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Since when should a foreign language be needed to work in Ireland?

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Indeed.

    Language requirement can act as a type of proxy discrimination on the basis of nationality (and arguably the do for many public sector jobs).

    But language requirements aren't necessarily about discrimination: teachers in Ireland do need to have an adequate level of Irish-language, because they have to teach Irish. (Arguably they should also have to have a minimum level of maths too ... but that's an argument for a different thread.)

    Similarly, some electricians / maintenance engineers / housing-officers etc do need to speak Polish because they need to convey important safety information to colleagues / customers whose main language is Polish.

    Without more information, we cannot know if this is the case in the job the OP is referring to.

    Given that this is an English speaking country that's highly unlikely. Polish people don't get to speak polish at work (for work purposes) where I work. And how many polish clients would t speak English? Clear discrimination.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    That has absolutely nothing to do with it. The company is fully entitled to seek languages skills for any position they are not required to justify it.

    I'm not entirely sure that is true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Given that this is an English speaking country that's highly unlikely. Polish people don't get to speak polish at work (for work purposes) where I work. And how many polish clients would t speak English? Clear discrimination.

    So by you rationale your work is discriminating against Polish people by not allowing them to speak to each other in their native tongue while allowing others to communicate in English? Job ads advertise requirements, are you seriously saying that the requirement for a certain aptitude discriminates against those who don't have the aptitude? This job requires that the person speaks Polish, there must be a practicle reason for that and that reason could be required for a multitude of reasons.

    Imagine if a job advertisement required excellent English, a considerable percentage of Irish people would be discriminated against if your logic was used.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.


    Should they not then learn English?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Similarly, some electricians / maintenance engineers / housing-officers etc do need to speak Polish because they need to convey important safety information to colleagues / customers whose main language is Polish.


    If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

    "Should"? Do you think every Irish person who moves abroad "should" be made learn the local language ie attend classes? ( I suspect thousands of construction workers would disagree with you). Being able to speak English is a requirement for many jobs here, particularly client facing jobs, but it is not required for every job. This job requires certain aptitudes, the applicant must be an electrician and must be able to speak polish, an Irish electrician who speaks polish can apply.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,706 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

    That might be realistic if the indigenous population had the same.

    But I'm still about coluuumns and filims far to often to believe it's true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

    I note that this job requires good English and excellent Polish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,274 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Are we wasting resources teaching Irish when Polish is more widely spoken?

    Don't want to open that can of worms about whether learning Irish is useful or not, but yeah - I think we could do a lot better in Ireland when it comes to being competent in a second language.
    That might be realistic if the indigenous population had the same.

    But I'm still about coluuumns and filims far to often to believe it's true.

    Hmmm.

    Anyway, our English is more than acceptable. Accents and pronunciations differ. That's hardly an indictment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭fando


    In my workplace (light engineering) only foreigners have formal qualifications and experience upon joining. The Irish qualifications is being friend or family to someone already working there. So, I guess, it works booth ways.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭drake70


    Jayop wrote: »
    I passed an aptitude test for a public service job years ago and was offered an interview, then a few days later they seen that I didn't have Irish (I'm from the North)so I had my interview cancelled. I was a-bulling.

    Hi Jayop,

    What position were you applying for?

    I have been in the public service for 25 years and at no time was I required to be proficient in the Irish language.

    However since 2003 all public bodies are required to deliver their services in Irish. This is accomplished by having a number of employees capable of conducting their business through Irish.

    Further Info


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Should they not then learn English?
    If you move here then you should have or work towards a competent level of English.

    I think you will find they do! Most Polish people I have had working for me were easily at B2 and some even C1 or C2.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Eoin wrote: »
    I think we could do a lot better in Ireland when it comes to being competent in a second language.

    Part of the problem seems to be that it is delivered as an academic subject rather than as a life skill. Here in Switzerland languages are even part of apprenticeship training, but the emphasis is on being able to conduct your everyday business in the language not academic study. People are much more motivated to learn something that they see as useful to them than some academic stuff that they will never use again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    davo10 wrote: »
    This job requires certain aptitudes, the applicant must be an electrician and must be able to speak polish, an Irish electrician who speaks polish can apply.
    I note that this job requires good English and excellent Polish.
    Jim2007 wrote: »
    I think you will find they do! Most Polish people I have had working for me were easily at B2 and some even C1 or C2.

    So remind me again why an electrician would need to speak Polish? Perhaps its because they want to hire only Polish people because the rest of the team is Polish. What Irish person is going to learn Polish to get a job in Ireland? That's ridiculous.

    If they know English then the requirement is discrimination against the local population when in fact the local citizens of Ireland should get preference not be discriminated against.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    Its not discrimination.

    The employment equality acts 1998-2011 prohibit discrimination on 9 grounds in employment. They are

    1. Age
    2. Sex
    3. Civil Status
    4. Family Status
    5. Religion
    6. Sexual Orientation
    7. Disability
    8. Race
    9. Member of the travelling community.

    Language is not discrimination.

    This thread reads more like "Dey took our jebs" than anything else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tzardine wrote: »
    Its not discrimination.

    The employment equality acts 1998-2011 prohibit discrimination on 9 grounds in employment. They are

    1. Age
    2. Sex
    3. Civil Status
    4. Family Status
    5. Religion
    6. Sexual Orientation
    7. Disability
    8. Race
    9. Member of the travelling community.

    Language is not discrimination.

    This thread reads more like "Dey took our jebs" than anything else.

    I think stefanovich is trying to link the language requirement to discrimination on racial grounds (no 8). But the point is badly made as the ad does not prevent a person of any race/ethnicity applying for the job, as long as they can speak polish. (If the job required perfect Irish and ok English, 99.9% of Irish electricians probably wouldn't be able to apply either) Perhaps this is due to the team being prodominently polish but it is important that electricians can communicate with each other while working side by side.

    I does read like a "that should be my job" thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Tzardine wrote: »
    Its not discrimination.

    The employment equality acts 1998-2011 prohibit discrimination on 9 grounds in employment. They are

    1. Age
    2. Sex
    3. Civil Status
    4. Family Status
    5. Religion
    6. Sexual Orientation
    7. Disability
    8. Race
    9. Member of the travelling community.

    Language is not discrimination.

    This thread reads more like "Dey took our jebs" than anything else.
    davo10 wrote: »
    I think stefanovich is trying to link the language requirement to discrimination on racial grounds (no 8). But the point is badly made as the ad does not prevent a person of any race/ethnicity applying for the job, as long as they can speak polish. (If the job required perfect Irish and ok English, 99.9% of Irish electricians probably wouldn't be able to apply either) Perhaps this is due to the team being prodominently polish but it is important that electricians can communicate with each other while working side by side.

    I does read like a "that should be my job" thread.

    If there is a valid reason for them to need to know Polish to complete the job other than them wanting to hire Polish people then okay fair enough. I reckon however that the only reason they are looking for Polish langugae is because they want Polish people only. That is discrimination regardless of the law. I am using the dictionary definition of the word.

    I have no problem with Polish people working here, I know a good few and they are hard working. What I do take issue with however is excluding the native Irish from a chance.

    Don't say "learn Polish". This is Ireland. Cop on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    That is discrimination regardless of the law. I am using the dictionary definition of the word.

    I am afraid that in the courts, the equality legislation will trump Oxfords English dictionary.

    The company is doing nothing wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Tzardine wrote: »
    I am afraid that in the courts, the equality legislation will trump Oxfords English dictionary.

    The company is doing nothing wrong.
    So your morality is guided purely by what is legal or illegal in the country you reside?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    So your morality is guided purely by what is legal or illegal in the country you reside?

    In this case I agree with the legislation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Tzardine wrote: »
    In this case I agree with the legislation.
    So, two equally qualified electricians apply for the job. The Polish applicant is chosen just because he is Polish. Perhaps the boss thinks Irish people are lazy or perhaps the boss is Polish and only wants to look after his own.

    This is not discrimination?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    So, two equally qualified electricians apply for the job. The Polish applicant is chosen just because he is Polish. Perhaps the boss thinks Irish people are lazy or perhaps the boss is Polish and only wants to look after his own.

    This is not discrimination?

    No the Polish speaker is chosen over the non Polish speaker, there's a difference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Stheno wrote: »
    No the Polish speaker is chosen over the non Polish speaker, there's a difference.
    Why would an electrician in Ireland need to speak Polish? There's no difference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    Why would an electrician in Ireland need to speak Polish? There's no difference.

    Maybe it's a company with an office in Poland.

    Maybe it's a company that uses polish parts and the instructions are in Polish.

    There are a hundred reasons why they might legitimately need polish speaking electricians.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Tzardine wrote: »
    Maybe it's a company with an office in Poland.

    Maybe it's a company that uses polish parts and the instructions are in Polish.

    There are a hundred reasons why they might legitimately need polish speaking electricians.
    I don't honestly know why you people are defending this.

    If you want to do business in Ireland then you should know English, unless you discriminate against your customers also.

    If you are in Ireland and you do not know English then you have two options:
    A) Learn it
    B) Leave


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    I don't honestly know why you people are defending this.

    If you want to do business in Ireland then you should know English, unless you discriminate against your customers also.

    If you are in Ireland and you do not know English then you have two options:
    A) Learn it
    B) Leave

    Do you have any idea how many jobs here require foreign languages? Literally thousands


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭Tzardine


    Your attitude is outdated and thankfully in the minority.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,418 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I met a Polish woman in Warsaw once who had taught herself Leaving Cert. standard Irish in a couple of years using one book and Radio na G.

    She wrote this: http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/2.663/gaeilgeoir-polannach-ar-ch%C3%BArsa-teanga-sa-ghaeltacht-1.913942

    Those crafty Poles. She may also have been an electrician, I didn't ask.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Stheno wrote: »
    No the Polish speaker is chosen over the non Polish speaker, there's a difference.

    Unlike English, which is a global language and the language of the country, Polish is not. Advertising for just polish speakers is discrinatory in most cases.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    I wonder what the reaction would be if an electrical company hired Irish speakers for no reason but to exclude the ethnically non-Irish.

    There could be a legitimate reason for polish only, if the company has exclusively polish customers (but then why is it here? And do they travel to Poland to do work on light fittings).


    Or a sales team (but then again -why are they based here?).

    But if it's just because the existing workforce is polish, that's dubious.


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