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Since when should a foreign language be needed to work in Ireland?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark



    Different situation, I imagine PayPal require people fluent in several languages as they operate in many countries and require staff to deal with customers in those countries. The position I refereed to would not be.
    If the job involved selling to Poland or something along those lines I'd understand, but it's not, it involves maintenance of a factory


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,706 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,833 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    The requirement for this does seem to impact disproporionately to favour one segment at the expense of other citizens. Offhand such language requirements have to be related to the needs of the job in question. It would be of interest if this ad was passed into the Equality Authority for their take on this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Irish_Elect_Eng


    It does seem a bit strange....

    ....but there are many possible reasons.
    • Location of Parent company.
    • Work Team Nationality.
    • Travel to other sites.
    • Technical Support of other sites.
    • Etc..

    Anyone know what company it is?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,274 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.

    I'd have thought this would be an obvious conclusion to draw from the advert. And I'm really struggling to think of some sort of discrimination angle here, if for some reason there isn't actually a need for fluent Polish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    If there are a lot of Polish workers, then being able to communicate effectively with them could well be a genuine requirement.


    I'm inclined to think that you are right, I know of at least one meat factory in Cork where the majority of workers are non native English speakers, (but not all Polish).

    However as a result this now means that a job in Ireland is effectively unavailable to a person born and raised here (Polish certainly wasn't taught in any school in my area, and the advert requests EXCELLENT POLISH and only GOOD ENGLISH)

    To be clear I have no problem with members of the EU working and living here, but I do feel that they should learn to speak English (or Irish) fluently enough to communicate in the workplace, after all they are the official state languages

    The people's Republic of Cork is apparently now a part of Poland :)

    Edit.. I know it's not really a discrimination issue


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,706 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Eoin wrote: »
    I'd have thought this would be an obvious conclusion to draw from the advert. And I'm really struggling to think of some sort of discrimination angle here, if for some reason there isn't actually a need for fluent Polish.

    There can be a discrimination angle: I've had Irish factory supervisors say "My life got so much easier once we started recruiting Polish people instead of Irish: they turn up on time, sober, you tell them to do something and they do it". So much that some now actively look to hire Polish rather than Irish workers.

    But it's not necessarily so: there are some jobs where Polish is a very handy skill to have, for reasons as pointed out.

    And there are now some Irish people who speak Polish (usually because they married a Pole).

    There will be a lot more Irish people who cannot apply for this job because they didn't get taught to be an electrician, than because they didn't get taught Polish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    I think this is a discrimination case.
    come on good English, where will they find that. most Irish people only have basic English


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 182 ✭✭Disgruntled Badger


    Will we all need to learn Polish to get work soon?

    Makes sense to me to look for someone expected to work with those nationalities? Polish for the poles and English for the Irish. Especially as safety might be a first concern.
    I doubt that there are similar positions in Poland looking for Gaelic speakers.

    The Polish correspondent for Tea-na-Gee?

    Head of the Polish branch of the Peig appreciation society?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    We're all europeans now, Irelands record on fluency in a second language is dismal


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    I always understood that discrimination was related to stuff you cannot control, such as gender, sexual orientation, race etc

    Technically if you really wanted this job you could learn to speak polish


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I'm inclined to think that you are right, I know of at least one meat factory in Cork where the majority of workers are non native English speakers, (but not all Polish).

    However as a result this now means that a job in Ireland is effectively unavailable to a person born and raised here (Polish certainly wasn't taught in any school in my area, and the advert requests EXCELLENT POLISH and only GOOD ENGLISH)

    To be clear I have no problem with members of the EU working and living here, but I do feel that they should learn to speak English (or Irish) fluently enough to communicate in the workplace, after all they are the official state languages

    The people's Republic of Cork is apparently now a part of Poland :)

    Edit.. I know it's not really a discrimination issue

    There are hundreds of jobs in Spain that rely on having English as a first language to deal with the thousands of English expats that live there

    It's the market, there were tens of thousands of Poles living and working in Ireland, ergo residual jobs may need Polish as a first language for practical reasons


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Manach wrote: »
    It would be of interest if this ad was passed into the Equality Authority for their take on this.

    Requiring foreign language skills is not an equality issue.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    I doubt that there are similar positions in Poland looking for Gaelic speakers.

    No but there are plenty of jobs which require English.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭Kournikova


    Multinationals often brag about how many jobs they create when most position have to filled from candidates applying from overseas as Ireland isn't endowed with Hebrew, Macedonian, Slovenian speakers etc. who are required for these jobs in many cases. I knew of two people who came over with their other halves from Turkey and Croatia to fill these kinds of roles.

    While I don't have an issue with it I wish the government wouldn't insult everyone's intelligence and act like these jobs are for people currently resident in Ireland and unemployed, they're clearly not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,274 ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Kournikova wrote: »
    when most position have to filled from candidates applying from overseas

    Any stats on that?
    Kournikova wrote: »
    While I don't have an issue with it I wish the government wouldn't insult everyone's intelligence and act like these jobs are for people currently resident in Ireland and unemployed, they're clearly not.

    They are jobs that are available in Ireland; I don't see the problem. A Java development job won't be suitable for someone who doesn't understand Java, but anyone in Ireland can learn Java if they want to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 284 ✭✭ArnieSilvia


    Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish:confused: You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

    Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Kournikova wrote: »
    Multinationals often brag about how many jobs they create when most position have to filled from candidates applying from overseas as Ireland isn't endowed with Hebrew, Macedonian, Slovenian speakers etc. who are required for these jobs in many cases. I knew of two people who came over with their other halves from Turkey and Croatia to fill these kinds of roles.

    While I don't have an issue with it I wish the government wouldn't insult everyone's intelligence and act like these jobs are for people currently resident in Ireland and unemployed, they're clearly not.

    Yes but those jobs are being filled in Ireland, the employee pays tax in ireland , buys goods in Ireland. I'll warrant that those foreign workers are helping keep a decent number of Irish workers in jobs as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish:confused: You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

    Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?

    But currently Irish and English are the state languages, perhaps given the large Polish community in Ireland now we need to add Polish as an official state language and make it compulsory in schools.

    (And to reiterate, the job in question was not one dealing with external foreign customers or suppliers, obviously certain jobs require foreign languages when there is extensive dealing with other nations)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,192 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Polish is spoken natively by way more people in ireland than Irish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Requiring foreign language skills is not an equality issue.

    It could possibly be discrimination based on nationality. It would depend on the circumstances.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭Jen44


    There are plenty of jobs abroad where English is a requirement despite it not being that countries first language!


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    It could possibly be discrimination based on nationality. It would depend on the circumstances.

    Then it would not be based on language skills would it? At the moment the fact remains that they are only looking for language skills no matter how much people want to read into it.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    (And to reiterate, the job in question was not one dealing with external foreign customers or suppliers, obviously certain jobs require foreign languages when there is extensive dealing with other nations)

    That has absolutely nothing to do with it. The company is fully entitled to seek languages skills for any position they are not required to justify it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,706 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish:confused: You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

    Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?

    Indeed.

    Language requirement can act as a type of proxy discrimination on the basis of nationality (and arguably the do for many public sector jobs).

    But language requirements aren't necessarily about discrimination: teachers in Ireland do need to have an adequate level of Irish-language, because they have to teach Irish. (Arguably they should also have to have a minimum level of maths too ... but that's an argument for a different thread.)

    Similarly, some electricians / maintenance engineers / housing-officers etc do need to speak Polish because they need to convey important safety information to colleagues / customers whose main language is Polish.

    Without more information, we cannot know if this is the case in the job the OP is referring to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    I think I posted this in the wrong forum.

    It doesn't really bother me about one job where I agree if that's what the employer thinks is required then they are entitled to put it in the job spec., for all I care they could have added being able to juggle whilst walking a tightrope blindfolded. (I'm in full time permanent employment so it doesn't directly affect me)

    What does concern me is that we now have many industries who are employing large numbers of "non nationals" far in excess of the percentage in the general population. I have experience of a site where more than 80% were Eastern Europe an (signage was in about four different languages), despite the 2011 census stating only approx 2.7% were Polish.


    I fully believe that they have every right to work here and even where possible to help them overcome language issues by having documents in their own language etc.

    But the result of this is that it will become even more difficult for some members of the community to find work even in low skilled jobs. Some would say it's their own fault for not going to university and getting a degree, but not everyone does.

    Regardless should they be left unemployed?

    Are we wasting resources teaching Irish when Polish is more widely spoken?


    As I said at the beginning I think this is the wrong forum, it's probably more of a social issue than a work issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    ......

    Regardless should they be left unemployed?
    .......

    No one is left unemployed and very few are handed a job, most people work hard to get and job and retain it. There are schemes and courses for people who want to gain skills to improve their chances of getting a job. If they do not participate and keep expecting to be handed a job, then yes, they will be left unemployed, by their own decisions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Look at it from different angle: Try getting a job in a school as a teacher here without Irish:confused: You can't expect anybody outside of Ireland to have Irish on Leaving Cert surely?

    Wouldn't same apply for public service jobs re: Irish?

    I passed an aptitude test for a public service job years ago and was offered an interview, then a few days later they seen that I didn't have Irish (I'm from the North)so I had my interview cancelled. I was a-bulling.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    But the result of this is that it will become even more difficult for some members of the community to find work even in low skilled jobs. Some would say it's their own fault for not going to university and getting a degree, but not everyone does.

    Well first of all you don't need a degree to learn a language, you just need motivation. I see plenty of people here (Switzerland) with little education learning German, French or Italian and they succeed.

    Second, the EU objective is for every citizen to speak at least 3 EU languages at A2 or higher...
    Regardless should they be left unemployed?

    Look at it from the other side, where would be the point in employing someone who could not communicate with the rest of the team, just be cause he/she is Irish.

    Here in Switzerland we have a similar situation - most of the workers in the construction industry speak Serbo-Croatian and as a result it is not at all unusual for Swiss civil engineers, tradesmen etc... to take courses in Serbo-Croatian in order to get on, it is just a fact of life.
    Are we wasting resources teaching Irish when Polish is more widely spoken?

    From a practical point of view yes. I spent two of the past 30 years working through Irish and that is more than most people do!


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