Getting a car to NCT centre without tax/insurance.

grogi

Irish Steve wrote: »

It would be very rare for the test to be being done on the day of expiry, so even if it fails, the old test is still valid. If it fails, you get a statement of failure, and I don't see how the legislation can be clearer re the fail.

on the day on which a test certificate in respect of the vehicle had been refused.

If it fails, it HAS been refused a certificate, relating to the test that has just been performed. Usage on THE DAY has been specifically allowed for by the wording in the legislation.

So, if there is no NCT in force on the day of the test, regardless of pass or fail, the legislation allows it to be on the road.

on the day on which a test certificate in respect of the vehicle had been refused.

I know English is difficult, I'll clear it out for you. This grammar construction is called Past Perfect. It is used to emphasize the order of events and describe situations that happened before other event.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=past+perfect

In other words: the refusal needs to happen first and only after that one is allowed to drive a car without the NCT until end of the day.

Arkady

Is a car insurance policy valid if a car is being used on the public road without motor tax and it's involved in an accident ?

Esel

Arkady wrote: »

Is a car insurance policy valid if a car is being used on the public road without motor tax and it's involved in an accident ?

YES.

Arkady

Esel wrote: »

YES.

Even if legally it shouldn't be on the road ?

Esel

Arkady wrote: »

Even if legally it shouldn't be on the road ?

You have flogged this horse to death already on the Luxobarge thread.

Just ring your local Garda station and ask them, ffs.

Arkady

Esel wrote: »

You have flogged this horse to death already on the Luxobarge thread.

Just ring your local Garda station and ask them, ffs.

Would it not be the insurance company that decides if an insurance policy is valid ?
Just looking for an answer, thought someone here might have it. Seems no one in this site actually knows.
No need for the attitude and bad language.

grogi

Arkady wrote: »

Just looking for an answer, thought someone here might have it. Seems no one in this site actually knows.
No need for the attitude and bad language.

The 3rd party liability insurance is not centrally regulated - thus nobody will give you definitive answer. Check your insurance T&C and you'll know.

My insurance contract mentions only roadworthiness.

punisher5112

Insurance companies can't invalidate insurance because a car has no tax as you can only be done by a guard, traffic warden.(some council ticket wardens also).

Its a minor offence which does not carry penalty points but sure it probably eventually will.

You don't need any more answers.

Esel

Arkady wrote: »

Would it not be the insurance company that decides if an insurance policy is valid ?
Just looking for an answer, thought someone here might have it. Seems no one in this site actually knows.
No need for the attitude and bad language.

See, people here do know the answer, and have told you multiple times. It seems that you just can't / don't want to accept it.

Arkady

punisher5112 wrote: »

Insurance companies can't invalidate insurance because a car has no tax as you can only be done by a guard, traffic warden.(some council ticket wardens also).

That doesn't make any sense, Gardai don't decide insurance policy terms and conditions.

punisher5112

Arkady wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense, Gardai don't decide insurance policy terms and conditions.

They can only punish you by fine or car impound never said they do.

Insurance is mandatory and you are insured if you have a policy that's for car or if another car is on open drive policy.

CiniO

Arkady wrote: »

Would it not be the insurance company that decides if an insurance policy is valid ?

Partially yes - they do decide.
But there is also insurance legislation which puts some obligations on insurers.
F.e. one of them is that once insurance policy is in force, then insurer will have to pay for third party claim.
If terms and conditions of a policy were broken, then they can try to recoup the cost of the claim, from the insured person.
But I don't think they could have any grounds for putting requirement for vehicle tax to be valid in their policy terms and conditions.

No policy issued in Ireland I've seen so far, had such requirement.

Arkady

CiniO wrote: »

But I don't think they could have any grounds for putting requirement for vehicle tax to be valid in their policy terms and conditions.

No policy issued in Ireland I've seen so far, had such requirement.

That's mad. So they have to pay out on a claim in a case when a car legally shouldn't be on the road. No wonder insurance in this country is sky high. Seems very strange the insurance companies are ok with this, or perhaps the high prices suit them.

Esel

Arkady wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense, Gardai don't decide insurance policy terms and conditions.

Do us all a big favour please. Ask any Garda.

CiniO

Arkady wrote: »

That's mad. So they have to pay out on a claim in a case when a car legally shouldn't be on the road.

I don't like that logic really.
Car shouldn't be on the road - says who.

Anyone can take their car onto the road. If they do it without tax, it means they are committing offence.
But it's not like that car shouldn't be on the road. Can can be on the road, becasue that's what cars are there for. Only thing is that it should have tax when it's on the road.

But that's more philosophical issue.

No wonder insurance in this country is sky high. Seems very strange the insurance companies are ok with this, or perhaps the high prices suit them.

Reason for high prices of insurance in Ireland are different, and have nothing to do with people driving untaxed vehicles.
And I don't think they really have a choice, as there is no grounds for them to require motortax on a car to provide cover.
One has nothing to do with the other.

Irish Steve

grogi wrote: »

on the day on which a test certificate in respect of the vehicle had been refused.

I know English is difficult, I'll clear it out for you. This grammar construction is called Past Perfect. It is used to emphasize the order of events and describe situations that happened before other event.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=past+perfect

In other words: the refusal needs to happen first and only after that one is allowed to drive a car without the NCT until end of the day.

Having been using English as my first and only language for over 60 years, I don't need lessons on it. The legislation has been worded to specifically provide that a vehicle that has been tested and failed may still be removed from the test station to another place without committing an offence. There is NO time qualification in the legislation for this clause. That is why the new clause covering off shore island vehicles was added in 2014, giving an extra period of time, subject to providing a written confirmation of the test appointment.

Del2005

Irish Steve wrote: »

Having been using English as my first and only language for over 60 years, I don't need lessons on it. The legislation has been worded to specifically provide that a vehicle that has been tested and failed may still be removed from the test station to another place without committing an offence. There is NO time qualification in the legislation for this clause. That is why the new clause covering off shore island vehicles was added in 2014, giving an extra period of time, subject to providing a written confirmation of the test appointment.

But a vehicle which has hasn't been tested and not from an island can't be driven to the test centre.

Arkady

CiniO wrote: »

I don't like that logic really.
Car shouldn't be on the road - says who.

Says the law

Esel

Arkady wrote: »

Says the law

Here we go again, and again, and repeat ad infinitum.

What you should be complaining about is the fact that motor tax can be purchased without actually having insurance.

But let us not let that get in the way of a good rock ant roll riff. We need a good solo now though...

People living under bridges should not be prodded awake. Have a pee (not on them, obviously), zip up carefully, tiptoe past without stepping on toes. Walk briskly (don't run) away. Don't save GPS data.

Turtle_

Esel wrote: »

Here we go again, and again, and repeat ad infinitum.

What you should be complaining about is the fact that motor tax can be purchased without actually having insurance.

Can it? I have to put in my policy number when I renew my tax. I assumed because of that that there was a requirement for the vehicle to be insured in order to be taxed... Genuinely curious

GM228

Irish Steve wrote: »

The law is actually very specific. It states that the regulation ( to have a valid NCT) does NOT apply

"on the day on which a test certificate in respect of the vehicle had been refused"

If it passes, then there IS a valid certificate for the date concerned, as unlike insurance, which has a specific start and finish date AND TIME, there are no times associated with an NCT. So, if it passes, there is a valid certificate for that date, so the vehicle is technically legal.

If it fails, it is also technically legal FOR THAT DAY ONLY, and not for any other day, or for a quick trip or two as "there's a test booked in a few weeks time".

So, if a vehicle is stopped on the way to the centre, in strict terminology, the production a pass OR fail certificate at the garda station AFTER the test means that no offence has been committed. It probably hasn't ever been argued in court as it's unlikely that it would get that far, in the very specific and limited case that IS covered very specifically in the legislation.

Yes and no, in the case of it failing then yes you are 100% correct, the vehicle is exempt for the entire day.

However if it passes then it only has a valid NCT cert from when it leaves the NCT Centre. The offence for not having a valid NCT if stopped by the Gardaí on the way to the centre is for not having an NCT Cert which is in force at that time . Whilst an NCT Cert may not have a specific start time, that is irrelevant as at the time your stopped you don't carry a valid NCT Cert which is in force. The same applies if stopped for having no motor tax, getting the tax disc an hour later does not prevent you from being done for an offence as you had no valid tax at the time you were stopped.

Irish Steve wrote: »

So, there's no direct words in the legislation to say *you can drive TO the test", as it's effectively covered by the wording that exempts a vehicle from the legislation on the basis of a fail certificate.

It's only covered if you fail, not if you pass as above.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Some vehicles on off shore islands with no road connection now may have to have a test, so there is another very specific exemption, where it states that the NCT regulations shall NOT apply.

There is no requirement for some off shore island vehicles to mayby have a test.

The 24 hour grace period for off shore island vehicles is because if they are going to the mainland they then need an NCT and never having previously had the need to require one they are exempt solely for the purpose of getting an NCT. Once they are not off shore they are no longer exempt hence the 24 hour period.

grogi wrote: »

on the day on which a test certificate in respect of the vehicle had been refused.

I know English is difficult, I'll clear it out for you. This grammar construction is called Past Perfect. It is used to emphasize the order of events and describe situations that happened before other event.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=past+perfect

In other words: the refusal needs to happen first and only after that one is allowed to drive a car without the NCT until end of the day.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Having been using English as my first and only language for over 60 years, I don't need lessons on it. The legislation has been worded to specifically provide that a vehicle that has been tested and failed may still be removed from the test station to another place without committing an offence. There is NO time qualification in the legislation for this clause.

IrishSteve is correct. When the test fail actually occurred is irrelevant, it makes the vehicle exempt for the day, as my brother put it, it's a loophole.

GM228

Turtle_ wrote: »

Can it? I have to put in my policy number when I renew my tax. I assumed because of that that there was a requirement for the vehicle to be insured in order to be taxed... Genuinely curious

Esel is correct, there is actually nothing in law requiring you to have insurance to be able to tax your car, it's just something Revenue ask for with no legislative backing.

grogi

GM228 wrote: »

It's only covered if you fail, not if you pass as above.

What is this? Quantum physics now? You might be and might not be committing an offence at the same time?
Offence is committed or not. Whether it was committed might be determined at a later time when more information is available, but events in future should don't change that determination. In criminal proceedings there is always bargaining etc. - but this is slightly a different matter..

As I see and understand your argumentation, I don't agree with it. And as I am not going to test it in court, I will not be sure

A different issue is the penalty. The law enforcement system might promote stopping the offending behaviour more than penalizing. In such case, if offending ceases immediately, there will be no penalty. A warning might be considered sufficient as well when the offence is minor enough.

And that's how I see it: you will not get a fine for driving to an NCT centre with an expired NCT. Gardaí are not there to threaten the people, but to serve them. If you are sensible with them, they will be with you.

Esel

Turtle_ wrote: »

Can it? I have to put in my policy number when I renew my tax. I assumed because of that that there was a requirement for the vehicle to be insured in order to be taxed... Genuinely curious

GM228 wrote: »

Esel is correct, there is actually nothing in law requiring you to have insurance to be able to tax your car, it's just something Revenue ask for with no legislative backing.

OK, I didn't say that! You are required to have valid insurance when taxing a vehicle.

The issue is (or was) that no check is made to validate the details you provide, unless you (or your agent) are transacting over the counter in the motor tax office.

GM228

Esel wrote: »

OK, I didn't say that! You are required to have valid insurance when taxing a vehicle.

The issue is (or was) that no check is made to validate the details you provide, unless you (or your agent) are transacting over the counter in the motor tax office.

I read quite some time back that there wasn't actually any legislation/ministerial orders in place regarding the requirement for insurance details when paying for motor tax, (it's possible I'm getting confused with a system to give the ability to validate the details), however there is nothing on the Statute Book that I can find to confirm you actually need to provide in your insurance details.

GM228

grogi wrote: »

What is this? Quantum physics now? You might be and might not be committing an offence at the same time?

Offence is committed or not. Whether it was committed might be determined at a later time when more information is available, but events in future should don't change that determination. In criminal proceedings there is always bargaining etc. - but this is slightly a different matter..

As I see and understand your argumentation, I don't agree with it. And as I am not going to test it in court, I will not be sure

A different issue is the penalty. The law enforcement system might promote stopping the offending behaviour more that penalizing. In such case, if offending ceases immediately, there will be no penalty. A warning might be considered sufficient as well when the offence is minor enough.

And that's how I see it: you will not get a fine for driving to an NCT centre with an expired NCT. Gardaí are not there to threaten the people, but to serve them. If you are sensible with them, they will be with you.

I'll clarify for you, as per my brother it is most definately an offence to drive to the NCT without a valid NCT.

It is an offence to use a car without a valid cert and this includes driving a car to a test centre, bar the exemptions written in the current act, there is no other exemption for driving to the centre for a test. However we generally use our discretion.

Until circa 2003 there was a specific exemption for the actual day of the test, but not under later laws.

Drivers stopped using a car with no valid cert wIll be issued with a FCN, in certain circumstances we could seize the car but usually we only do this if there are other mitigating circumstances. Under the failed test exemption those whos cars fail could have a successful FCN cancellation, an effective loophole if proven, but I don't think it has ever been an issue?

For the loophole to be exploited the vehicle would actually have fail the test as opposed to passing it, so for example if I attend a road collision in which a vehicle with no NCT was on it's way to a centre and missed it's test as a result the driver would still get a FCN for having no cert irrespective of the circumstances.