Separating Church & State , Why does it Matter ?

mickoneill31

wokingvoter wrote: »

In the whole of the county I live in, the largest inland county in Ireland not one single school operates a policy whereby you need a baptismal cert to be enrolled, but still babies continue to be baptised.
How do you explain that?

Is that not cherry picking? The schools in my area don't require a baptismal certificate either.
e.g. here's a local enrollment policy
http://hfjns.scoilnet.ie/enrolment.html
You don't need to be a Catholic to go to this school but the first ones accepted are
"1. Catholic children living in the parish of St Finian."
If you don't have one you just go to the end of the list so while it's not required you can be bumped down the list if somebody wants to enroll who does have one.

intheclouds

Personally I would consider someone who gets married in a church or otherwise uses church services to keep people happy or not offend them as Cultural Catholics.

The RC are just as happy to count Cultural Catholics in their numbers as they are to count real Catholics. The higher the numbers the bigger the influence. They dont care if people say "well Im an atheist but I got married in a church". Youre just a number increasing their power.

wokingvoter

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Is that not cherry picking? The schools in my area don't require a baptismal certificate either. If you don't have one you just go to the end of the list so while it's not required you can be bumped down the list if somebody wants to enroll who does have one.

You can be bumped down the list if the child/niece/nephew of a teacher appears on the list
You can be bumped down the list if the sibling/cousin of a pupil/past pupil appears on the list
What kind of enrolment policy would you like your child's school to have?
First come first served?

Speedwell

wokingvoter wrote: »

What kind of enrolment policy would you like your child's school to have?
First come first served?

And... that would be a problem, why?

galljga1

wokingvoter wrote: »

First of all the Catholic Church doesn't need your wedding to give it "legitimacy" . Secondly the RCC don't produce statistics, the Government do, Thirdly, 1000s of babies are baptised because their parents want them to be considered Catholics at least, nothing to do with getting into schools. In the whole of the county I live in, the largest inland county in Ireland not one single school operates a policy whereby you need a baptismal cert to be enrolled, but still babies continue to be baptised.
How do you explain that?
How do you explain all the children of other faiths and no faith being taught in every school in Ireland if you claim that they must be baptised?

I was asked for a baptismal cert for my kids in both Kildare and Meath. It is part of their enrollment policy. They have a pecking order which includes being baptised into the catholic church.

mickoneill31

wokingvoter wrote: »

You can be bumped down the list if the child/niece/nephew of a teacher appears on the list
You can be bumped down the list if the sibling/cousin of a pupil/past pupil appears on the list
What kind of enrolment policy would you like your child's school to have?
First come first served?

We're talking about Seperating Church & State in this thread. Can you tell me how siblings / cousins / nephews have any relevance to this topic please.
Or would it be a bit more sensible to create a thread to discuss that sensibly rather than try and drag a thread off topic?

Walter H Price

wokingvoter wrote: »

First of all the Catholic Church doesn't need your wedding to give it "legitimacy" . Secondly the RCC don't produce statistics, the Government do, Thirdly, 1000s of babies are baptised because their parents want them to be considered Catholics at least, nothing to do with getting into schools. In the whole of the county I live in, the largest inland county in Ireland not one single school operates a policy whereby you need a baptismal cert to be enrolled, but still babies continue to be baptised.
How do you explain that?
How do you explain all the children of other faiths and no faith being taught in every school in Ireland if you claim that they must be baptised?

I'm sure it depends on the area but as few have pointed out here many schools take batised kids from the local parish as priority.

I know that's what my frieds are experiencing in Louth and NC Dublin and the OH's family have experienced in Kildare , if kids aren't baptised the go to the bottom of the list regardless. its one of the many issues with primary schools here.

Another is how much time is allotted to science , history , geography etc.. vs the time allotted to religion especially in 2nd and 6th class.

Laura_A

This has become a very off topic thread.. Personally if I could classify myself it would be the 'I dont care' group - I just don't believe in any of it or think it holds any value, I don't personally believe any gods exist but I am not a strong enough advocate of it all to class myself as Atheist.. And from some of the comments here I don't think I would want to be classified as an Atheist if this is how people act just because someone isnt 'the perfect Athiest' - for lack of a better phrase it is coming across as people being religious about not being religious.

I was baptized and made my communion and confirmation but my mother never tired to make me follow any religion, it was more for my grandparents and I really don't care if that is 'hypocritical' or see why anyone else should.. I am from single parent family so of course the church views on that was one of the first things that turned me strongly away from it, apart from that while I could personally never have or justify an abortion I completely believe it is each persons choice and no one should have to travel or have that choice taken from them..

Also gay marriage and in general the church view on gay people is disgusting so that would be another reason.. Schools don't bother me at all, reading a book telling some stories and going to mass three times a year isn't that big a deal IMO... The church pays for the upkeep of 95% of Irish primary schools, it takes a burden away from the government in terms of costs so playing devils advocate here but that is beneficial..

Obviously all of the scandals surrounding the church have turned most people off and I am no exception to that but don't think that even really needs to be stated, no one could agree with what they covered up and allowed to happen.

intheclouds

Laura_A wrote: »

Obviously all of the scandals surrounding the church have turned most people off and I am no exception to that but don't think that even really needs to be stated, no one could agree with what they covered up and allowed to happen.

Clearly lots of people at least dont mind about it - otherwise why are they still going to mass?

mickoneill31

To actually answer the Ops question my reasons for wanting to separate church & state are

1: I don't want my kids indoctrinated in any religion in school. They can make up their own mind when they can educate themselves on religion.

2: I don't want my kids time wasted in school. I want them to be getting educated about stuff that we know as fact. I don't mind them learning about world religions and their impacts on society but I doubt that needs to be 10% of their time.

3: I don't want people of any religion refusing to provide services to me because the service I require conflicts against their beliefs. e.g. contraception, serving alcohol, discriminating against gay people, abortion, euthanasia etc. Obviously the last two are controversial but I would like the discussion and reasoning for allowing or outlawing them to not be based on the man in the sky.

4: I find it distasteful that we as a country go to priests for soundbites whenever somebody dies in an accident. I was watching the priest involved in the Buncrana tragedy yesterday and he was rolling off platitudes and an obviously prepared sermon. If I die in a tragedy I don't want my local priest pontificating about how the community is in shock and how I was a valued member of the community. Obviously it's all true but my local priest, like most priests probably doesn't know anything about most of the people they spout about.

galljga1

Laura_A wrote: »

This has become a very off topic thread.. Personally if I could classify myself it would be the 'I dont care' group - I just don't believe in any of it or think it holds any value, I don't personally believe any gods exist but I am not a strong enough advocate of it all to class myself as Atheist.. And from some of the comments here I don't think I would want to be classified as an Atheist if this is how people act just because someone isnt 'the perfect Athiest' - for lack of a better phrase it is coming across as people being religious about not being religious.

I was baptized and made my communion and confirmation but my mother never tired to make me follow any religion, it was more for my grandparents and I really don't care if that is 'hypocritical' or see why anyone else should.. I am from single parent family so of course the church views on that was one of the first things that turned me strongly away from it, apart from that while I could personally never have or justify an abortion I completely believe it is each persons choice and no one should have to travel or have that choice taken from them..

Also gay marriage and in general the church view on gay people is disgusting so that would be another reason.. Schools don't bother me at all, reading a book telling some stories and going to mass three times a year isn't that big a deal IMO... The church pays for the upkeep of 95% of Irish primary schools, it takes a burden away from the government in terms of costs so playing devils advocate here but that is beneficial..

Obviously all of the scandals surrounding the church have turned most people off and I am no exception to that but don't think that even really needs to be stated, no one could agree with what they covered up and allowed to happen.

I am open to correction but in most cases the state pays for the most of the upkeep of Irish primary schools. The rest is usually made up from fundraising by the parents.

intheclouds

galljga1 wrote: »

I am open to correction but in most cases the state pays for the most of the upkeep of Irish primary schools. The rest is usually made up from fundraising by the parents.

From citizens info:

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The State pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

Walter H Price

intheclouds wrote: »

Clearly lots of people at least dont mind about it - otherwise why are they still going to mass?

I think its more complex then that , for many older people they are disgusted by the behavior of the individual priests but many just fail to see the bigger picture of the cover ups etc. Mass numbers are definitely declining and will continue too no doubt.

The Church's failure to evolve will ultimately be its downfall , by opposing same sex marriage and sticking rigidly to views about traditional family's , sex before marriage etc.. its becoming less and less relevant in the modern world.

mickoneill31

Walter H Price wrote: »

The Church's failure to evolve will ultimately be its downfall , by opposing same sex marriage and sticking rigidly to views about traditional family's , sex before marriage etc.. its becoming less and less relevant in the modern world.

I don't think it can evolve though. If it did and changed its stance on these areas it'd just provide more evidence that the holy books weren't actually dictated / written by a divine being.

Walter H Price

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I don't think it can evolve though. If it did and changed its stance on these areas it'd just provide more evidence that the holy books weren't actually dictated / written by a divine being.

Totally agree , i don't think it can evolve because what it is spouting is literally gospel , but is that gospel really relevant in the modern world ?

I'm sure we can all get on board with not killing people and being charitable etc.. but why do i need a lecture on sex from a celibate man ? or for the churches thinking on when life begins to dictate what medical procedures my OH , Sister , Daughter etc can have ?

Ultimately this will be the church's downfall , it would be interesting to know what % of Irish people are actually practicing Catholics , regular mass goers etc and what % of them are under 70.

eviltwin

Walter H Price wrote: »

Totally agree , i don't think it can evolve because what it is spouting is literally gospel , but is that gospel really relevant in the modern world ?

I'm sure we can all get on board with not killing people and being charitable etc.. but why do i need a lecture on sex from a celibate man ? or for the churches thinking on when life begins to dictate what medical procedures my OH , Sister , Daughter etc can have ?

Ultimately this will be the church's downfall , it would be interesting to know what % of Irish people are actually practicing Catholics , regular mass goers etc and what % of them are under 70.

You will really enjoy your pre marriage course so :p

Walter H Price

Yeh its going to be a joy :P the sacrifices we make hahahahahaha

Laura_A

galljga1 & intheclouds - my mistake on who pays for upkeep, the church just owns the site for most of them from the looks of it - I take that bit back!

intheclouds

Walter H Price wrote: »

....it would be interesting to know what % of Irish people are actually practicing Catholics , regular mass goers etc and what % of them are under 70.

I must say Ive been amused over the past few years that parents whose children are making their communion have had to attend mass for a number of weeks beforehand otherwise the child wouldnt be allowed to make their communion. Talk about helping skew the figures!!

Youll never get the real figures because of all the people who dont believe but go to churches for their own wedding, other peoples weddings, their childs communion(s) etc....

The numbers are always going to be inflated. Which is exactly what the church wants.

I dont attend the church part of weddings anymore. I let the couple know that Id rather not support an institution that aids and abets paedophiles. Not much choice for funerals though.

wokingvoter

Speedwell wrote: »

And... that would be a problem, why?

Ok first come first served then.
So here's the scenario
Your child is enrolled. When your child is in first class your second child turns 3 and you decide to enrol her in the school. Here's the conversation down in the principals office on enrolent day
You: "hi I'd like to enrol Mary in junior infants for next September"
Principal :"sorry no can do. Junior infants is fully booked up for next September "
You: "what! But my older child is here. Are you suggesting I have them at 2 different schools! That's ridiculous !"
Principal: "not my problem. We did have an enrolment policy but people wanted it gone so....NEXT!"
See how that works?

Walter H Price

wokingvoter wrote: »

Ok first come first served then.
So here's the scenario
Your child is enrolled. When your child is in first class your second child turns 3 and you decide to enrol her in the school. Here's the conversation down in the principals office on entitlement day
You: "hi I'd like to enrol Mary in junior infants for next September"
Principal :"sorry no can do. Junior infants is fully booked up for next September "
You: "what! But my older child is here. Are you suggesting I have them at 2 different schools! That's ridiculous !"
Principal: "not my problem. We did have an enrolment policy but people wanted it gone so....NEXT!"
See how that works?

Why would removing the preference given to baptised children mean automatically scrapping the whole policy ? surely this is just one part. Why would schools change policy's where by preference is given to kids who already have a sibling in the school , just because they were no longer allowed to give preference to baptised children ?

lazygal

wokingvoter wrote: »

Ok first come first served then.
So here's the scenario
Your child is enrolled. When your child is in first class your second child turns 3 and you decide to enrol her in the school. Here's the conversation down in the principals office on enrolent day
You: "hi I'd like to enrol Mary in junior infants for next September"
Principal :"sorry no can do. Junior infants is fully booked up for next September "
You: "what! But my older child is here. Are you suggesting I have them at 2 different schools! That's ridiculous !"
Principal: "not my problem. We did have an enrolment policy but people wanted it gone so....NEXT!"
See how that works?

This is the policy in many educate together schools. And I know parents who can't enrol siblings in religious schools because while there were no oversubscribtion problems for older children the younger non religious siblings are last on the list and siblings don't get priority over religious children. See how that works?

wokingvoter

Walter H Price wrote: »

Why would removing the preference given to baptised children mean automatically scrapping the whole policy ? surely this is just one part. Why would schools change policy's where by preference is given to kids who already have a sibling in the school , just because they were no longer allowed to give preference to baptised children ?

I asked the poster if he felt that the enrolment policy should be "first come first served"
He answered me by expressing puzzlement in how "first come first served" could be a problem
I've shown him how it could be
You really need to read the thread before jumping in

lazygal

wokingvoter wrote: »

I asked the poster if he felt that the enrolment policy should be "first come first served"
He answered me by expressing puzzlement in how "first come first served" could be a problem
I've shown him how it could be
You really need to read the thread before jumping in

Religious criteria are a problem too. Where siblings end up in different schools, just like the scenario you outlined.

wokingvoter

lazygal wrote: »

This is the policy in many educate together schools. And I know parents who can't enrol siblings in religious schools because while there were no oversubscribtion problems for older children the younger non religious siblings are last on the list and siblings don't get priority over religious children. See how that works?

So having no enrolment policy doesn't work then.
I'm glad we agree on that
Your trying to tell me that a Catholc funded school with a Catholic ethos can't specify that baptised children are prioritised?
do you have any idea how ludicrous that sounds?

lazygal

wokingvoter wrote: »

So having no enrolment policy doesn't work then.
I'm glad we agree on that
Your trying to tell me that a Catholc funded school with a Catholic ethos can't specify that baptised children are prioritised?
do you have any idea how ludicrous that sounds?

Who pays all the costs of the school?

lawred2

wokingvoter wrote: »

But your going to a church to avail of the RCC sacrament of marriage.
Your going to stand up in front of all your loved ones family and friends on the biggest day of your life and solemnly promise to bring up any children you have as Roman Catholics
do you not think that's absolutely ridiculous ?
The hypocrisy is actually breathtaking

erm yer wha?

intheclouds

wokingvoter wrote: »

So having no enrolment policy doesn't work then.
I'm glad we agree on that
Your trying to tell me that a Catholc funded school with a Catholic ethos can't specify that baptised children are prioritised?
do you have any idea how ludicrous that sounds?

Whats ludicrous about it?

First of all, the church doesnt pay, the state does.
Second, if the church is providing education - it should be accessible to all regardless of creed.

Walter H Price

wokingvoter wrote: »

So having no enrolment policy doesn't work then.
I'm glad we agree on that
Your trying to tell me that a Catholc funded school with a Catholic ethos can't specify that baptised children are prioritised?
do you have any idea how ludicrous that sounds?

Taxpayer is footing the bill for the teachers salaries , school upkeep etc , with the help of voluntary contributions from parents for additional equipment like computers etc.. , not too sure how much the church is actually paying for nowadays once upon a time maybe, but now these are state funded schools no reason why any child should be bumped down an enrollment list for not being baptised

wokingvoter

lawred2 wrote: »

erm yer wha?

When you get married by a Catholic priest in a Catholic Church your promising to bring your kids as Catholics
Shock horror!