Since when should a foreign language be needed to work in Ireland?

brightspark

Just spotted this job advert

https://www.jobs.ie/ApplyForJob.aspx?Id=1516772&jst=402da5fae8b748f69b42f11f5f70a57f&utm_source=jobalerts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Job%2BAlerts&cid=jajob&jacid=Job_Alert_321024-03-2016

For a "Polish Speaking Electrician, Maintenance Engineer Job in Cork".

With "Excellent Polish and good English"

If the job involved selling to Poland or something along those lines I'd understand, but it's not, it involves maintenance of a factory!

Will we all need to learn Polish to get work soon?

I doubt that there are similar positions in Poland looking for Gaelic speakers.

How long have PayPal been here?

https://jobsearch.paypal-corp.com/jobs?lng=-6.24889&lat=53.33306&page=1&location=Dublin,%20Dublin%20City,%20Ireland

brightspark

Deleted User wrote: »

How long have PayPal been here?

https://jobsearch.paypal-corp.com/jobs?lng=-6.24889&lat=53.33306&page=1&location=Dublin,%20Dublin%20City,%20Ireland

Different situation, I imagine PayPal require people fluent in several languages as they operate in many countries and require staff to deal with customers in those countries. The position I refereed to would not be.

If the job involved selling to Poland or something along those lines I'd understand, but it's not, it involves maintenance of a factory

Mrs OBumble

If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.

Manach

The requirement for this does seem to impact disproporionately to favour one segment at the expense of other citizens. Offhand such language requirements have to be related to the needs of the job in question. It would be of interest if this ad was passed into the Equality Authority for their take on this.

Irish_Elect_Eng

It does seem a bit strange....

....but there are many possible reasons.

• Location of Parent company.
• Work Team Nationality.
• Travel to other sites.
• Technical Support of other sites.
• Etc..

Anyone know what company it is?

Eoin

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.

I'd have thought this would be an obvious conclusion to draw from the advert. And I'm really struggling to think of some sort of discrimination angle here, if for some reason there isn't actually a need for fluent Polish.

brightspark

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.

I'm inclined to think that you are right, I know of at least one meat factory in Cork where the majority of workers are non native English speakers, (but not all Polish).

However as a result this now means that a job in Ireland is effectively unavailable to a person born and raised here (Polish certainly wasn't taught in any school in my area, and the advert requests EXCELLENT POLISH and only GOOD ENGLISH)

To be clear I have no problem with members of the EU working and living here, but I do feel that they should learn to speak English (or Irish) fluently enough to communicate in the workplace, after all they are the official state languages

The people's Republic of Cork is apparently now a part of Poland

Edit.. I know it's not really a discrimination issue

Mrs OBumble

Eoin wrote: »

I'd have thought this would be an obvious conclusion to draw from the advert. And I'm really struggling to think of some sort of discrimination angle here, if for some reason there isn't actually a need for fluent Polish.

There can be a discrimination angle: I've had Irish factory supervisors say "My life got so much easier once we started recruiting Polish people instead of Irish: they turn up on time, sober, you tell them to do something and they do it". So much that some now actively look to hire Polish rather than Irish workers.

But it's not necessarily so: there are some jobs where Polish is a very handy skill to have, for reasons as pointed out.

And there are now some Irish people who speak Polish (usually because they married a Pole).

There will be a lot more Irish people who cannot apply for this job because they didn't get taught to be an electrician, than because they didn't get taught Polish.

the_pen_turner

I think this is a discrimination case.
come on good English, where will they find that. most Irish people only have basic English

Disgruntled Badger

brightspark wrote:

Will we all need to learn Polish to get work soon?

Makes sense to me to look for someone expected to work with those nationalities? Polish for the poles and English for the Irish. Especially as safety might be a first concern.

brightspark wrote:

I doubt that there are similar positions in Poland looking for Gaelic speakers.

The Polish correspondent for Tea-na-Gee?

Head of the Polish branch of the Peig appreciation society?

stoplooklisten

We're all europeans now, Irelands record on fluency in a second language is dismal

StupidLikeAFox

I always understood that discrimination was related to stuff you cannot control, such as gender, sexual orientation, race etc

Technically if you really wanted this job you could learn to speak polish

Dohnjoe

brightspark wrote: »

I'm inclined to think that you are right, I know of at least one meat factory in Cork where the majority of workers are non native English speakers, (but not all Polish).

However as a result this now means that a job in Ireland is effectively unavailable to a person born and raised here (Polish certainly wasn't taught in any school in my area, and the advert requests EXCELLENT POLISH and only GOOD ENGLISH)

To be clear I have no problem with members of the EU working and living here, but I do feel that they should learn to speak English (or Irish) fluently enough to communicate in the workplace, after all they are the official state languages

The people's Republic of Cork is apparently now a part of Poland

Edit.. I know it's not really a discrimination issue

There are hundreds of jobs in Spain that rely on having English as a first language to deal with the thousands of English expats that live there

It's the market, there were tens of thousands of Poles living and working in Ireland, ergo residual jobs may need Polish as a first language for practical reasons

Jim2007

Manach wrote: »

It would be of interest if this ad was passed into the Equality Authority for their take on this.

Requiring foreign language skills is not an equality issue.

Jim2007

brightspark wrote: »

I doubt that there are similar positions in Poland looking for Gaelic speakers.

No but there are plenty of jobs which require English.

Kournikova

Multinationals often brag about how many jobs they create when most position have to filled from candidates applying from overseas as Ireland isn't endowed with Hebrew, Macedonian, Slovenian speakers etc. who are required for these jobs in many cases. I knew of two people who came over with their other halves from Turkey and Croatia to fill these kinds of roles.

While I don't have an issue with it I wish the government wouldn't insult everyone's intelligence and act like these jobs are for people currently resident in Ireland and unemployed, they're clearly not.

Eoin

Kournikova wrote: »

when most position have to filled from candidates applying from overseas

Any stats on that?

Kournikova wrote: »

While I don't have an issue with it I wish the government wouldn't insult everyone's intelligence and act like these jobs are for people currently resident in Ireland and unemployed, they're clearly not.

They are jobs that are available in Ireland; I don't see the problem. A Java development job won't be suitable for someone who doesn't understand Java, but anyone in Ireland can learn Java if they want to.

ArnieSilvia

Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?

gandalf

Kournikova wrote: »

Multinationals often brag about how many jobs they create when most position have to filled from candidates applying from overseas as Ireland isn't endowed with Hebrew, Macedonian, Slovenian speakers etc. who are required for these jobs in many cases. I knew of two people who came over with their other halves from Turkey and Croatia to fill these kinds of roles.

While I don't have an issue with it I wish the government wouldn't insult everyone's intelligence and act like these jobs are for people currently resident in Ireland and unemployed, they're clearly not.

Yes but those jobs are being filled in Ireland, the employee pays tax in ireland , buys goods in Ireland. I'll warrant that those foreign workers are helping keep a decent number of Irish workers in jobs as well.

brightspark

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?

But currently Irish and English are the state languages, perhaps given the large Polish community in Ireland now we need to add Polish as an official state language and make it compulsory in schools.

(And to reiterate, the job in question was not one dealing with external foreign customers or suppliers, obviously certain jobs require foreign languages when there is extensive dealing with other nations)

3DataModem

Polish is spoken natively by way more people in ireland than Irish.

Annasopra

Jim2007 wrote: »

Requiring foreign language skills is not an equality issue.

It could possibly be discrimination based on nationality. It would depend on the circumstances.

Jen44

There are plenty of jobs abroad where English is a requirement despite it not being that countries first language!

Jim2007

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It could possibly be discrimination based on nationality. It would depend on the circumstances.

Then it would not be based on language skills would it? At the moment the fact remains that they are only looking for language skills no matter how much people want to read into it.

Jim2007

brightspark wrote: »

(And to reiterate, the job in question was not one dealing with external foreign customers or suppliers, obviously certain jobs require foreign languages when there is extensive dealing with other nations)

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. The company is fully entitled to seek languages skills for any position they are not required to justify it.

Mrs OBumble

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?

Indeed.

Language requirement can act as a type of proxy discrimination on the basis of nationality (and arguably the do for many public sector jobs).

But language requirements aren't necessarily about discrimination: teachers in Ireland do need to have an adequate level of Irish-language, because they have to teach Irish. (Arguably they should also have to have a minimum level of maths too ... but that's an argument for a different thread.)

Similarly, some electricians / maintenance engineers / housing-officers etc do need to speak Polish because they need to convey important safety information to colleagues / customers whose main language is Polish.

Without more information, we cannot know if this is the case in the job the OP is referring to.

brightspark

I think I posted this in the wrong forum.

It doesn't really bother me about one job where I agree if that's what the employer thinks is required then they are entitled to put it in the job spec., for all I care they could have added being able to juggle whilst walking a tightrope blindfolded. (I'm in full time permanent employment so it doesn't directly affect me)

What does concern me is that we now have many industries who are employing large numbers of "non nationals" far in excess of the percentage in the general population. I have experience of a site where more than 80% were Eastern Europe an (signage was in about four different languages), despite the 2011 census stating only approx 2.7% were Polish.


I fully believe that they have every right to work here and even where possible to help them overcome language issues by having documents in their own language etc.

But the result of this is that it will become even more difficult for some members of the community to find work even in low skilled jobs. Some would say it's their own fault for not going to university and getting a degree, but not everyone does.

Regardless should they be left unemployed?

Are we wasting resources teaching Irish when Polish is more widely spoken?


As I said at the beginning I think this is the wrong forum, it's probably more of a social issue than a work issue.

stoplooklisten

brightspark wrote: »

......

Regardless should they be left unemployed?
.......

No one is left unemployed and very few are handed a job, most people work hard to get and job and retain it. There are schemes and courses for people who want to gain skills to improve their chances of getting a job. If they do not participate and keep expecting to be handed a job, then yes, they will be left unemployed, by their own decisions.

Jayop

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?

I passed an aptitude test for a public service job years ago and was offered an interview, then a few days later they seen that I didn't have Irish (I'm from the North)so I had my interview cancelled. I was a-bulling.

Jim2007

brightspark wrote: »

But the result of this is that it will become even more difficult for some members of the community to find work even in low skilled jobs. Some would say it's their own fault for not going to university and getting a degree, but not everyone does.

Well first of all you don't need a degree to learn a language, you just need motivation. I see plenty of people here (Switzerland) with little education learning German, French or Italian and they succeed.

Second, the EU objective is for every citizen to speak at least 3 EU languages at A2 or higher...

brightspark wrote: »

Regardless should they be left unemployed?

Look at it from the other side, where would be the point in employing someone who could not communicate with the rest of the team, just be cause he/she is Irish.

Here in Switzerland we have a similar situation - most of the workers in the construction industry speak Serbo-Croatian and as a result it is not at all unusual for Swiss civil engineers, tradesmen etc... to take courses in Serbo-Croatian in order to get on, it is just a fact of life.

brightspark wrote: »

Are we wasting resources teaching Irish when Polish is more widely spoken?

From a practical point of view yes. I spent two of the past 30 years working through Irish and that is more than most people do!

Eugene Norman

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Indeed.

Language requirement can act as a type of proxy discrimination on the basis of nationality (and arguably the do for many public sector jobs).

But language requirements aren't necessarily about discrimination: teachers in Ireland do need to have an adequate level of Irish-language, because they have to teach Irish. (Arguably they should also have to have a minimum level of maths too ... but that's an argument for a different thread.)

Similarly, some electricians / maintenance engineers / housing-officers etc do need to speak Polish because they need to convey important safety information to colleagues / customers whose main language is Polish.

Without more information, we cannot know if this is the case in the job the OP is referring to.

Given that this is an English speaking country that's highly unlikely. Polish people don't get to speak polish at work (for work purposes) where I work. And how many polish clients would t speak English? Clear discrimination.

Eugene Norman

Jim2007 wrote: »

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. The company is fully entitled to seek languages skills for any position they are not required to justify it.

I'm not entirely sure that is true.

davo10

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Given that this is an English speaking country that's highly unlikely. Polish people don't get to speak polish at work (for work purposes) where I work. And how many polish clients would t speak English? Clear discrimination.

So by you rationale your work is discriminating against Polish people by not allowing them to speak to each other in their native tongue while allowing others to communicate in English? Job ads advertise requirements, are you seriously saying that the requirement for a certain aptitude discriminates against those who don't have the aptitude? This job requires that the person speaks Polish, there must be a practicle reason for that and that reason could be required for a multitude of reasons.

Imagine if a job advertisement required excellent English, a considerable percentage of Irish people would be discriminated against if your logic was used.

stefanovich

Mrs OBumble wrote:

If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.

Should they not then learn English?

stefanovich

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Similarly, some electricians / maintenance engineers / housing-officers etc do need to speak Polish because they need to convey important safety information to colleagues / customers whose main language is Polish.

If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

davo10

stefanovich wrote: »

If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

"Should"? Do you think every Irish person who moves abroad "should" be made learn the local language ie attend classes? ( I suspect thousands of construction workers would disagree with you). Being able to speak English is a requirement for many jobs here, particularly client facing jobs, but it is not required for every job. This job requires certain aptitudes, the applicant must be an electrician and must be able to speak polish, an Irish electrician who speaks polish can apply.

Mrs OBumble

stefanovich wrote: »

If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

That might be realistic if the indigenous population had the same.

But I'm still about coluuumns and filims far to often to believe it's true.

CIARAN_BOYLE

stefanovich wrote: »

If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

I note that this job requires good English and excellent Polish.

Eoin

brightspark wrote:

Are we wasting resources teaching Irish when Polish is more widely spoken?

Don't want to open that can of worms about whether learning Irish is useful or not, but yeah - I think we could do a lot better in Ireland when it comes to being competent in a second language.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

That might be realistic if the indigenous population had the same.

But I'm still about coluuumns and filims far to often to believe it's true.

Hmmm.

Anyway, our English is more than acceptable. Accents and pronunciations differ. That's hardly an indictment.

fando

In my workplace (light engineering) only foreigners have formal qualifications and experience upon joining. The Irish qualifications is being friend or family to someone already working there. So, I guess, it works booth ways.

drake70

Jayop wrote: »

I passed an aptitude test for a public service job years ago and was offered an interview, then a few days later they seen that I didn't have Irish (I'm from the North)so I had my interview cancelled. I was a-bulling.

Hi Jayop,

What position were you applying for?

I have been in the public service for 25 years and at no time was I required to be proficient in the Irish language.

However since 2003 all public bodies are required to deliver their services in Irish. This is accomplished by having a number of employees capable of conducting their business through Irish.

Further Info

Jim2007

stefanovich wrote: »

Should they not then learn English?

stefanovich wrote: »

If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

I think you will find they do! Most Polish people I have had working for me were easily at B2 and some even C1 or C2.

Jim2007

Eoin wrote: »

I think we could do a lot better in Ireland when it comes to being competent in a second language.

Part of the problem seems to be that it is delivered as an academic subject rather than as a life skill. Here in Switzerland languages are even part of apprenticeship training, but the emphasis is on being able to conduct your everyday business in the language not academic study. People are much more motivated to learn something that they see as useful to them than some academic stuff that they will never use again.

stefanovich

davo10 wrote: »

This job requires certain aptitudes, the applicant must be an electrician and must be able to speak polish, an Irish electrician who speaks polish can apply.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I note that this job requires good English and excellent Polish.

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think you will find they do! Most Polish people I have had working for me were easily at B2 and some even C1 or C2.

So remind me again why an electrician would need to speak Polish? Perhaps its because they want to hire only Polish people because the rest of the team is Polish. What Irish person is going to learn Polish to get a job in Ireland? That's ridiculous.

If they know English then the requirement is discrimination against the local population when in fact the local citizens of Ireland should get preference not be discriminated against.

Tzardine

Its not discrimination.

The employment equality acts 1998-2011 prohibit discrimination on 9 grounds in employment. They are

1. Age
2. Sex
3. Civil Status
4. Family Status
5. Religion
6. Sexual Orientation
7. Disability
8. Race
9. Member of the travelling community.

Language is not discrimination.

This thread reads more like "Dey took our jebs" than anything else.

davo10

Tzardine wrote: »

Its not discrimination.

The employment equality acts 1998-2011 prohibit discrimination on 9 grounds in employment. They are

1. Age
2. Sex
3. Civil Status
4. Family Status
5. Religion
6. Sexual Orientation
7. Disability
8. Race
9. Member of the travelling community.

Language is not discrimination.

This thread reads more like "Dey took our jebs" than anything else.

I think stefanovich is trying to link the language requirement to discrimination on racial grounds (no 8). But the point is badly made as the ad does not prevent a person of any race/ethnicity applying for the job, as long as they can speak polish. (If the job required perfect Irish and ok English, 99.9% of Irish electricians probably wouldn't be able to apply either) Perhaps this is due to the team being prodominently polish but it is important that electricians can communicate with each other while working side by side.

I does read like a "that should be my job" thread.

stefanovich

Tzardine wrote: »

Its not discrimination.

The employment equality acts 1998-2011 prohibit discrimination on 9 grounds in employment. They are

1. Age
2. Sex
3. Civil Status
4. Family Status
5. Religion
6. Sexual Orientation
7. Disability
8. Race
9. Member of the travelling community.

Language is not discrimination.

This thread reads more like "Dey took our jebs" than anything else.

davo10 wrote: »

I think stefanovich is trying to link the language requirement to discrimination on racial grounds (no 8). But the point is badly made as the ad does not prevent a person of any race/ethnicity applying for the job, as long as they can speak polish. (If the job required perfect Irish and ok English, 99.9% of Irish electricians probably wouldn't be able to apply either) Perhaps this is due to the team being prodominently polish but it is important that electricians can communicate with each other while working side by side.

I does read like a "that should be my job" thread.

If there is a valid reason for them to need to know Polish to complete the job other than them wanting to hire Polish people then okay fair enough. I reckon however that the only reason they are looking for Polish langugae is because they want Polish people only. That is discrimination regardless of the law. I am using the dictionary definition of the word.

I have no problem with Polish people working here, I know a good few and they are hard working. What I do take issue with however is excluding the native Irish from a chance.

Don't say "learn Polish". This is Ireland. Cop on.

Tzardine

stefanovich wrote: »

That is discrimination regardless of the law. I am using the dictionary definition of the word.

I am afraid that in the courts, the equality legislation will trump Oxfords English dictionary.

The company is doing nothing wrong.

stefanovich

Tzardine wrote: »

I am afraid that in the courts, the equality legislation will trump Oxfords English dictionary.

The company is doing nothing wrong.

So your morality is guided purely by what is legal or illegal in the country you reside?

Tzardine

stefanovich wrote: »

So your morality is guided purely by what is legal or illegal in the country you reside?

In this case I agree with the legislation.