Awesome & Inclusive: Running in Multilcultural Ireland

ArmaniJeanss

Theres a precedent in county cricket where the London county Middlesex changed their name from Middlesex Crusaders to Middlesex Panthers after after complaints from Muslims and Jews. So it could well be something that the running club and soccer team up North will come under pressure to change eventually.

runnter

I see the usual suspects complaining about the name 'Crusaders' but at the same stage turning this thread into their own moral crusade (as always). How ironic!!

davedanon

Chivito550 wrote: »

Who has done his classic hit and run.

There's some sort of sanction in After Hours for starting threads but not offering an opinion, or stating a position and then failing to defend it. Is that not extant here then?

average_runner

davedanon wrote: »

There's some sort of sanction in After Hours for starting threads but not offering an opinion, or stating a position and then failing to defend it. Is that not extant here then?

Maybe the mods should delete these threads asap.

Cabaal

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

Not sure if you are taking the piss or not but it would be ridiculous for a club to change its name in case it offended anyone. PC nonsense getting offended on behalf of someone who might be offended

You're right, the Washington redskins is a perfectly fine none offensive name for a football team.
:rolleyes:

demfad

RayCun wrote: »

yeah, possibly interesting discussion
.....not that I know of
.....there are some black kids competing in juvenile track and field/cross country, but far fewer adults in the equivalent races, as far as I can see
....I think one issue is that the established clubs tend to be in areas that are now middle-class-ish. And maybe middle-class parents are more likely to drive their kids to a club that is further away? Training for schools competition is going to be easier in schools that have access to facilities (even if that is only 'nearby, safe green space')

I agree regarding established clubs in Midlle class areas and implications for parents.
I think there is huge untapped potential in the North City Centre.
I'm based in the Ballybough/North Strand/Fairview/Marino area.
Between these areas, NthCityCentre, Marino etc there is a very substantial population with no club that accessable. I always wondered if there was a potential untapped demographic in working class areas (this large area in particular) though as an alternative to soccer etc.
The sport seems to be growing at Juvenile level in established areas but not moving at all in working class areas. Maybe clubs will start to appear as the population gets more mixed.
There are one or two enclosed safe options for venues, with a couple of new schools opening up also.

When they are of age in 4-5 years, I'll probably end up sending my kids to Raheny as the closest feasable. If I'm volunteering for coaching anyway though, setting up a local city club might be an option.

I like the idea of a Ballybough AC......

Enduro

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

While the KKK still exist and there are people still alive today who suffered under some of their darkest days, it's what 500 years since the crusaders? Should Barbarians rugby club change their name because Barbarians killed Christians etc. And a Christian might be offended. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill

So, in an Irish context since the KKK have never existed here, and therefore it's unlikely that anyone here has ever suffered under some of their darkest days, would it be all fine and dandy to have "KKK AC" here, or do you think that there is a chance that some might find it offensive (even if you wouldn't).

Both the term and the symolism of the crusaders remains offensive in large parts of the world. Again, an Irish person should understand how historically offensive terms/ideas/events can be clung onto long after anyone alive has been directly impacted (the famine, 800 years etc etc etc etc ad nasuem).

Enduro

glacial_pace71 wrote: »

in the same way that Cobh, Dún Laoghaire, Portlaoise etc don't have to bear a name that relates to an English royal or lord.

I think you've just highlighted some cases where the name of something was considered to be sufficiently offensive that it was changed. thanks

tang1

demfad wrote: »

I think there is huge untapped potential in the North City Centre.

Have to agree here, some of the fastest lads I ever seen run from stolen cars came Ballybough!!!

Enduro

PaulieC wrote: »

Enduro, I am genuinely interested in what it is in the names of those two clubs that is so offensive to you.

In the case of Crusaders, since it is named after a holy war against the Muslims (And the club symbol makes it clear and unambiguos that this is the case). In modern terminology the Crusaders were an invasion force whose objective was to ethnically cleanse an area. I couldn never wear the club singlet. There'd be no point in joining a club.

Pearce was no hero to me. I'm not that into the whole blood sacrifice thing. Another singlet I wouldn't want to wear.

Why can't athletics clubs leave all the fookin religion and politics behind and just concentrate on athletics? It's not that hard to come up with a non-religious non-political name.

demfad

tang1 wrote: »

Have to agree here, some of the fastest lads I ever seen run from stolen cars came Ballybough!!!

Just because they were faster than you doesn't necessarily make them fast.

tang1

demfad wrote: »

Just because they were faster than you doesn't necessarily make them fast.

Never said they were faster than me!!

demfad

tang1 wrote: »

Never said they were faster than me!!

So you were first in the sprint from the stolen car on every occasion?

tang1

demfad wrote: »

So you were first in the sprint from the stolen car on every occasion?

Have never failed to catch an occupant of a stolen car be they drivers or passengers, so yes in a roundabout way.

demfad

tang1 wrote: »

Have never failed to catch an occupant of a stolen car be they drivers or passengers, so yes in a roundabout way.

You've caught every occupant of every stolen car? Are you Robocop?

RayCun

Enduro wrote: »

Why can't athletics clubs leave all the fookin religion and politics behind and just concentrate on athletics?

In our case, the club was founded in 1956, the 40th anniversary of the rising, and the Pearse school is in the area (which is why the brothers, not just Padraig). At the time it wouldn't have been seen as particularly political.

although the club was in the NACAI for a long time, so there was some politics there...

Chivito550

tang1 wrote: »

Have never failed to catch an occupant of a stolen car be they drivers or passengers, so yes in a roundabout way.

They can't have been that fast in that case.

tang1

Chivito550 wrote: »

They can't have been that fast in that case.

Ah I'll give you that one.

Murph_D

tang1 wrote: »

Have never failed to catch an occupant of a stolen car be they drivers or passengers, so yes in a roundabout way.

That's cos it's all about the endurance, B, not the pace.

As a member of Crusaders myself I have to admit the name and emblem doesn't sit well with me. I honestly hadn't thought about it at all until I had already joined up and took a good look at the singlet. It's a discussion worth having and I would not personally be averse to a change of logo/font/colours although I would be interested in knowing why the name was chosen in the first place. It's possible the Templar-esque graphics were added later. (By the way if the Cru are modelled on the Templars, who were essentially bankers, there's a whole other level of potential negative association.) I'd like to think the name was chosen for its literal meaning but who knows?

As for inclusivity/diversity, there doesn't seem to be a lot of non middle-class locals in the club, which I'd imagine reflects the sport's general appeal, limited as it is in comparison to others. That's a real pity - I'd imagine it's similar in other clubs but won't jump to conclusions based on my limited experience.

Djoucer

Reminds me of the current debate in the UK regarding the removal of a statue to Cecil Rhodes.

Many want the statue of him removed as he was a racist, supported apartheid and generally not a very pleasant person.

Other argument is almost anything from history is morally dubious at best compared to today’s standards.

Excellent column from David Mitchell on “the trouble with people who lived in the past.”

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/13/cecil-rhodes-campaign-oxford-david-mitchell

davedanon

Bring back Alf Tupper. The Tough of the Track. Training on fish and chips!

Murph_D

davedanon wrote: »

Bring back Alf Tupper. The Tough of the Track. Training on fish and chips!

Alf always got one over on the "toffs".

davedanon

Excellent piece by David Mitchell there, and a really good argument for crusaders hanging onto their name. That is, if they want to. The important thing, I think, is that while it's right to debate the need or otherwise to change, it's really for the members to decide, and not for others such as demfad & enduro to decide that on behalf of the Muslim potential members of crusaders they are going to be offended to the point of changing the name. It's up to crusaders. Are they happy that their club is named after an ancient holy war? I must admit, the significance of the name had escaped me up to now, so the discussion certainly has merit.

demfad

Murph_D wrote: »

That's cos it's all about the endurance, B, not the speed.

As a member of Crusaders myself I have to admit the name and emblem doesn't sit well with me. I honestly hadn't thought about it at all until I had already joined up and took a good look at the singlet. It's a discussion worth having and I would not personally be averse to a change of logo/font/colours although I would be interested in knowing why the name was chosen in the first place. It's possible the Templar-esque graphics were added later. (By the way if the Cru are modelled on the Templars, who were essentially bankers, there's a whole other level of potential negative association.) I'd like to think the name was chosen for its literal meaning but who knows?

As for inclusivity/diversity, there doesn't seem to be a lot of non middle-class locals in the club, which I'd imagine reflects the sport's general appeal, limited as it is in comparison to others. That's a real pity - I'd imagine it's similar in other clubs but won't jump to conclusions based on my limited experience.

I was a member of Crusaders myself for many years and did wonder at it, but never quite asked. Thanks, I was going to ask about the Irishtown/Ringsend locals thing. We initially trained in Merrion Cricket ground in Ballsbridge and I was only in Irishtown for a couple of years. I dont know where they trained before Merrion/Irishtown. I just dont think it's something that occurs to people perhaps.

Great clatter of activity in that park next door to you in the summers.

My current club is in a middle class area, and is pretty local to it bar the few blow ins.

PaulieC

davedanon wrote: »

Are they happy that their club is named after an ancient holy war?

The Ancient Holy wars were themselves only straddled with the name Crusades centuries after they happened.

annapr

PaulieC wrote: »

The Ancient Holy wars were themselves only straddled with the name Crusades centuries after they happened.

Really? So what were they called at the time? Just in case there's an AC somewhere with the same name...

demfad

davedanon wrote: »

Excellent piece by David Mitchell there, and a really good argument for crusaders hanging onto their name. That is, if they want to. The important thing, I think, is that while it's right to debate the need or otherwise to change, it's really for the members to decide, and not for others such as demfad & enduro to decide that on behalf of the Muslim potential members of crusaders they are going to be offended to the point of changing the name. It's up to crusaders. Are they happy that their club is named after an ancient holy war? I must admit, the significance of the name had escaped me up to now, so the discussion certainly has merit.

re. the bolded section: are you claiming that only members of Crusaders AC can debate this issue here? Or are you saying that we can all debate it?

You said that the significance of the name escaped you and you now see the discussion has merit. Fair enough. But why do you think it has merit? Is it that you now see the possibility that Muslims may find/have found the name objectionable enough to stop them joining the club? If not then what other reason?
If so then why single myself and Enduro out? There are others who also see something in this point including at least one current Crusaders member.

If discussion is good, then allow people to discuss.

P.S. Glad you feel now that the discussion has more merit than 'land-fill'.

Icepick

It's almost funny that people don't realize how patronizing celebrating someone running in a hijab actually is.
Noble savage level of thinking basically.

PaulieC

annapr wrote: »

Really? So what were they called at the time? Just in case there's an AC somewhere with the same name...

They were lumped together afterwards by historians as being the same, but in reality they were all rather different and not all against Muslims.

ThisRegard

davedanon wrote: »

Oi! We became middle-class when we got de fookin' Square, pal.

Tallaght lost their working class heritage once Oisin and Cú Chulainn ACs sold out and amalgamated in pursuit of fancy facilities.

Something that I have been wondering about is that early in the thread someone said that mountain running is a middle class sport because of its location. Do you mean because people have to travel to the races by car, I'm not quite sure what was meant.