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Minimum Wage in NY

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    #182
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    On that I agree with you. The quality of the education system predisposes many bloodlines to poverty and low skilled jobs.


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    #183
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,164 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Hang on man you know that's not the way science works. You don't say can you prove it won't and take the lack of proof to be evidence. People here are saying it will. It might be semantics but my issue is with the fact people are saying it would rather than it might.

    The more I read about economics, the more it seems to resemble a kind of logical art than science.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #184
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The more I read about economics, the more it seems to resemble a kind of logical art than science.
    It's exactly that, and that's the exact problem with it - economists generally play with their 'logical art' i.e. economic models, and the models are actually all completely internally mathematically consistent and very elegant.

    The problem with the models, is that they don't match how the real world economy actually works - and economists don't tend to have a good track record of respecting empirical data and fixing the problems with their models - and the BoE link (which I explained in a previous deleted post that you can see), hits the very nub of where the models go wrong (which causes knock-on effects, like getting all of debt, banking, the monetary system, economic crisis prediction, among way more, wrong).


    The problem with the minimum wage debate here, appears to be that posters are anathema to trying out subtle changes or 'experiments' in how the economy is run, and gathering data afterwards, to determine the effects of those changes - however, when the changes/'experiments' match what a posters ideological views are, suddenly they don't give a toss about the likelihood of catastrophic outcomes - they just 'promise' (i.e. make an unproven prediction...) that it'll all be grand...

    The 'concern' over minimum wage increases here, is largely a faux-concern, following the posters preferred ideological lines - where the same posters would have no problem e.g. committing to a massive slash in government budgets, which definitely would lead to a huge unemployment increase - and even want to completely cast-away all/most regulation, as if that wouldn't be a gigantic 'experiment' with far-ranging predictions of very bad outcomes, imposed upon everyone.


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    #185
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Are we going to ignore the tax breaks the SME generally get to offset increased wages or what?


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    #186
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Allinall


    rsh118 wrote: »
    Are we going to ignore the tax breaks the SME generally get to offset increased wages or what?

    What tax breaks would those be?

    I'm not aware of any.


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    #187
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Allinall wrote: »
    What tax breaks would those be?

    I'm not aware of any.

    Google is your friend.

    First result, and quite a few similar.

    http://www.nystateofpolitics.com/2016/03/cuomo-tax-cuts-will-offset-minimum-wage-hike/


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    #188
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Allinall


    rsh118 wrote: »
    Google is your friend.

    First result, and quite a few similar.

    My apologies.

    For some inexplicable reason I thought you were referring to Irish pay and taxes.


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    #189
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #190
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Allinall wrote: »
    My apologies.

    For some inexplicable reason I thought you were referring to Irish pay and taxes.

    God no, SMEs here get it up the hole, but where there is a hike like this in NY generally there is some sort of tax break to make it up and/or a graduated phase-in.


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    #191
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    My back of the envelope figures maybe casual but they are a hell of a lot more realistic than your crystal ball predictions. The same argument is spat out time and again whenever the minimum wage is increased. People such as yourself bang on that jobs will be wiped out as a result of an increase whether that increase is 5 cents or 5 dollars and you're always wrong.


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    #192
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #193
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's exactly what he's trying to say, I'll wager. You definitely haven't intentionally misunderstood and taken his argument to ridiculous lengthsz


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    #194
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #195
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If I read correctly it will be phased in, therefore it's not an instant $5 jump, but a phase in which will likely do very little to NY business considering she tax breaks which accompany it.


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    #196
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    watching you flail about and the low rent tactics that you use to proffer a "cogent" argument is an embarrassment.


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    #197
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Will unemployment definitely rise with minimum wage introductions?

    We increased minimum wage here and unemployment is still dropping. I'd guess that changing minimum wage would just be one part of the puzzle though.


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    #198
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    We increased minimum wage here and unemployment is still dropping. I'd guess that changing minimum wage would just be one part of the puzzle though.

    Exactly there are many many variables. It's not simply a matter of money out of business and more money into employers pockets. Will the increase in wage lead to an increase in spending for instance? We don't know yet.


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    #199
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #200
    FatherTed
    Registered Users Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭FatherTed


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    FYI In NY, for small business with less than 11 employees, the change is over 4 years so they would have time to plan and adapt. If a small business was successful, they would likely have given the increases to the employees over a 4 year period anyway.


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    #201
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    why didn't you call out the 52k number? You were happy to let that sh1t slide weren't you?


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    #202
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    wait just a minute!!!!
    In what restaurant was this where your aforementioned waitresses made tips ALSO made the minimum wage? And I thought the highest minimum wage in the world was Australia at $10.x


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    #203
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I've never read the Mankiw book. It's £56 on Amazon and over 600 pages long so I'm not going to either.

    in sure a library would gladly lend it to you if you are such an expert in economics but so strapped for cash.


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    #204
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,164 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    HensVassal wrote: »
    in sure a library would gladly lend it to you if you are such an expert in economics but so strapped for cash.

    Why the need to be so abrasive. I have stated very clearly that I am not an expert in economics.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #205
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,164 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I was. Thank you!

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #206
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    rsh118 wrote: »
    Are we going to ignore the tax breaks the SME generally get to offset increased wages or what?

    I'm not au fait with that.

    I do know Government pays a hell of a lot of subsidies to offset low wages currently. My take would be, while Ireland pays a massive amount of social transfers to individuals like child benefit, we also pay a hefty social transfer to business, Family Income Supplement and jobsearch or whatever you call it!

    Politically, we'll top up anybodies wages to make employment attractive, if that's individuals or companies, we don't really care.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #207
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'm not au fait with that.

    I do know Government pays a hell of a lot of subsidies to offset low wages currently. My take would be, while Ireland pays a massive amount of social transfers to individuals like child benefit, we also pay a hefty social transfer to business, Family Income Supplement and jobsearch or whatever you call it!

    Politically, we'll top up anybodies wages to make employment attractive, if that's individuals or companies, we don't really care.

    I'm referring to the NY situation directly there in that one.

    Generally though with a minimum wage rise there is some sort of tax break for SME which is recouped in additional income tax. At least partially.


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    #208
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    rsh118 wrote: »
    God no, SMEs here get it up the hole, but where there is a hike like this in NY generally there is some sort of tax break to make it up and/or a graduated phase-in.

    They still have it better than in a lot of other 1st world nations. 12.5% tax on your profits isn't too bad.


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    #209
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    lol The company I work in is a member of IBEC, got several almost e-mails in the past few months (which are the type they probably send to all members) banging on almost in a hysterical manner against the 0.50 increase as if it's the end of the road for private business in Ireland.


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    #210
    rsh118
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    It entertains me how the things you read in Paul Howard's columns are actually scarily accurate.


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    #211
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    You tell us. If economics were a science it would have a decisive formula and there'd be no debate. We'd use the formula, see that increasing min wage to $16 caused unemployment while $14:50 did not. Since we know (contra to Econ 101) that countries with min wage do have full employment all we can do is try out fairly low increases.

    If aggregate demand increases I can't even understand capitalist opposition.


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