Season 6 | Episode 13 | The Same Boat [AMC] [SPOILERS]

Riskymove

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Convienient that the walker who started eating Paula just stopped, let her die & reanimate

I thought it was stranger that Paula didn't pull herself off the pole rather than stand there being eaten

DoozerT6

...or that Maggie just stood there watching Carol and Paula fight, instead of helping Carol!

Also, why didn't the women just pull off their own gags in that room? When Carol was 'hyperventilating', Maggie gurgled until one of the women took her gag off, just so she could tell them to take Carol's gag off...but Maggie's hands were taped in front of her, not behind her back, she could have just reached up and pulled her own one off. So could Carol. I know their hands were taped up but they could still have gotten a finger behind the gag. If you want to be really pedantic, they could probably have just spat them out or forced the gag out with their tongue and teeth.

Loved Alicia Witt in this episode too. (I always think of her as Cybill's daughter in 'Cybill'). She seemed very excited in TTD after the episode

DoozerT6

Greyjoy wrote: »

The biker gang attempted to rob them of the truck and take them prisoner.

I'm not trying to paint the saviours as innocents but what we have here is not a 'good guys' vs 'bad guys' scenario. It's two groups fighting for control of a resource (hilltop).

IIRC the last thing the leader of the biker gang said to Abraham and Sasha before Daryl dispatched them was that he was going to kill them.

I also think that the Saviours and Rick both wanting 'control' of Hilltop are two very different things. In fact I'm not sure that 'control' is the right word, regarding Rick et al. The Saviours just took what Hilltop had in return for....not killing them. We know that Ricks' group would at least engage in fair trade with Hilltop, possibly even form an alliance (we have no reason to believe (at least in the tv series so far) that Hilltop are anything other than ordinary people like Rick and co. We also know Ricks group to be fundamentally decent people, current bloodbath notwithstanding).

J. Marston

The badass redhead who lost count of the people she killed after she hit double digits wasn't that good of a shot. She shot at Carol and Maggie half a dozen times in a narrow hallway and missed both of them from about 10 yards.

listermint

Greyjoy wrote: »

The biker gang attempted to rob them of the truck and take them prisoner.

I'm not trying to paint the saviours as innocents but what we have here is not a 'good guys' vs 'bad guys' scenario. It's two groups fighting for control of a resource (hilltop).

Did you watch that episode.... There was no prisoners they were seconds from shooting thei think you need to go back and review.

Greyjoy

listermint wrote: »

Did you watch that episode.... There was no prisoners they were seconds from shooting thei think you need to go back and review.

Initially the bikers were taking them prisoner. When Sasha & Abraham won't tell the leader were they came from he starts to run out of patience and suggests he'll kill one of them. I think you need to go back and review.

The Talking Bread

Greyjoy wrote: »

Initially the bikers were taking them prisoner. When Sasha & Abraham won't tell the leader were they came from he starts to run out of patience and suggests he'll kill one of them. I think you need to go back and review.

What actually happened is he threatened to kill them, he held his gun up to Abe n Sash, saying something like he didn't want them to get the impression he was a walkover. At that stage Daryl may have been alerted and was after killing your man preparing to defend.
Head biker stands down..... "just kidding......I'm not going to kill you" before stating "actually, do you know what, I am" At that stage Daryl launched. The gang, as they more or less said, were clearly planning to not only take whatever the trio had but take them captive back to Alexandria and cause more trouble.

Although a tad unrealistic the logic behind Daryl killing them at that stage was sound. Kill or be killed.

CramCycle

Ben Gadot wrote: »

It'd be dark putting a pregnant woman to the bat even for this show but I'm starting to feel it's possible.

Its not a spoiler but it is comic related in a way, but I agree completely, it's where I see it going.

Glenn is too loved and Maggie is getting better but they can still get rid of her without annoying too many people, oddly though, Glenn would probably become an insufferable annoyance if this happened or best case, goes out in an epic blaze of glory

mzungu wrote: »

Wonder what they mean with this "we are all Negan" stuff.

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Is Negan a bit of a "I'm Spartacus" type thing or is that just what they want us/them to think?

I think so, and the point of Rick killing so quick was that he doesn't realise and the other two are too damaged to say they have heard the spartacus line. The real big group with a leader who is actually called Negan will turn up in a few episodes, right after they settle down for their mid season slump that is actually overdue.

The girl who lost a baby talks about producing and the cigarette smoking woman tells Cybils daughter if only she had a pair of gonads you could trip over (she presumably has gonads but on the inside).

So presumably whether there is a Negan or whether they are a group where to outsiders they are all called Negan, they are clearly male dominated or at least believe they are, maybe a weakness for Ricks group to exploit, turn the tide in a battle etc.

sabhail

Great episode, pretty much as dark as last wk in the end I thought. Not only the killing but the back stories of paula and the darkhaired woman. And as for Maggie, thinking back to season 2 and the walker in the well.... And what she's like now.... Even the start of season 6 when she's nearly living a pre apocalypse life, for a little while anyway. You would wonder would you start doubting if you want to bring a child into this absolute brutality..

MarkR

When Maggie and Carol were on the way to wherever they were (slaughterhouse? reminded of the time Glenn nearly got a bat in the side of the head in Sactuary), the captor's use of the radio and terminology was very professional sounding. None of them seemed to speak like soldiers off radio though.

You're not the good guys, you have to know that. The group they just butchered could pretty much have been them, if the circumstances were flipped, but that's pretty obvious, with evil maggie, evil carol, and redhead as Rick's alternate.

Jofspring

Cracking episode and once again very well paced. Another one where last season or the season before we would have seen Carol and Maggie in that room for three episodes minimum with Rick and co walking through the woods looking the find them.

Sand

sabhail wrote: »

You would wonder would you start doubting if you want to bring a child into this absolute brutality..

People have been bringing children into worlds of absolute brutality for at least 100 thousand years - for most of that time humans were hunted and eaten by terrible monsters bigger, faster and stronger than they were. They still had kids. Human history has been fairly brutal right up and including the 21st century. Humans are still bringing children into absolute brutality in places like Syria today, and in large swathes of the world blighted from war, famine, environmental destruction, epic poverty that wouldn't look too different from a post-apocalypse scenario.

The common narrative theme in apocalypse fiction about "not bringing children into this terrible world"...I don't know, I think its something that writers obsess about more than the majority of humans do or have done in that scenario. I find Maggie and Glenn to be actually fairly realistic in their having a child - this is the world they are in. They carry on just like people do in similar situations. Maggie is actually getting stronger and stronger - she is imposing herself on the world. She was absolutely ruthless in eliminating the threat to her and her family and her home.

Carol on the other hand, I find unrealistic. I don't think her journey from housewife to terminator was a case of her changing. She is the same person she has always been. She was simply forced to make new decisions she wouldn't normally have to make. When it was kill or be killed, it was in her nature to kill. So her collapse in the face of the same choices and same stakes is a bit off.

Dandelion6

Sand wrote: »

Carol on the other hand, I find unrealistic. I don't think her journey from housewife to terminator was a case of her changing. She is the same person she has always been. She was simply forced to make new decisions she wouldn't normally have to make. When it was kill or be killed, it was in her nature to kill. So her collapse in the face of the same choices and same stakes is a bit off.

TBH I always found her journey from (battered) housewife to terminator unrealistic.

The Talking Bread

Dandelion6 wrote: »

TBH I always found her journey from (battered) housewife to terminator unrealistic.

So what! It's a show about zombies! If characters didn't transition it would be highly boring! You could see Carol incrementally transition along her journey from the camp to Sofia death to the prison to the sickness and her consequent killings of the sick to her eviction to her outside journey to meeting Tyres and the kids to having to execute lily to saving the gang at Terminus and then on to the Safe Zone where she hid behind the mantle of timid housewife and her gradual Morgan esquire type thought process. Most of this has been very fluid and although stuff like this isn't a real life mirror, on a fictional comic book based show it works more than excellently. It's not as if she just changed overnight

She is one of the best characters on the show and isn't as cartoonish as others. Her character is extremely refined at this stage and she would be pretty boring if she just skulked in the background doing the laundry and making meals like in Season 1 and 2.

Sand

Dandelion6 wrote: »

TBH I always found her journey from (battered) housewife to terminator unrealistic.

I don't agree - she was always tough. You might say a battered housewife, but equally that is someone who survived a thug beating on them for years. The post-apocalypse, a world where brutes and thugs rule and decent people have to endure savagery and a lack of hope? Where not being as savage and violent as those around you is viewed as being weak?

That's Monday to Sunday for pre-apocalypse Carol Peletier.

That's why I don't get her sudden retreat into someone who is not tough enough to take it.

Mr.Nice Guy

The Talking Bread wrote:

So what! It's a show about zombies!

Can we please, please, please stop justifying really lousy storytelling on the grounds that this is a fantasy show?

Game of Thrones is fantasy but it's generally well written. Same goes for the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter etc. These shows/films take their inspiration from fantasy but manage to tell their stories in ways that are absorbing. They do not generally remove you from the action by inserting something ridiculous like a guy miraculously surviving under a corpse without a scratch on him as a horde of zombies surround him and feast upon the corpse above him, or a battered housewife who turns into Jack Bauer.

Carol for me went from the absurd to the 'are-you-sh*tting-me?' stage when she went running around Alexandria taking guys out in stealth mode like she was Solid Snake. I mean even Snake had a Codec and Otacon to give him support.

The Talking Bread

For me right now is suffering a crisis of conscience and of identity. She has so many layers and has been able to alternate between such so easily to adapt chameleon like to the situation or environment she is faced with for so long.

Her true identity is lost on her and after the incident with Morgan and the Wolf and her realisation as to how dangerous and soulless she can become her conscience is threatening to derail her almost robotic tenacity to switch betwwen meek perfect cookie baking housewife and cold hearted killer.

Right now she is going through a crisis of conscience, so the Carol who is agonizing over the number of people she has killed and might have to kill is a Carol that always was part of her (we saw glimpses after the prison scenes and to an extent, with Lily) It seems that she is sick of killing and sick about it and afraid of what she might become, someone like Paula who cares for no one and nothing except her personal survival. She probably saw herself in Paula for the first time and together with the soundings from Morgan and even the guilt about Sam the claustrophobia of Alexandria has taken a grip and, however silly or folly like it seems inrvitable to be, these are the reasons shes left.

She sees a war is oncoming and she wants out while she has the chance.

I agree that on screen we havent seen this crisis of conscience play out over a big time period with only episode 13 and 14 really giving glimpses into it but i imagine we are to assume she has thought a lot out over the three or four months since the Alexandria zombie invasion.


So the real Carol is the cookie baking housewife as well as the badass warrior, either in disguise or out in the open. In my opinion, part of her current problem is in trying to reconcile and integrate all these aspects of her personality.

Thats my reading on it.

The Talking Bread

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Can we please, please, please stop justifying really lousy storytelling on the grounds that this is a fantasy show?

Game of Thrones is fantasy but it's generally well written. Same goes for the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter etc. These shows/films take their inspiration from fantasy but manage to tell their stories in ways that are absorbing. They do not generally remove you from the action by inserting something ridiculous like a guy miraculously surviving under a corpse without a scratch on him as a horde of zombies surround him and feast upon the corpse above him, or a battered housewife who turns into Jack Bauer.

Carol for me went from the absurd to the 'are-you-sh*tting-me?' stage when she went running around Alexandria taking guys out in stealth mode like she was Solid Snake. I mean even Snake had a Codec and Otacon to give him support.

Well its not lousy writing in my opinion and some of the episodes of late have been absorbing in mine and many others opinions so im not justifying it for what its not by saying its based on a comic book. My use of this mantra isnt to excuse bad storytelling as i dont believe it is bad at all overall .
Im justifying it on the basis the story is based on very closely a plot derived from the comic book creators who, understandably, dont delve too much into psychological sypnosis of the characters.

The show tries to make up for that somewhat and in my opinion does a good job on certain characters and Carol is one of the characters they have done a great job on on this basis. When a show is only 40 minutes long and so much has to be covered within that and the cast is constantly increasing its very difficult to focus on characters psychological aspects.

Game of Thrones is based on a more indepth literary work, likewise LOTR and Harry Potter. There are mistakes and looseends in the storytelling of all these works of cose also.


Ps there has been a few awful episodes of what everyone considers the golden chalice of fantasy tv at the moment (and more often than not deservedly so) but the lows of Game of Thrones are there to see. Characters personalities, as well you know, change a lot quicker a d more drastically than Carols on that show ?

Mr.Nice Guy

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Well its not lousy writing in my opinion and some of the episodes of late have been absorbing in mine and many others opinions so im not justifying it for what its not by saying its based on a comic book. My use of this mantra isnt to excuse bad storytelling as i dont believe it is bad at all overall .
Im justifying it on the basis the story is based on very closely a plot derived from the comic book creators who, understandably, dont delve too much into psychological sypnosis of the characters.

The show tries to make up for that somewhat and in my opinion does a good job on certain characters and Carol is one of the characters they have done a great job on on this basis. When a show is only 40 minutes long and so much has to be covered within that and the cast is constantly increasing its very difficult to focus on characters psychological aspects.

Game of Thrones is based on a more indepth literary work, likewise LOTR and Harry Potter. There are mistakes and looseends in the storytelling of all these works of cose also.


Ps there has been a few awful episodes of what everyone considers the golden chalice of fantasy tv at the moment (and more often than not deservedly so) but the lows of Game of Thrones are there to see. Characters personalities, as well you know, change a lot quicker a d more drastically than Carols on that show ?

If you think it's not lousy writing and you enjoy it that's another thing entirely and you're quite entitled to defend the show in that respect.

But when you say 'So what! It's a show about zombies!' you're effectively saying that the show doesn't have to live up to high standards because of its genre. This is a cop out because there are many quality fantasy shows and films that are held up to a very high standard and rightly so.

I also don't understand the significance of it being based on comics. We are not judging the comics but the television show. The writers of the show are not bound to stick rigidly to the comics, just like the GOT TV writers have not stuck rigidly to the source material.

As regards Carol, whatever about her psychological development that does not explain how she can transform from a meek woman one minute into Crouching Tiger Hidden Carol and run around a virtual war zone, cool as a cucumber, taking out violent men like she's Chuck Norris.

I don't care if this is a fantasy show or it was in the comics. It's dumb.

The Talking Bread

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If you think it's not lousy writing and you enjoy it that's another thing entirely and you're quite entitled to defend the show in that respect.

But when you say 'So what! It's a show about zombies!' you're effectively saying that the show doesn't have to live up to high standards because of its genre. This is a cop out because there are many quality fantasy shows and films that are held up to a very high standard and rightly so.

I also don't understand the significance of it being based on comics. We are not judging the comics but the television show. The writers of the show are not bound to stick rigidly to the comics, just like the GOT TV writers have not stuck rigidly to the source material.

As regards Carol, whatever about her psychological development that does not explain how she can transform from a meek woman one minute into Crouching Tiger Hidden Carol and run around a virtual war zone, cool as a cucumber, taking out violent men like she's Chuck Norris.

I don't care if this is a fantasy show or it was in the comics. It's dumb.

You are like a broken record. Do you consider yourself a martyr watching the show you clearly dislike just to spend hours writing posts and whingeing about how bad it is.
You aren't some qualified tv critic as you seem to perceive yourself with these length reviews!

I've given you valid explanations but at this stage I think you are just arguing for the sake of it! I wish I hadn't bothered now yes the show has plot holes like all shows but the way you "review" it people would expect utter garbage. Your opinion is your opinion, it's not fact!


And just so you know Kirkman is the chief writer and producer on the show so his comic book influence is extremely high. I think Carol's transformation and chameleons like persona is a lot more believable than the severe personality transplants some characters go through on GOT.

At least Carol had a bit of self conscience and self respect.........when she got sick of something (the killing) she got up and left.........maybe you should consider stopping watching the TV show?!

Mr E

Calm down, TTB. Jesus... take a chill pill.

The Talking Bread

Mr E wrote: »

Calm down, TTB. Jesus... take a chill pill.

Excuse me?

Mr E

You edited your post to remove this line:

Stop. F%%%king. Watching. It. Then.

Stop being so aggressive.