Minimum Wage in NY

HensVassal

Permabear wrote: »

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Actually how about we concentrate on evidence and/or precedent. You claim categorically that a wage increase to $15 will destroy businesses and result in massive job losses. This is quite frankly bullsh1t that pro-corporate assholes trot out ad nauseum. What happened when Seattle introduced the wage increase? Did restaurants all go balls-to-the-wall like people similar to yourself said they would? NO! You claim that a $15 minimum wage is just outlandish and business couldn't survive paying it? Tell us then how the Australians manage to pay close to US $15 per hour minimum wage?

Your arguments are not based on any provable information past or present. Your argument is basically "I don't want the poor to have a chance. I don't want them to have a living wage because.....well because I just don't!"

That right there is the hallmark of a selfish, remorseless sociopath.

HensVassal

steddyeddy wrote: »

Will unemployment definitely rise with minimum wage introductions?

No it won't and a study by the university of massachusetts shows that the incremental increase will be easily absorbed.

People, I suppose conservatives, like Permabear use the rising unemployment gibberish as a reason to oppose the wage rise because if they were to give the real reason, i.e. that they just don't want the poor peasants to have anything at all...fcuk the poor, in other word, then that would show them up to be the rather unsavoury characters that a lot of them actually are.

HensVassal

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can you prove that raising the minimum wage will not lead to job losses?

It didn't in Seattle when they brought in the $15 minimum wage bill.....it was enacted this April (the bill...not the $15, but the initial increase was put into effect). Is that good enough for you?

And for anyone who points out that there was a slight dip in employment figures.....there alway IS in April in Seattle. Adjusting for seasonality as the Bureau of Labor Statistics always do showed no effective rise in unemployment.

HensVassal

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The more I read about economics, the more it seems to resemble a kind of logical art than science.

Yeah but you still try the sneaky stunt of demanding I prove a negative. That's not the realm of a sharpened and rational critical analyst. It's the debate equivalent of a street brawler.

HensVassal

Permabear wrote: »

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No.
And I'm not going to be drawn into your farcical $500/hr postulation. I'm not here to play games.

HensVassal

Permabear wrote: »

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For the umpteenth time......the wage increase does not jump from $9 to $15 in one go. It's phased in gradually over the course of 4 to 5 years.

astrofool

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Wow a full 67%? That's very alarming...or wait, you mean a full six dollars...not so alarming then is it.

Every now and then a post comes along that is so devoid of any intelligence that you just have to make note of it, and make sure everyone else sees it twice.

KomradeBishop

astrofool wrote: »

Every now and then a post comes along that is so devoid of any intelligence that you just have to make note of it, and make sure everyone else sees it twice.

While failing to explain your argument in the process of course, showing you just want to piss condescension into the thread.

ancapailldorcha

HensVassal wrote: »

Yeah but you still try the sneaky stunt of demanding I prove a negative. That's not the realm of a sharpened and rational critical analyst. It's the debate equivalent of a street brawler.

Whereas shoehorning the same few links into every discussion is perfectly fine. Gotcha.

karma_

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was. Thank you!

Maybe it's time you two got a room.

KomradeBishop

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Whereas shoehorning the same few links into every discussion is perfectly fine. Gotcha.

You have no argument as to why the BoE link should not be presented in every case where it's suitable - the frequency that a fact is posted, is irrelevant when it's suitable - and remember you asked me, so you don't get to complain about it being brought up (and in this debate, it was brought up in relation to the minimum wage forecasts, and establishing the inaccuracy of economic forecasting models generally).

You won't even put your cards on the table, and state whether you think the BoE document is correct or not - which shows that you just want to condescend over it and play it down, without even pinning down your own views (the usual rhetoric-based bullshít) - so again, to see if you'll pin down your views or just shirk/evade again, as you always do when presented with something you don't like:

Do you think the BoE document is correct, or do you think it's incorrect?

HensVassal

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Whereas shoehorning the same few links into every discussion is perfectly fine. Gotcha.

Are you referring to KB supplying links? And what's it with the "shoehorning" metaphor? Is that epithet somehow supposed to detract from the validity of the information provided therein?

I noticed that Permabear, when referring to the Bank of England paper, condescendingly calls it a "pdf". So now the format of the document determines whether or not the document is valid. That is beyond trite.

It's akin to asking for proof of someone's address, getting supplied with a scanned copy of a stamped bank statement or official tax document and then being so pathetic as to say "Pfft, a jpeg!"

astrofool

KomradeBishop wrote: »

While failing to explain your argument in the process of course, showing you just want to piss condescension into the thread.

Cost of electricity to rise 600%!, oh wait, that's a full 85 cents... not so alarming.

rsh118

Panama Papers? What papers? Nothing to see here, private affair for those smart enough or rich enough to do it.

The scum in New York are getting 5$ more over 4 or 5 years? The end of the world is nigh!

HensVassal

astrofool wrote: »

Cost of electricity to rise 600%!, oh wait, that's a full 85 cents... not so alarming.

Plastic bags were free but now they're 22c

That's an increase of ∞%

Christy42

I think the increase could be brought in a bit slower but I can't see how places won't be able to deal with it. Cut someone else's wages and you will be fine. Cut costs, increase prices (point out tips are included in the bill and the price won't seem so bad to people there).

I imagine that the richest in the world aren't the ones hiring a lot of minimum wage people though so not really sure it will help balance inequality on that front but it might make a few people's lives a bit easier. This is why I would like it increased a little slower. I would hate for the people hurt by this to be those starting their own businesses. However I am not sure if it will or won't hurt them so I like the test the waters approach.

As for people who might be willing to work for less, if you can't afford minimum wage you can't afford that employee as a company. Seems like a simple system.

HensVassal

Christy42 wrote: »

I think the increase could be brought in a bit slower but I can't see how places won't be able to deal with it. Cut someone else's wages and you will be fine. Cut costs, increase prices (point out tips are included in the bill and the price won't seem so bad to people there).

I imagine that the richest in the world aren't the ones hiring a lot of minimum wage people though so not really sure it will help balance inequality on that front but it might make a few people's lives a bit easier. This is why I would like it increased a little slower. I would hate for the people hurt by this to be those starting their own businesses. However I am not sure if it will or won't hurt them so I like the test the waters approach.

As for people who might be willing to work for less, if you can't afford minimum wage you can't afford that employee as a company. Seems like a simple system.

"you imagine that the rich are not employing minimum wage personnel?" are you high?

Who are the shareholders of fast food and retail corporations?

Iwasfrozen

HensVassal wrote: »

Plastic bags were free but now they're 22c

That's an increase of ∞%

I just shivered.

No, no it isn't.

HensVassal

Coming up next....how offshoring jobs is great for the people.

Christy42

HensVassal wrote: »

"you imagine that the rich are not employing minimum wage personnel?" are you high?

Who are the shareholders of fast food and retail corporations?

Sorry I meant that they are employing less proportionally than smaller businesses. I could be wrong on that but I think of a small business struggling to get by at the start while big businesses will include the likes of Facebook or Intel who have little use for minimum wage employees. Then while manufacting companies are employing shop personal I imagine they are employing a lot more management (and a lot of workers abroad at tiny wages who won't be affected by this).
Like I said I feel a minimum wage should be in place, I am merely unsure of the level it should be at.
Kinda wish there was a way to make big businesses pay a decent wage while the local shop might be able to get away with paying slightly less but I don't see a way.

Valmont

I would really like to know at what level would minimum wage advocates expect a minimum wage to have detrimental effects on the economy. 15, 20, 50, or 100 euro an hour? Take 50 euro an hour; why wouldn't this pay rate increase unemployment? I'm not asking you all to prove a negative but to logically explain why sharply increasing the price of labour wouldn't force business owners to sack staff, hire robots, or increase their prices significantly.

It seems to me those in favour of a minimum wage blindly assume that all business owners are greedy cads who have enough money in their Panamanian accounts to cover any increase in the minimum wage, no matter how high. What I'm really interested in though is the gradual pricing out of the labour market of young and unskilled people. Increasing the minimum wage places them in a higher bracket where they can't compete. A free floating wage means these people can get experience at a price that reflects their true labour value (i.e. not much). If you jack it up legislatively and wipe out the low rate they were paid all of a sudden these people are competing with people with more skills, qualifications, and experience and they are going to lose. Or more likely go to university to study the sociology of seagulls and delay the problem for another four years :P.

KomradeBishop

Simple answer: Nobody argued for a €50 minimum wage.

Cue a few pages worth of "but what if?" wrangling, where people trying to push this angle try to harass posters into accepting the straw-man, of a €50 minimum wage, or a *insert another minimum wage figure nobody argued* wage.

Nobody fúcking argued it - it is a straw man - so nobody has to defend it.

Wibbs

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Simple answer: Nobody argued for a €50 minimum wage. it is a straw man - so nobody has to defend it.

Aye, it's the near definition of one to be fair. And I say that as someone on the fence about increasing min wage. I wouldn't get rid of it, but the cutoff point is where I'd see my personal debate.

Mr. CooL ICE

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Also, take note of the rereg backslappers that start following these posters around - see how their thanks are always inflated by sockpuppet reregs that get banned within a very short time.

Mod:

If you suspect any poster of sockpuppeting, report the posts and try not to derail the thread.

Permabear

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Billy86

Permabear wrote: »

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A cousin of mine works in a bar in New York, and while you do have a very valid point (she's not too far off Times Square and makes obscene amounts on good nights, particularly in the summer on weekends with good weather and sporting events on - a killing!), they might prefer the stability. (edited to add) On a good few other nights, especially weeknights as they are not immediately beside too many offices or in the financial district, and during winter when NY can get to what I can only describe to Irish people as 'make believe' levels of coldness , she can frequently come out with sweet FA. This also causes HR issues, because what shift you are working is massively important and sees everyone from waitresses to kitchen staff and bar-backs turn into bitchy, sniping prima-donna types you'd expect to see backstage at a Broadway play across the street.

For example I worked in sales for a good while and was very good at it, but left it for something that I enjoy more (admin and database mgmt) and aside from no longer having the moral dilemma sales can represent, even though I earn less due to lack of commission, the stability (not just job security, but consistency of pay cheques) is a major, major benefit in my opinion. Knowing on the first day of the month pretty much exactly how much money you will have coming into your bank account before the end of it is not something to be underestimated.

Permabear

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