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Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

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    #242
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    smash wrote: »
    This swings around in circles to the other side of the coin which is "If abortion is available and both parties can't agree and a woman decides not to undergo the procedure, then should the man have a right to walk away from the situation without consequence?" There are as much men who don't want to be fathers as there are women who don't want to be mothers.

    If a baby is born, both parents are equally responsible for it. In an ideal world, both parents would agree, but if not, it comes down to the woman's right to choose.

    There is no way of equalising this.

    A man can walk away from that responsibility- and many do - but genetically he is the father.


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    #243
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    cowboyBuilder wrote: »
    It will never change peoples minds, it's too emotive a topic.

    I don't see it as a childs life - when the pregnancy is at an early stage, either way it's the womans choice.
    Its always strange to me the way pro lifers are so protective of the life of the child - yet once it's born they don't really give a **** ..

    Silly argument really. Do those that are pro-"choice" actively take an interest in the woman after she has the abortion? For example, if, like a lot of women, she requires counselling afterwards, I presume she would get financial support from pro-"choice" organisations?


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    #244
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    keano_afc wrote: »
    SDo those that are pro-"choice" actively take an interest in the woman after she has the abortion? For example, if, like a lot of women, she requires counselling afterwards, I presume she would get financial support from pro-"choice" organisations?

    Yes they do. In many (most?) cases the organisations that support/carry out abortions also provide post abortion counselling services to those that want them. Obviously they're not carrying out abortions in Ireland but institutions like the Irish Family Planning Association, Well Women clinics, Marie Stopes provide follow up medical care and counselling after abortions.

    The IFPA's is free: https://www.ifpa.ie/Pregnancy-Counselling/Post-Abortion-Counselling
    Can't be arsed to keep googling.


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    #245
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Silly argument really. Do those that are pro-"choice" actively take an interest in the woman after she has the abortion? For example, if, like a lot of women, she requires counselling afterwards, I presume she would get financial support from pro-"choice" organisations?


    I would defo want her to have the appropriate counselling, although not every woman feels the need. We're all assuming it's a huge, major trauma for every single woman. Not the case. For plenty, the decision is clear (while not "easy"). 95% of women have zero regrets or second thoughts.


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    #246
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Silly argument really. Do those that are pro-"choice" actively take an interest in the woman after she has the abortion? For example, if, like a lot of women, she requires counselling afterwards, I presume she would get financial support from pro-"choice" organisations?

    Ah silly you, you're just supposed to cart it out that they don't actually care about women, make some sound-bite about how you've never seen a pro-choice group organise a soup kitchen for homeless females and leave it at that.


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    #247
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Hi evil twin

    I guess the difference for me is that the fetus relies on one person to survive whereas a born child can be raised by anybody. I don't believe in abortion as contraception tbh but I do see how it could be necessary in other circumstances.

    My gut tells me it's wrong to mirder a child whether born or not and that it's not fair to use the 'it's my body' line as an excuse. Yes it's your body but it is a short term incubator for a baby. A baby of your making. To me that's a whole human being who won't be around in 10 years time because of the 'mothers' decision.

    I've a number of friends and family members who are adopted and I'm glad their mothers had / chose to have them. Thinking about them being aborted just upsets me no end.

    I guess, as I don't agree with abortion other than for medical / mental health reasons eg after rape etc then I think of its against the laws of the land then people should be treated accordingly.

    C
    Why would the circumstances of conception be relevant? How would you determine conception was the result of rape? Is it murder to have an abortion in rape cases?


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    #248
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Silly argument really. Do those that are pro-"choice" actively take an interest in the woman after she has the abortion? For example, if, like a lot of women, she requires counselling afterwards, I presume she would get financial support from pro-"choice" organisations?

    Actually pro-choice advocates don't believe women should rush into abortions at all. Most, like myself, always advocate counselling before making any decision. Ultimately we know that no one knows better than the woman herself what is the right thing for her at that time. Non directive, non judgemental couselling should be available at all stages for anyone affected by an unplanned/crisis pregnancy.


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    #249
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,715 ✭ [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    no one knows better than the woman herself what is the right thing for her at that time.

    The right thing is never an abortion, nobody should have the power to end the life of an unborn child with just a stroke of their hand. Its extreme arrogance.


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    #250
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    The right thing is never an abortion, nobody should have the power to end the life of an unborn child with just a stroke of their hand. Its extreme arrogance.

    I think its extreme arrogance to tell another person what is the right thing to do for them when you know nothing about them or their situation.


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    #251
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Actually pro-choice advocates don't believe women should rush into abortions at all. Most, like myself, always advocate counselling before making any decision. Ultimately we know that no one knows better than the woman herself what is the right thing for her at that time. Non directive, non judgemental couselling should be available at all stages for anyone affected by an unplanned/crisis pregnancy.

    I felt extremely pressured by well woman to choose abortion. The "counselling" they provided was extremely directive imo. When I attended a counselling session there to "discuss my options" and I expressed that I wanted to keep the baby i was basically told that I would not be able to continue with the pregnancy and my education, that there was nothing they could really do for me/advise me but that if i change my mind about my decision i could get in touch. That was years ago though so hopefully it has changed since then.


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    #252
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    The right thing is never an abortion, nobody should have the power to end the life of an unborn child with just a stroke of their hand. Its extreme arrogance.

    So even if my life is at risk I should never have an abortion?


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    #253
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    The right thing is never an abortion, nobody should have the power to end the life of an unborn child with just a stroke of their hand. Its extreme arrogance.

    Are you absolutely certain that ending the life of something that isn't yet sentient is worse than being an unwanted, possibly unloved child into this world. No matter what kind of abuse they might be subjected to? No matter how severe the hardship they might have to endure? No matter how life-limiting and chronically painful their lives might be?

    How can you know that? That seems arrogant.


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    #254
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,715 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lazygal wrote: »
    So even if my life is at risk I should never have an abortion?

    If you are dying on the table and saving you means the baby doesn't make it then I would see that as an acceptable reason.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Are you absolutely certain that ending the life of something that isn't yet sentient is worse than being an unwanted, possibly unloved child into this world. No matter what kind of abuse they might be subjected to? No matter how severe the hardship they might have to endure? No matter how life-limiting and chronically painful their lives might be?

    How can you know that? That seems arrogant.

    There are long waiting lists for adoption by families not capable of having children themselves so plenty of loving homes out there with are infinitely better options than abortion.


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    #255
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Are you absolutely certain that ending the life of something that isn't yet sentient is worse than being an unwanted, possibly unloved child into this world. No matter what kind of abuse they might be subjected to? No matter how severe the hardship they might have to endure? No matter how life-limiting and chronically painful their lives might be?

    How can you know that? That seems arrogant.

    Well I think a bit of hardship is better than being cut into smithereens or sucked into a Hoover bag.

    I don't consider termination of a child with life ending issues to be an abortion. I consider it as a termination. Aborting a healthy child instead of putting them up for adoption is just incomprehensible to me.


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    #256
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    If you are dying on the table and saving you means the baby doesn't make it then I would see that as an acceptable reason.


    There are long waiting lists for adoption by families not capable of having children themselves so plenty of loving homes out there with are infinitely better options than abortion.
    Why should I stay pregnant because other couples want to adopt a child?


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    #257
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,715 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why should I stay pregnant because other couples want to adopt a child?

    Because there should be no other option, it shouldn't even be a discussion. If you get pregnant you have the baby simple as that.


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    #258
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Well I think a bit of hardship is better than being cut into smithereens or sucked into a Hoover bag.

    I'm guessing that you know as well as I do that these days, the vast majority of abortions carried out before 9 weeks are medical terminations done by taking a tablet and having something like a heavy period.


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    #259
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Arguments for and against abortion http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionArgumen.htm


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    #260
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Well I think a bit of hardship is better than being cut into smithereens or sucked into a Hoover bag.

    I don't consider termination of a child with life ending issues to be an abortion. I consider it as a termination. Aborting a healthy child instead of putting them up for adoption is just incomprehensible to me.
    Forcing someone to stay pregnant against their wishes and without regard to their health is incomprehensible to me. How far should the state go in terms of enforcement of pregnancy?


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    #261
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    But also can be performed until 24 weeks


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    #262
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    Because there should be no other option, it shouldn't even be a discussion. If you get pregnant you have the baby simple as that.

    Unless you can travel. Should the right to travel to kill the unborn be repealed?


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    #263
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    lazygal wrote: »
    Forcing someone to stay pregnant against their wishes and without regard to their health is incomprehensible to me. How far should the state go in terms of enforcement of pregnancy?

    Have you not noticed I'm ignoring you


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    #264
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    CaraMay wrote: »
    But also can be performed until 24 weeks

    Yes. What's this supposed to prove? Abortions can be carried out for myriad reasons at 24 weeks.


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    #265
    Arkady
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Arkady


    lazygal wrote: »
    So even if my life is at risk I should never have an abortion?

    There's already abortion available in Ireland for that.


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    #266
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Have you not noticed I'm ignoring you

    Doing a great job of that


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    #267
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    There are long waiting lists for adoption by families not capable of having children themselves so plenty of loving homes out there with are infinitely better options than abortion.

    I have personal experience of the pain adoption can bring to both the birth family and the adoptive family. It's easy to trot that line out but it's a far from perfect solution imo.

    I don't think I would have an abortion, but I wouldn't presume to know enough to make that decision for others.

    I don't think a woman should have to carry on with a pregnancy that will have massive effects on her health, her body, her psychological state, her finances and her relationships (among other things) if she doesn't want to.


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    #268
    CaraMay
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    Tasden wrote: »
    Doing a great job of that

    Just reminding her cos she continues to direct comments at me


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    #269
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    CaraMay wrote: »
    But also can be performed until 24 weeks

    Far more common to have late abortions for Irish women because it takes time to make the travel arrangements.

    Fewer than 1% of abortions are carried out in the third trimester and the vast majority of those cases are the termination of a desired pregnancy due to life limiting conditions and health concerns with respect to the mother.


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    #270
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Unless the mother is dying or the child can't make it when its born how can people justify killing a healthy baby at 24 weeks


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    #271
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Unless the mother is dying or the child can't make it when its born how can people justify killing a healthy baby at 24 weeks

    I would be very much against that except in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities.


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