Awesome & Inclusive: Running in Multilcultural Ireland

demfad

Icepick wrote: »

It's almost funny that people don't realize how patronizing celebrating someone running in a hijab actually is.
Noble savage level of thinking basically.

Your own words, but I doubt if anyone is 'celebrating' that these women are wearing hijabs. What is relatively positive is that these hijab wearing women are now running. (People who don't know the difference between relative and absolute must laugh a lot)

demfad

ThisRegard wrote: »

Tallaght lost their working class heritage once Oisin and Cú Chulainn ACs sold out and amalgamated in pursuit of fancy facilities.

Something that I have been wondering about is that early in the thread someone said that mountain running is a middle class sport because of its location. Do you mean because people have to travel to the races by car, I'm not quite sure what was meant.

Yes that's what I meant and I was probably mainly talking about Leinster. Irish mountain running also seemed to have its roots in orienteering. Munster is more mixed. In Ulster most of them are from Newcastle.
Mountain running is very welcoming and the car pooling has great potential to alleviate transport issues. Also there are reductions for OAPs and those on the dole. I remember at one AGM the comittee had a poor idea about reducing numbers by increasing the entrance fee. This was aggressively opposed (by Enduro.). If Enduro had adopted the 'every man for himself' world view epoused here by some, many people would be priced out of IMRA races, and €7 a race would be a pipe-dream.

I wasnt trying to single (Leinster) Mountain running out, its just the scene I am most familiar with. The structures are there to facilitate a lot of inclusion, the communication channels may be missing.

davedanon

demfad wrote: »

re. the bolded section: are you claiming that only members of Crusaders AC can debate this issue here? Or are you saying that we can all debate it?

You said that the significance of the name escaped you and you now see the discussion has merit. Fair enough. But why do you think it has merit? Is it that you now see the possibility that Muslims may find/have found the name objectionable enough to stop them joining the club? If not then what other reason?
If so then why single myself and Enduro out? There are others who also see something in this point including at least one current Crusaders member.

If discussion is good, then allow people to discuss.

P.S. Glad you feel now that the discussion has more merit than 'land-fill'.

The 'land-fill' comment had a lot more to do with the thread-starter, than the topic. Of course he's taken an active part in the ensuing debate since. Oh wait, no he hasn't (this being my point).

I don't think I said the debate should be confined to Crusaders members. I think I said the ultimate decision is for Crusaders members. Really the whole thing should be confined to A) Crusaders, and local Muslims who might want to join, but who might be put off by the name. Then it would be up to the club to demonstrate that they are inclusive (as we've all agreed that they are), and whether they would want to demonstrate same to their new members by changing the name.

It has nothing really to do with the professional offence-takers.

davedanon

ThisRegard wrote: »

Tallaght lost their working class heritage once Oisin and Cú Chulainn ACs sold out and amalgamated in pursuit of fancy facilities.

Can't let this go unchallenged. Just what do you mean by this?

dna_leri

I did not realize we were so class and religion conscious in athletics.
Is this a Dublin thing only?
In my experience, there is not this distinction 'beyond the pale'.

I do not know to which religion or class most of my clubmates belong and I don't really care.
There are people from all walks of life and they join clubs because they want to run.

There is diversity in the larger towns and this is reflected in participation levels of ethnic minorities in all sports. From what I see athletics does this well at juvenile level and we should see some of that talent coming through on the international level soon.

ThisRegard

davedanon wrote: »

Can't let this go unchallenged. Just what do you mean by this?

It was a piss take. One of Oisin ACs meeting place was around the shops between Fettercairn and Springfield during the 80s, pretty big working class areas, and used the fields at Jobstown/Brookfield for the kids, with a decent size of its membership made up of locals. They got together with Cú Chulainn later as it made sense financially and in terms of members (hazy on the details these days) and eventually moved towards the village. West Tallaght was left to soccer and GAA, as for juniors getting to and from Tallaght Village wasn't always the easiest.

I'm not being critical, just an observation.

jackofalltrades

Enduro wrote: »

Both the term and the symolism of the crusaders remains offensive in large parts of the world.

And again, has any Muslim runner actual said that they didn't or wouldn't join the club due to it's name?

Do you not see the irony in wanting to protect Muslims from offence, due to a military campaign that was in direct response to violent Islamic expansion.

demfad

davedanon wrote: »

I don't think I said the debate should be confined to Crusaders members. I think I said the ultimate decision is for Crusaders members. Really the whole thing should be confined to A) Crusaders, and local Muslims who might want to join, but who might be put off by the name. Then it would be up to the club to demonstrate that they are inclusive (as we've all agreed that they are), and whether they would want to demonstrate same to their new members by changing the name.

It has nothing really to do with the professional offence-takers.

So just to clarify: the debate shouldn't be confined to Crusaders members but should be confined to local Crusaders members and Muslims who might want to join. So no-one on boards can debate this........with Enduro and I getting a straight red card?

Can we see your refereeing qualifications Dave?

(I must compliment you though it's highly unusual for a flipflop to occur within a few lines on the one post!)

davedanon wrote: »

The 'land-fill' comment had a lot more to do with the thread-starter, than the topic. Of course he's taken an active part in the ensuing debate since. Oh wait, no he hasn't (this being my point).

As the below vvvv post was only the 5th post on the thread "your point" simply cant have been about the thread starter not taking part in the thread. Although this is a more traditional flip-flop it also enters the realms of utter waffle.

davedanon wrote: »

Yet more Boards landfill.

Can we leave the personals out now Dave?

Enduro

jackofalltrades wrote: »

And again, has any Muslim runner actual said that they didn't or wouldn't join the club due to it's name?

Do we really have to wait for it to happen, or could we not use some intellignece and (gasp) empathy to anticipate it. Personally, and in general I'd like to think that I don't need to wait around until someone is actually offended if I can anticipate in advance that something is needlessly offensive and do something about it pre-emptively.

I know of one atheist runner who has said that they didn't and wouldn't join the club due to this factor.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Do you not see the irony in wanting to protect Muslims from offence, due to a military campaign that was in direct response to violent Islamic expansion.

Yes I do. But I don't care (to say the least) about who wins the "well he started it!" argument. Personally I don't think its a good idea to name an athletics club after ANY military campaign, or have ANY religious iconography associated with it.

Enduro

dna_leri wrote: »

Is this a Dublin thing only?
In my experience, there is not this distinction 'beyond the pale'.

Broadening out from athletics, it was when I was growing up. In my town there were two scout troops. One non-demonational, one catholic, for example. That crap has been done away with since.

Chivito550

ThisRegard wrote: »

Tallaght lost their working class heritage once Oisin and Cú Chulainn ACs sold out and amalgamated in pursuit of fancy facilities.

Something that I have been wondering about is that early in the thread someone said that mountain running is a middle class sport because of its location. Do you mean because people have to travel to the races by car, I'm not quite sure what was meant.

It's ridiculous how Anglosphere countries value wealth and success based on having a car, and using that car. In such countries, taking a bus or train, or cycling is sort of seen as a sign that you have not "made it", particularly in the US. Compare that to continental Europe where the richest people will travel to work by bike, tram or train, and might not necessarily ever need to use a car. Slightly off topic rant.

demfad

dna_leri wrote: »

I did not realize we were so class and religion conscious in athletics.
Is this a Dublin thing only?
In my experience, there is not this distinction 'beyond the pale'.

I do not know to which religion or class most of my clubmates belong and I don't really care.
There are people from all walks of life and they join clubs because they want to run.

There is diversity in the larger towns and this is reflected in participation levels of ethnic minorities in all sports. From what I see athletics does this well at juvenile level and we should see some of that talent coming through on the international level soon.

I dont think it's an issue of differing attitudes, just differing demographics.
Dublin has many large areas which don't have clubs.
Large Irish towns might be the equivalent (population wise) of one of these areas at best (20-70,000). Therefore all of the amenities (including ACs), are available in each town and accessable to all in the town. The town population is a lot more diverse and integrated than one of these Dublin areas, as everyone lives together in the town.

This is not the case in Dublin where amenities might be more available in certain (more affluent possibly) areas.

Not to do with people's attitudes IMO, more to do with the local demographics.

ThisRegard

Chivito550 wrote: »

It's ridiculous how Anglosphere countries value wealth and success based on having a car, and using that car. In such countries, taking a bus or train, or cycling is sort of seen as a sign that you have not "made it", particularly in the US. Compare that to continental Europe where the richest people will travel to work by bike, tram or train, and might not necessarily ever need to use a car. Slightly off topic rant.

The thing is car ownership doesn't denote rich or poor, or classes, these days, as they're so affordable.

Enduro

davedanon wrote: »

I don't think I said the debate should be confined to Crusaders members. I think I said the ultimate decision is for Crusaders members. Really the whole thing should be confined to A) Crusaders, and local Muslims who might want to join, but who might be put off by the name. Then it would be up to the club to demonstrate that they are inclusive (as we've all agreed that they are), and whether they would want to demonstrate same to their new members by changing the name.

It has nothing really to do with the professional offence-takers.

For the record, I think I broadly agree with your main point. Of course it us up to Crusaders members to decide. I've been communicating my point to people I know in the club for a long time for that very reason. One caveat I would add is that the membership do conclude that the name is offensive to potential members, and but decide to retain the name and symbols despite this, then I would certainly change my opinion about the club being inclusive in reality (And again, my assumption is that the reality on the ground is that the club is absolutely fully inclusive right now).

Enduro

ThisRegard wrote: »

The thing is car ownership doesn't denote rich or poor, or classes, these days, as they're so affordable.

Totally off topic, but if anything commuting/traveling by bike these days is a middle class activity.

davedanon

demfad wrote: »

So just to clarify: the debate shouldn't be confined to Crusaders members but should be confined to local Crusaders members and Muslims who might want to join. So no-one on boards can debate this........with Enduro and I getting a straight red card?

Can we see your refereeing qualifications Dave?

(I must compliment you though it's highly unusual for a flipflop to occur within a few lines on the one post!)



As the below vvvv post was only the 5th post on the thread "your point" simply cant have been about the thread starter not taking part in the thread. Although this is a more traditional flip-flop it also enters the realms of utter waffle.



Can we leave the personals out now Dave?

To take your points, such as they are, in random order, although perhaps in terms of escalating levels of exasperation-inducement.

1) The thread-starter has form for this. He always starts threads and leaves them lying around like hand-grenades. Your 'waffle' comment is completely unnecessary, and constitutes 'getting personal', ironically enough.

2)
There is a difference between the words 'debate', and 'decision'. Do you see that? I said anyone could debate, but only Crusaders could, or should, decide. You are entitled to your opinion. I do not believe you (or anyone) are entitled to write to Crusaders demanding a name change on behalf of parties who might take offence.

3) You and enduro getting a straight red? You're singling yourself out. I didn't.

4) This is the third occasion on which you've accused other posters of 'getting personal' and the third occasion it's been completely unfounded.

If anything, it's you getting personal. I'm considering reporting you for it.

demfad

davedanon wrote: »

I do not believe you (or anyone) are entitled to write to Crusaders demanding a name change on behalf of parties who might take offence.

When did I or anyone suggest writing to Crusaders demanding a club name-change? You're clearly just making this up now.

You and enduro getting a straight red? You're singling yourself out. I didn't.

You had already singling myself and Enduro out by name. Are you now trying to pretend that your 'professional offence takers' comment was somehow aimed at someone else?

If anything, it's you getting personal. I'm considering reporting you for it.

Good man. Advertising it here is dramatic but not part of the drill I believe.

davedanon

demfad wrote: »

When did I or anyone suggest writing to Crusaders demanding a club name-change? You're clearly just making this up now.

I didn't say you did. Can't you understand English?

demfad wrote: »

You had already singling myself and Enduro out by name. Are you now trying to pretend that your 'professional offence takers' comment was somehow aimed at someone else?

Why wouldn't it be? There was a general discussion about the subject taking place, I believe, during which people referred to the current trend for taking offence on other people's behalf. It's not all about you, my friend. Once again you are reading things into other's posts which are simply not there.

TFBubendorfer

<mod>I think that's enough *sigh*</mod>