Awesome & Inclusive: Running in Multilcultural Ireland

uvox

Totally awesome to see female members of the Dublin Islamic community out there running in Dublin 8!

What a tribute to the inclusiveness of our sport and activity to see female runners in hijabs and running shoes putting down some miles along the canal.



Again, who cares who you are, what you are, or what you wear. We're all runners.

It's sights like this, where ever you encounter them, that transcend differences and make the place better for everyone and show the potential for running in the community.

Given the season that's in it as we're celebrating what it means to live on this Island, it almost brings a tear to my eye.

Go for it, Sisters!

Good feature on the subject of Muslim women and sport in the Irish Times a while ago reminded me of all this: Hijabs and Hat-tricks. Hijabs and Half-Marathons too!

Chivito550

uvox wrote: »

Totally awesome to see female members of the Dublin Islamic community out there running in Dublin 8!

What a tribute to the inclusiveness of our sport and activity to see female runners in hijabs and running shoes putting down some miles along the canal.



Again, who cares who you are, what you are, or what you wear. We're all runners.

It's sights like this, where ever you encounter them, that transcend differences and make the place better for everyone and show the potential for running in the community.

Given the season that's in it as we're celebrating what it means to live on this Island, it almost brings a tear to my eye.

Go for it, Sisters!

Good feature on the subject of Muslim women and sport in the Irish Times a while ago reminded me of all this: Hijabs and Hat-tricks. Hijabs and Half-Marathons too!

Complete OTT stuff here. Hassiba Boulmerka, a Muslim woman from Algeria, won 1500m gold at the 1992 Olympic Games, the first to accomplish this feat, with others following since. Muslim women competing in sport is common these days. Sure in some incredibly backward countries it is still an issue, but not in Ireland, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid to seeing somebody from another cultural background out running around Dublin.

Totally unnecessary thread IMO.

demfad

uvox wrote: »

Totally awesome to see female members of the Dublin Islamic community out there running in Dublin 8!

What a tribute to the inclusiveness of our sport and activity to see female runners in hijabs and running shoes putting down some miles along the canal.



Again, who cares who you are, what you are, or what you wear. We're all runners.

It's sights like this, where ever you encounter them, that transcend differences and make the place better for everyone and show the potential for running in the community.

Given the season that's in it as we're celebrating what it means to live on this Island, it almost brings a tear to my eye.

Go for it, Sisters!

Good feature on the subject of Muslim women and sport in the Irish Times a while ago reminded me of all this: Hijabs and Hat-tricks. Hijabs and Half-Marathons too!

Thanks for that. Never seen a woman running in a Jihab in Ireland before.
They will be surfing next!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2937668/Hanging-ten-Iran-Irish-woman-brought-surfing-one-world-s-deadliest-coasts-conservative-Muslim-country.html

walshb

Boulmerka? Stick a Jihab on her and see how well she does!

davedanon

Yet more Boards landfill.

demfad

I would have thought this thread has plenty of potential to open a discussion about demographics of Irish runners both outside and inside clubs, elite and non-elite:

For example is anyone aware of any muslim women (or men) in the Irish club scene?
Extending from that how about other minorities?
Drilling even further in what demographic actually are the vast majority of runners?
Is it a middle class sport now in Ireland, for example?
Is it different at the elite end..presumable a little different?
From observation the sport of Irish mountain running in general terms is middle class but that may be because of the relatively remote locations.
Not a criticism just an observation.
Is the Irish running scene really inclusive?

average_runner

demfad wrote: »

I would have thought this thread has plenty of potential to open a discussion about demographics of Irish runners both outside and inside clubs, elite and non-elite:

For example is anyone aware of any muslim women (or men) in the Irish club scene?
Extending from that how about other minorities?
Drilling even further in what demographic actually are the vast majority of runners?
Is it a middle class sport now in Ireland, for example?
Is it different at the elite end..presumable a little different?
From observation the sport of Irish mountain running in general terms is middle class but that may be because of the relatively remote locations.
Not a criticism just an observation.
Is the Irish running scene really inclusive?

Its not something I care about when running with people, basically the way I see it, we are all on the track to train together and help each other, you could be poor or rich, catholic or any other belief. Once I help to get the max out of you and vice versa.

demfad

average_runner wrote: »

Its not something I care about when running with people, basically the way I see it, we are all on the track to train together and help each other, you could be poor or rich, catholic or any other belief. Once I help to get the max out of you and vice versa.

Yes. It doesn't generally cross my mind when I'm training on the track with people either. You weren't running with anyone when you typed your message though (hopefully) so I'd be interested in hearing your views on the points I raised.

RayCun

yeah, possibly interesting discussion

demfad wrote: »

For example is anyone aware of any muslim women (or men) in the Irish club scene?

not that I know of

demfad wrote: »

Extending from that how about other minorities?

there are some black kids competing in juvenile track and field/cross country, but far fewer adults in the equivalent races, as far as I can see

demfad wrote: »

Drilling even further in what demographic actually are the vast majority of runners?
Is it a middle class sport now in Ireland, for example?
Is it different at the elite end..presumable a little different?
From observation the sport of Irish mountain running in general terms is middle class but that may be because of the relatively remote locations.
Not a criticism just an observation.
Is the Irish running scene really inclusive?

I think one issue is that the established clubs tend to be in areas that are now middle-class-ish. And maybe middle-class parents are more likely to drive their kids to a club that is further away? Training for schools competition is going to be easier in schools that have access to facilities (even if that is only 'nearby, safe green space')

Enduro

I think one paricular club has a serious issue when it comes inclusivity, which is Crusaders. I've been saying for many many years that they should change their name precisely because of this, and I personally decided not to join the club because of the name (many years ago, when it seemed like nearly every runner I knew was a member of the club).

Whilst I agree that running in general tends towards having middle class participation at the moment, I don't thanks that that is anything more than the current state of play. There's plenty of exceptions (including in Hillrunning Demfad).

Coffee Fulled Runner

Enduro wrote: »

I think one paricular club has a serious issue when it comes inclusivity, which is Crusaders. I've been saying for many many years that they should change their name precisely because of this, and I personally decided not to join the club because of the name (many years ago, when it seemed like nearly every runner I knew was a member of the club).

Whilst I agree that running in general tends towards having middle class participation at the moment, I don't thanks that that is anything more than the current state of play. There's plenty of exceptions (including in Hillrunning Demfad).

Not sure if you are taking the piss or not but it would be ridiculous for a club to change its name in case it offended anyone. PC nonsense getting offended on behalf of someone who might be offended

Enduro

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

Not sure if you are taking the piss or not but it would be ridiculous for a club to change its name in case it offended anyone. PC nonsense getting offended on behalf of someone who might be offended

Using a purely theoretical, but in my view directly equivalent, example would it be PC nonsense to find the name of "Kill all Taigs A.C." objectionalable?

Can you not see why the use of a term which literaly by definition means a holy war fought against the Muslim religion might not be the most welcoming thing to Muslims

Chivito550

demfad wrote: »

I would have thought this thread has plenty of potential to open a discussion about demographics of Irish runners both outside and inside clubs, elite and non-elite:

For example is anyone aware of any muslim women (or men) in the Irish club scene?
Extending from that how about other minorities?
Drilling even further in what demographic actually are the vast majority of runners?
Is it a middle class sport now in Ireland, for example?
Is it different at the elite end..presumable a little different?
From observation the sport of Irish mountain running in general terms is middle class but that may be because of the relatively remote locations.
Not a criticism just an observation.
Is the Irish running scene really inclusive?

From being involved in track and field, and sprinting in particular, I see tons of runners of African heritage competing. I would see athletics as a very inclusive sport. It's just not all that popular a sport among the general public, so you are probably less likely to see people involved from cultures that have no great interest in the sport.

In Melbourne, the athletics scene had people from all cultural backgrounds. More so than here, but that's just down to Australia being a far more multicultural country than European nations (for obvious reasons).

I see no issue with inclusiveness in our sport. If somebody wants to run then they are welcome. I haven't noticed anything to the contrary.

In a way, the OP making a huge deal about muslim women out running, he is engaging in positive discrimination, something which I detest. Why should they be praised for running? And why should the sport be praised for having them involved? The former is what humans do to keep fit, regardless of cultural background, and the latter is to be expected, not something to be praised.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

yeah, possibly interesting discussion



not that I know of



there are some black kids competing in juvenile track and field/cross country, but far fewer adults in the equivalent races, as far as I can see



I think one issue is that the established clubs tend to be in areas that are now middle-class-ish. And maybe middle-class parents are more likely to drive their kids to a club that is further away? Training for schools competition is going to be easier in schools that have access to facilities (even if that is only 'nearby, safe green space')

Agreed. Inner city based clubs should actually promote themselves as a club for the 20-somethings, from Ireland and abroad. Young people from abroad in particular tend to live close to the city centre, and rely on public transport. We had a super sprinter from Spain in our group for awhile, and he'd come to the sessions at Irishtown, but never out to the ridiculously far flung location where we would do hills. The likes of Crusaders and Donore could really promote itself to the 20-somethings from abroad and have far more success than clubs based way out of the city centre.

When I lived in Melbourne, I joined one of the very few inner city based clubs. There are only about 4 clubs there now in the inner suburban area. The rest are out in the middle and outer suburbs and would never attract somebody like myself who moved to a new city, lived close to the city centre and relied 100% on public transport.

demfad

Chivito550 wrote: »

Agreed. Inner city based clubs should actually promote themselves as a club for the 20-somethings, from Ireland and abroad. Young people from abroad in particular tend to live close to the city centre, and rely on public transport. We had a super sprinter from Spain in our group for awhile, and he'd come to the sessions at Irishtown, but never out to the ridiculously far flung location where we would do hills. The likes of Crusaders and Donore could really promote itself to the 20-somethings from abroad and have far more success than clubs based way out of the city centre.

That's a fair point. In general a lot of clubs are welcoming. However, the communication circles for (e.g.) young people from abroad may not intersect with those of the general demographic where runners have traditionally come from. Word of mouth wouldn't reach these groups for example.
That would mean that for clubs to be truly inclusive (and potentially successful as you say) they would have to be more pro-active in seeking out and communicating with these groups.
No point in being welcoming at the door if the invitation isn't really reaching them.

Wild Garlic

I was once a member of Parnell AC, had to get out though, bloody home rulers.

davedanon

In Tallaght we have a few black kids (sprinters, of course), and we did have two senior members from the sub-continent (I'm not actually sure if India or Pakistan), but one has now moved to the UK. Running is overwhelmingly a white sport in Ireland, though, it must be said. I don't mean that in a negative way, but obviously it would be nice if the running demographic reflected the national racial mix. What does hearten me, to look at it another way, is the increasing incidence of lads, again most likely from the sub-continent, that you see out having an off-the-cuff game of cricket. These people's kids will one day play for Ireland. I think that's fantastic, just like one or two of our sprinters in Tallaght are making a name for themselves nationally.

Chivito550

demfad wrote: »

That's a fair point. In general a lot of clubs are welcoming. However, the communication circles for (e.g.) young people from abroad may not intersect with those of the general demographic where runners have traditionally come from. Word of mouth wouldn't reach these groups for example.
That would mean that for clubs to be truly inclusive (and potentially successful as you say) they would have to be more pro-active in seeking out and communicating with these groups.
No point in being welcoming at the door if the invitation isn't really reaching them.

Well yeh, but that’s just athletics in Ireland in general. Poorly promoted. The promotion towards foreign people from different cultures and the promotion towards Irish people is equally bad.

PaulieC

RayCun wrote: »

I think one issue is that the established clubs tend to be in areas that are now middle-class-ish.

Like those famously middle-class areas Ringsend and Tallaght ? :rolleyes:

Enduro wrote: »

I think one paricular club has a serious issue when it comes inclusivity, which is Crusaders. I've been saying for many many years that they should change their name precisely because of this

WTAF ? Do you actually think they are non-inclusive because of their name or are you just looking for a rise ?

RayCun

not to get too far off-topic, but there were debates in my own club about the club name and political baggage. The reference is obvious if you think about it, but afaik most people don't. (I was in the club a year at least before my "oh yeah!" moment, but I'm slow on the uptake ) 'Crusaders' is a lot more obvious, especially with that badge.

But I don't know if it does put people off. And I'm sure any suggestion to change the club name would be massively divisive, such an enormous break with the past...

davedanon

PaulieC wrote: »

Like those famously middle-class areas Ringsend and Tallaght ? :rolleyes:

Oi! We became middle-class when we got de fookin' Square, pal.

davedanon

RayCun wrote: »

not to get too far off-topic, but there were debates in my own club about the club name and political baggage. The reference is obvious if you think about it, but afaik most people don't. (I was in the club a year at least before my "oh yeah!" moment, but I'm slow on the uptake ) 'Crusaders' is a lot more obvious, especially with that badge.

But I don't know if it does put people off. And I'm sure any suggestion to change the club name would be massively divisive, such an enormous break with the past...

Change it to Sisters Pearse for real. Job done!

demfad

Chivito550 wrote: »

Well yeh, but that’s just athletics in Ireland in general. Poorly promoted. The promotion towards foreign people from different cultures and the promotion towards Irish people is equally bad.

My point is that the 20 somethings from home are at least exposed to the message to a degree, the 20 somethings from abroad less so it seems.
If inner city clubs want to target and include 20 somethings from abroad, then how do they achieve this?

Coffee Fulled Runner

Enduro wrote: »

Using a purely theoretical, but in my view directly equivalent, example would it be PC nonsense to find the name of "Kill all Taigs A.C." objectionalable?

Can you not see why the use of a term which literaly by definition means a holy war fought against the Muslim religion might not be the most welcoming thing to Muslims

I know what you're saying but I disagree. If members want to change the name then that's business if a Muslim community wanted to call a club jihad AC let them too. Live and let live, life is too short to be looking for battles around every corner.

demfad

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

I know what you're saying but I disagree. If members want to change the name then that's business if a Muslim community wanted to call a club jihad AC let them too. Live and let live, life is too short to be looking for battles around every corner.

Live and let live, but go set up a Muslim club if you've a problem with our Christian one?
Not very inclusive is it.

Chivito550

demfad wrote: »

My point is that the 20 somethings from home are at least exposed to the message to a degree, the 20 somethings from abroad less so it seems.
If inner city clubs want to target and include 20 somethings from abroad, then how do they achieve this?

I agree with you completely, and I've actually just messaged my former club back in Melbourne suggesting they target people on working holiday visas. Putting up flyers in hostels is a great way to catch people's attentions as most people who live there start off in hostels until they get their bearings. Not sure what the scene is like here. I don't know if people who move to Ireland do likewise until the are ready to find a place to live, but it's an idea for sure.

Coffee Fulled Runner

Where did I say that demfad?

Dubgal72

Tell me Crusaders were founded with the Cambridge definition in mind??

"› [C] a ​long and ​determined ​attempt to ​achieve something that you ​believe in ​strongly:
They have ​long been ​involved in a crusade for ​racial ​equality.
a ​moral crusade against ​drugs"

Sacksian

Generally, my observation is that running clubs do reflect the diversity of their local community, particularly at juvenile level. So, clubs that draw from areas which have muslim populations nearby have muslim kids in the club and the same goes for the socio-economic profile (based on what I see).

Most clubs have oversubscribed juvenile sections though and the adult recruitment issue is a question of resources, mainly time, which will depend on volunteers. Most clubs don't have a surplus of volunteering time that can go into adult recruitment - the juvenile section is the future of most clubs.

walshb

demfad wrote: »

Live and let live, but go set up a Muslim club if you've a problem with our Christian one?
Not very inclusive is it.

It's very inclusive. It's giving people options to pick and choose.

PaulieC

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Tell me Crusaders were founded with the Cambridge definition in mind??

"› [C] a ​long and ​determined ​attempt to ​achieve something that you ​believe in ​strongly:
They have ​long been ​involved in a crusade for ​racial ​equality.
a ​moral crusade against ​drugs"

I would imagine that was the idea, but that doesn't explain the cross emblem(unless you could go down the etymological path and then it's pretty hard to separate), but I doubt very much whether the founding fathers had killing Muslims in mind when they started the club.

ultrapercy

davedanon wrote: »

In Tallaght we have a few black kids (sprinters, of course), and we did have two senior members from the sub-continent (I'm not actually sure if India or Pakistan), but one has now moved to the UK. Running is overwhelmingly a white sport in Ireland, though, it must be said. I don't mean that in a negative way, but obviously it would be nice if the running demographic reflected the national racial mix. What does hearten me, to look at it another way, is the increasing incidence of lads, again most likely from the sub-continent, that you see out having an off-the-cuff game of cricket. These people's kids will one day play for Ireland. I think that's fantastic, just like one or two of our sprinters in Tallaght are making a name for themselves nationally.

When you said sub continent I thought you were going to say Kildare.

walshb

Inclusivity breeds mediocrity!

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

Generally, my observation is that running clubs do reflect the diversity of their local community, particularly at juvenile level. So, clubs that draw from areas which have muslim populations nearby have muslim kids in the club and the same goes for the socio-economic profile (based on what I see).

Most clubs have oversubscribed juvenile sections though and the adult recruitment issue is a question of resources, mainly time, which will depend on volunteers. Most clubs don't have a surplus of volunteering time that can go into adult recruitment - the juvenile section is the future of most clubs.

Problem there is that most juveniles will quit the sport before adulthood. This will inevitably keep happening. So to be honest they aren't really the future of a club, only part of the future. Adult recruitment is hugely important. I was an adult taking up the sport. There are plenty of others who are the same. The disproportionate level of focus on juveniles in this country (you see it at provincial championships where adults are a mere afterthought) gives the impression that adults aren't seen as all that important. Not exactly something that might attract a 20-something in.

ultrapercy

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Tell me Crusaders were founded with the Cambridge definition in mind??

"› [C] a ​long and ​determined ​attempt to ​achieve something that you ​believe in ​strongly:
They have ​long been ​involved in a crusade for ​racial ​equality.
a ​moral crusade against ​drugs"

Correct, this common sense thing will never catch on though. My advice to you is to deny it at every turn and abandon it if possible it can only cause you to be uninclused. (I thought I made up a word there but spellchecker seems to know it allready, smarter than meself he/she is)

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Problem there is that most juveniles will quit the sport before adulthood. This will inevitably keep happening. So to be honest they aren't really the future of a club, only part of the future.

They are (not completely but overwhelmingly) the future of high performance in the club, and (not c but o) the future of track and field in the club, and especially the future of the overlap. How many senior national medal winners took up athletics as seniors? And how many in events other than distance running?

Juvenile members take up most coaching time, though, because they have to. The ratio of coaches per kid, requirements for facilities, and the range of events each kid will do, demands a lot of coaching time. It isn't all "I believe the children are our future", it's just what you have to do if you're going to have a juvenile section

Peterx

IMRA (the mountain runners) aren't even a club and spend inordinate amounts of time and money on juniors, nearly all of whom disappear and never run as seniors.
It is something you have to do, as they are literally the future. Sometimes..

Enduro

PaulieC wrote: »

I would imagine that was the idea, but that doesn't explain the cross emblem(unless you could go down the etymological path and then it's pretty hard to separate), but I doubt very much whether the founding fathers had killing Muslims in mind when they started the club.

Yup the Crusader's cross emblem is a bit of a snag if you're trying to escape the association with the holy war against the Muslims.

I too would doubt that the founding fathers had killing Muslims in mind. Given the age of the club I'd imagine it would have been more along the DeValera "catholic country for a catholic people" type of thinking. Relgion got tied up into all sorts of things in this country where it shouldn't belong ("The Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland", for example, hospitals, schools etc etc), and athletics certainly wasn't immune to it. Religion can be divisive though, so IMHO it's good to break with those connections (So we now have the more inclusive "Scouting Ireland" for example).

I don't doubt the orginals intentions behind the original naming of the club were good. However I think we're leaving that era behind. In modern Ireland nobody who wasn't Islamophic would be likely to set up any club with the same name or symbolism, with good reason.

Enduro

PaulieC wrote: »

WTAF ? Do you actually think they are non-inclusive because of their name or are you just looking for a rise ?

To be precise I think the name itself (and the Crusader's cross symbol) is non-inclusive. I would assume that the club itself (And every Irish Athletics club I've come accross) is totally inclusive.

Enduro

RayCun wrote: »

not to get too far off-topic, but there were debates in my own club about the club name and political baggage. The reference is obvious if you think about it, but afaik most people don't. (I was in the club a year at least before my "oh yeah!" moment, but I'm slow on the uptake ) 'Crusaders' is a lot more obvious, especially with that badge.

But I don't know if it does put people off. And I'm sure any suggestion to change the club name would be massively divisive, such an enormous break with the past...

For reference, when I was looking to join a club, and your club was probably the geographically closest to my home at the time, I ruled it out because of the name.

Agree totally that name changes can be divisive. But names and symbols can in themselves be divisive. An Irish person should get this fairly easily (What's your reaction to the name "Londonderry").

RayCun

yeah, I can understand it, and there were debates about it

but (apart from the expense!) changing the name of the club would mean cutting ourselves off from all the people who have run for that club name in the past.

I'd never suggest this as a name for a new club (though I'd like something more imaginative than "Location AC" or "Location Harriers AC" ) but I don't think it's a big enough problem that I'd want to change the name.

Enduro

RayCun wrote: »

but (apart from the expense!) changing the name of the club would mean cutting ourselves off from all the people who have run for that club name in the past.

I don't think that's necessarily true though. I doubt the residents of Volgograd feel cut off from their WWII history just because the name of the city changed, for example. AAI itself has gone through multiple name changes (and more) without loosing any historical connections to the past

demfad

Enduro wrote: »

Yup the Crusader's cross emblem is a bit of a snag if you're trying to escape the association with the holy war against the Muslims.

I too would doubt that the founding fathers had killing Muslims in mind. Given the age of the club I'd imagine it would have been more along the DeValera "catholic country for a catholic people" type of thinking. Relgion got tied up into all sorts of things in this country where it shouldn't belong ("The Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland", for example, hospitals, schools etc etc), and athletics certainly wasn't immune to it. Religion can be divisive though, so IMHO it's good to break with those connections (So we now have the more inclusive "Scouting Ireland" for example).

I don't doubt the orginals intentions behind the original naming of the club were good. However I think we're leaving that era behind. In modern Ireland nobody who wasn't Islamophic would be likely to set up any club with the same name or symbolism, with good reason.

In fairness to Crusaders they seemed to have been a progressive club, the first to establish a women's section in the 40's.


(In fairness to De Valera (and I'm not a fan) it was Lord Craigavon who said "a Protestant Government for a Protestant people" in reference to NI in the 30's. To be fair to Devalera also, most regressive legislation took place in the early Free State Dails, the Constitution is relatively mild. Many people do not realise this)

Any name referencing a group defined by religion and worse is not inclusive though.

average_runner

Enduro wrote: »

Yup the Crusader's cross emblem is a bit of a snag if you're trying to escape the association with the holy war against the Muslims.

I too would doubt that the founding fathers had killing Muslims in mind. Given the age of the club I'd imagine it would have been more along the DeValera "catholic country for a catholic people" type of thinking. Relgion got tied up into all sorts of things in this country where it shouldn't belong ("The Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland", for example, hospitals, schools etc etc), and athletics certainly wasn't immune to it. Religion can be divisive though, so IMHO it's good to break with those connections (So we now have the more inclusive "Scouting Ireland" for example).

I don't doubt the orginals intentions behind the original naming of the club were good. However I think we're leaving that era behind. In modern Ireland nobody who wasn't Islamophic would be likely to set up any club with the same name or symbolism, with good reason.

So should the names of Kildare and Wicklow change, as they both stand for church of ***** and linked directly to the christian religion.
I am sure they aren't the only ones either.

demfad

average_runner wrote: »

So should the names of Kildare and Wicklow change, as they both stand for church of ***** and linked directly to the christian religion.
I am sure they aren't the only ones either.

I think that is what you call "whataboutery". How is this equivalent?

If it was not possible to change the name 'Crusaders' or if it were easily possible to change a county name there might be some small equivalence. There isn't.

average_runner

demfad wrote: »

I think that is what you call "whataboutery". How is this equivalent?

If it was not possible to change the name 'Crusaders' or if it were easily possible to change a county name there might be some small equivalence. There isn't.

I was just highlighting that if we are going to get all PC about the club name, where does it stop?

demfad

average_runner wrote: »

I was just highlighting that if we are going to get all PC about the club name, where does it stop?

Can you explain why you think these names are equivalent? You haven't made that clear at all.

Kildare is a county name. The name is an anglised version of Cill Dara which means 'Church of the Oak'. Cill Dara was a townland 5th century around where Kildare county town is now. It was named after the significant church that was founded there at that time.

You have heard why 'Crusaders' might be offensive to Muslims. Please tell us why 'Kildare' would be offensive to anyone?

(The tired old 'PC gone mad' argument wont cut it. Please back it up.)

PaulieC

demfad wrote: »

You have heard why 'Crusaders' might be offensive to Muslims. Please tell us why 'Kildare' would be offensive to anyone?

(The tired old 'PC gone mad' argument wont cut it. Please back it up.)

What's really tired is your crusade to find things to be offended by and to demand that others be offended by. Why not leave folks to decide for themselves whether or not they are/should be offended ?

And to take the Kildare argument further down the inane route, church (Kil) might be offensive to non-Christians. There.

walshb

demfad wrote: »

You have heard why 'Crusaders' might be offensive to Muslims. Please tell us why 'Kildare' would be offensive to anyone?

You're on a wind up here. "Might" be offensive......

Enduro

walshb wrote: »

You're on a wind up here. "Might" be offensive......

I think it's a bit more than might. It's equivalent to saying that "Klu Klux Klan A.C." might be offensive, no matter how inclusive and welcoming the club actually is, especially once you add in the highly recognisable emblems.

And I genuinly don't think I'm exaggerating to say that the KKK and the crusades (NOT crusaders A.C.) have a high degree of equivalence.

Enduro

Also, this is not the equivalent to Kildare/Wicklow etc where the orginal meanings have been lost in time. If you pay any attention to middle eastern politics you should realise that "crusader" is a highly loaded term that still carries a huge impact. That's why any western intervention in the region will be accused of being "crusaders" by any local opponents. The term (and the symbol) carries large power and is well understood.