27:30 to 28:10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqWYwalxLaA

(if you are interested in the plot, Sveta was trafficked from Moldova to Belgium, was locked in a bar/brothel and is now forced to work the street. She asks that guy for help to get away, cries, begs, he doesn't want to get involved, but relents.)

That depiction is fairly accurate but it is more common that the woman would look to the side, avoiding looking at the man, count the cracks on the wall or completely dissociate. I'm not saying all transactions are like that but it is fairly common, and much more frequent in brothel prostitution than street, nightclub or hotel.

It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance or suspension of disbelief to watch a woman dissociate and walk away feeling good about yourself. I always felt like sh1t but everything about prostitution makes it easy to blame her. After all, if it was so bad, she could just stop, do something else, right?

Very few women will even bother pretending they desire you, or pretending to enjoy sex with a complete stranger. I don't think I ever met one. It is more common that she will be clinical, impersonal, transactional, but sometimes I walked away thinking that I had just raped a girl. That is a horrible feeling, one of the worst feelings in the world, because it goes to the core of who you are as a person. Talking about sexual liberation or empowerment in the context of prostitution is nonsense.

I once sat in my car at the traffick lights singing along with Ed Sheeran "take me into your loving arms, kiss me under the light of a thousand stars". I started to cry.

I was thinking of an Albanian girl in a "Club" (small bar/brothel) in Madrid. She was sold to me by the woman behind the bar. Downstairs there was a single bed, a stack of about 20 towels beside it. Bedsheets are not changed, just a new towel laid down. I cannot describe the feeling that came over me when I saw that I was charged tax on what looked and felt like rape. Complete revulsion, self-hatred, dismay.

I was sitting in my car crying, wondering if it was even possible for her to understand the sentiments in those lyrics. Is it possible to be used by 5, 10 or 20 strangers every day and still remain sane? Does it not make women hate men, destroy all that is good about physical intimacy? That girl was at most 20, I was 45. I was just one of any number of men who used her that day, a complete stranger.

The other day I read this, from a woman who was a high class escort in England. She was high price, low volume but she still has these feeling. It's not nice knowing that this can be the side affect of my activity. And it's not nice knowing that this is how this artist (abused as a child and later in prostitution) sees me.

I realise this all might sound a bit extreme. I'm not sure why I react like this after so many years, or why it took so long. I think it's because I kind of fell for the last woman I paid, she was the only one I ever cared about. Prostitution became completely different when it affected somebody I cared about.

That is really sad when you think about it.

esforum

Olishi4 wrote: »

They don't partake freely. They get paid.

witty if word play

Just plain wrong if serious

melissak

esforum wrote: »

Do I need to quote you again? Ok, here it is:




So lets be clear, you are not saying that making Johns the criminals stops the trade now?






That is not what you stated at the start. We are on choice here Jack, choice. You said Prostitutes by virtue of not enjoying the act, do not choose to partake freely.

You sound like a defence solicitor. Except I know some defence solicitors, they do it for the money not because they enjoy defending criminals. Jesus, that means they are being forced by the criminals into defending them! :eek:

This would be worse for your soul in the long run Imo. Defending people you know are evil in the hopes of releasing them into society to probably reoffend. I would much prefer to sell sex than do that.

esforum

melissak wrote: »

This would be worse for your soul in the long run Imo. Defending people you know are evil in the hopes of releasing them into society to probably reoffend. I would much prefer to sell sex than do that.

well that would be your CHOICE wouldnt it?

One eyed Jack

esforum wrote: »

Do I need to quote you again? Ok, here it is:

So lets be clear, you are not saying that making Johns the criminals stops the trade now?

No. Since we're being clear - I'm not suggesting it actually stops prostitution. I'm simply saying that criminalising the buyers makes prostitution a more unattractive choice for all involved.

That is not what you stated at the start. We are on choice here Jack, choice. You said Prostitutes by virtue of not enjoying the act, do not choose to partake freely.

No, that's not what I said. I implied that generally, the only person who has free choice to engage in the activity, or walk away any time they like, is not the sex worker. It's the person who is choosing to avail of the services of a sex worker.

You sound like a defence solicitor. Except I know some defence solicitors, they do it for the money not because they enjoy defending criminals. Jesus, that means they are being forced by the criminals into defending them! :eek:

You could at least try and stick to the topic?