ASTI turns up the pressure.

Inspector Coptoor

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So lets just say you offset all your CP hours with EC without doing anything different. And we'll assume that all the teachers in your school (or maybe even all teachers in Ireland!) offset all their CP hours with EC.

What then is the point of having CP hours?
What extra 'productivity' have the dept. gained in terms of budgets and money.

This is why I think CP can never be 'written off' with other non-teaching/planning duties. The dept. want us ALL in meetings as they can say it is for whole-school planning/school development and thus count it as productive.

Once the dept starts to quantify individual Extra Curricular as 'productivity' then it introduces the notion quantifying each persons effort.

What of the teachers who dont partake in EC... would you suggest they be sent off on CPD courses instead. Why are they deemed as needing up-skilling in their teaching whereas others(who use EC) don't?

I'll be very honest and say I don't care what teachers who don't do EC do.

I don't do EC to "count hours", I just do it.

I have a huge objection to CP hours blocking me from doing my voluntary EC hours.

The teachers who don't do EC can tick any boxes they like however they like.

I do around 10 hours a week EC or 350 plus hours per academic year.
Once we start counting Hours and taking the good will out of teaching, we have already lost.

r93kaey5p2izun

And what about those being paid for EC involvement? That would be a can of worms too if they could also offset hours.

It's a complicated proposal but no matter what way you want to look at it the end of these frustratingly pointless hours altogether would be to everyone's benefit - not least the students!

acequion

amacca wrote: »

Of course its unlikely to happen but if teachers worked together and showed some solidarity in the interests of the profession and each other and put a stop to all extra curricular while the CP hours are in place then perhaps this debate would be a whole lot different.

Most give much more than they have to (for many different reasons - including large class sizes, being treated as childminders rather than educators, poor disciplinary backup leading to chasing tails and engaging in CYA activities while tails continue to wag dogs never mind preparation, correcting, pandering to the school being used as a dumping ground for whatever new "initiative" turns up next week, organising debates, young scientist entries, foreign tours, multiple different sports teams, art competitions, open evenings fielding calls from sometimes deluded sometimes irate parents who have had the wool pulled over their eyes or are deliberately causing hassle for reasons of their own etc etc I'm sure I've missed out many more time eaters on top of contact hours which have become increasingly challenging due to being authority figures with little actual authority)

if they stopped and just did the CP hours and had the balls to stay the course I reckon it wouldn't be too long before the validity of picking a soft target and imposing bull**** CP hours to improve "productivity" would be reassessed.

Agree with Gebgbegb about petty measurement killing education btw - I'd call the measurement thats gone on so far shortsighted, ignorant and most of all politically expedient measurement with little or nothing to do with actual education.

Agree completely. I think it's high time teachers did what they are paid to do and no more. Extra curricular is free labour at a time when even the paid labour of teachers is hugely underrated.

political analyst

Foster Large Self-defense wrote: »

And what about those being paid for EC involvement? That would be a can of worms too if they could also offset hours.

It's a complicated proposal but no matter what way you want to look at it the end of these frustratingly pointless hours altogether would be to everyone's benefit - not least the students!

Extra-curricular work is voluntary. So how can it be paid?

r93kaey5p2izun

political analyst wrote: »

Extra-curricular work is voluntary. So how can it be paid?

It's voluntary in that you aren't required to do it but it can be paid privately by a school. Of course it is unpaid in the vast majority of cases but there is a minority of schools paying for coaching in certain sports. I also know cases of paid debating coaches, science project supervision and music tuition. It's a minority but it would certainly cause controversy if tgey could use it to offset CP hours.

evolving_doors

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'll be very honest and say I don't care what teachers who don't do EC do.

And I'll be honest and say that practically no-one cares what extra curricular we do either (apart from the students, who'll come and go over time).

But wouldnt you envisage that it would be dividing the profession even further. Why should we even countenance these CP hours as being worthy of negotiation?
There is no negotiation to be done, the hours are pointless. Once people start accepting that it is negotiable then the terms of the contract you subscribe to after negotiation are always up for review. i.e. we're easily bought (FEMPI hasn't gone away despite what Michael Noonan said!).

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I don't do EC to "count hours", I just do it.

That's precisely what you would be engaging in if you were to offset EC against CP i.e. Counting hours.

If you just do EC now then 'just keep on doing it' and keep the apples away from the oranges.
I think that by tying in Extra curricular we would be making rods to beat our own back with (in the long term). It will always be 'on the table' in discussions.

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I have a huge objection to CP hours blocking me from doing my voluntary EC hours.

This will not make Croke park hours go away, I think that by teachers accepting them and bargaining with them we would be giving their existence a justification, and as a result copper-fastening them into our terms and conditions of employment.

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The teachers who don't do EC can tick any boxes they like however they like.

Hence why we should stop splitting the profession further. We will all have to pay in some shape or form if we as teachers continue to look for ways to justify these hours. These hours are not ours to defend.

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I do around 10 hours a week EC or 350 plus hours per academic year.
Once we start counting Hours and taking the good will out of teaching, we have already lost.

I agree.

political analyst

amacca wrote: »

Most give much more than they have to (for many different reasons - including large class sizes, being treated as childminders rather than educators, poor disciplinary backup leading to chasing tails and engaging in CYA activities while tails continue to wag dogs never mind preparation, correcting, pandering to the school being used as a dumping ground for whatever new "initiative" turns up next week, organising debates, young scientist entries, foreign tours, multiple different sports teams, art competitions, open evenings fielding calls from sometimes deluded sometimes irate parents who have had the wool pulled over their eyes or are deliberately causing hassle for reasons of their own etc etc I'm sure I've missed out many more time eaters on top of contact hours which have become increasingly challenging due to being authority figures with little actual authority)

Sure, why wouldn't the principal back-up teachers in the discipline of pupils?! After all, I'm sure that principals don't want to be accused of disloyalty to staff (the principal of a secondary school in the south-east was kicked out of the union (I'm not saying which one) for that).

evolving_doors

I think maybe we'll keep that for another thread politicalanalyist.
Back on topic thanks
MOD

Chilli Con Kearney

The amount of extra curricular sport I do has been curtailed by the croke park hours, pure and simple. I'm not "for" or "against" linking the hours to extra curricular but I do think it is unrealistic and unfair to ask/expect/presurise/whatever teachers to do both.

With the agreement coming to an end this year, we have kept our side of it up. Now we are being railroad into keeping the hours, which if it happens once, will remain forever. The hours are not worth the miserly 2.5% increase on offer. We will never be millionaires, but teaching has/had decent conditions. If we start chasing money, we are goosed. If we are serious about making a statement about no more hours (we've done our bit, now take them away, give us the s&s and increments like you said you would) then we need to show we mean business.

I would suggest mandating our unions (conventions upcoming) for blanket bans on extra curricular activities as long as these hours are forced upon us again. But it won't happen because members will as usual, cry "think of the children". I'm with them, I believe in thinking of the children by doing sports but not as well as I can when I'm forced to sit with 40 others and read pointless policies.

mirrorwall14

I have rolled back on extracurricular because of the Croke park hours. I used to help out with maths as well as music. Now music is enough on top of extra hours

amacca

OH has rolled back on a lot of extra curricular too due mainly to CP. Those hours seem to have done a hell of a lot more harm than good.

evolving_doors

Yup, just stick to the deal that was made. Once we start caving into nonsense then we're a soft target.
Croke Park has had its day, lets not give it any more justification.

political analyst

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/secondary-school-teachers-threaten-autumn-strikes-1.2575948

Second-level teachers have warned of strikes in the autumn if the ongoing dispute over proposed changes to the junior cycle is not resolved.

The ASTI union said on Wednesday night that if the row was not settled it would plan “a series of strike days” when schools resume after the summer holidays.

How about using the new Junior Cycle assessment system as a bargaining chip to extract a significant concession on the Croke Park hours?

mirrorwall14

Or not. Croke Park Hours run out in June. Why in Gods name would we incorporate them into the new Junior Cycle?!

seavill

I would imagine because CP hours are going as we didn't sign up to LR and they wer against assessment of own students so agreeing to that to help cut something else would defeat everything they were fighting for in the first place

political analyst

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Or not. Croke Park Hours run out in June. Why in Gods name would we incorporate them into the new Junior Cycle?!

Oh, I forgot about that.

Apologies.

mirrorwall14

political analyst wrote: »

Oh, I forgot about that.

Apologies.

I was like, what, thats not like you political analyst??! NOOOOOOOOO.

My staff are like this. Oh is that what it means? Handing over ballot papers to them. "What is this about again?" or worse "which way should I be voting?".

BonCourage

Gebgbegb wrote: »

And I'll be honest and say that practically no-one cares what extra curricular we do either (apart from the students, who'll come and go over time).

But wouldnt you envisage that it would be dividing the profession even further. Why should we even countenance these CP hours as being worthy of negotiation?
There is no negotiation to be done, the hours are pointless. Once people start accepting that it is negotiable then the terms of the contract you subscribe to after negotiation are always up for review. i.e. we're easily bought (FEMPI hasn't gone away despite what Michael Noonan said!).


That's precisely what you would be engaging in if you were to offset EC against CP i.e. Counting hours.

If you just do EC now then 'just keep on doing it' and keep the apples away from the oranges.
I think that by tying in Extra curricular we would be making rods to beat our own back with (in the long term). It will always be 'on the table' in discussions.



This will not make Croke park hours go away, I think that by teachers accepting them and bargaining with them we would be giving their existence a justification, and as a result copper-fastening them into our terms and conditions of employment.



Hence why we should stop splitting the profession further. We will all have to pay in some shape or form if we as teachers continue to look for ways to justify these hours. These hours are not ours to defend.



I agree.

This was like a perfect example of SEE - Statement Explanation Example! :cool:

MrJones1973

Lets see what happens.Bottom line is this-the Government will move to tweak Landowne road-the ASTI will legally have to put this tweak to members then the brain dead proles that we call colleagues will say "we have to vote Yes as they keep asking us to vote Yes" What a laugh-it wouldn't matter how many times I ask you to run naked down the main street-the answer should still be no. Same logic applies to this. Threats of redundancy are bull.

As for all the PR about young teachers/different pay scales-there will be 3 different pay scales indefinitely and the best to hope for is a gap closure between them but no way Hosea will anything go beyond that? Why-these so called new entrants cant be bothered to go to meetings (though our branch aint bad) and secondly dont have the balls for a long strike.

Frankly frank

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Lets see what happens.Bottom line is this-the Government will move to tweak Landowne road-the ASTI will legally have to put this tweak to members then the brain dead proles that we call colleagues will say "we have to vote Yes as they keep asking us to vote Yes" What a laugh-it wouldn't matter how many times I ask you to run naked down the main street-the answer should still be no. Same logic applies to this. Threats of redundancy are bull.

As for all the PR about young teachers/different pay scales-there will be 3 different pay scales indefinitely and the best to hope for is a gap closure between them but no way Hosea will anything go beyond that? Why-these so called new entrants cant be bothered to go to meetings (though our branch aint bad) and secondly dont have the balls for a long strike.

Generalisation and I'm alright jack attitude. Thanks a bunch.

MrJones1973

Frankly frank wrote: »

Generalisation and I'm alright jack attitude. Thanks a bunch.

Exactly where am I generalizing? You have no idea whether Im 'alright' or not? You have no idea of my financial situation. You have no idea of my past situation or present situation.
The way new entrants go on you think most permanent teachers were born in the school they serve in. I spent six years being paid by the hour. No summer pay. I have a property in negative equity and have to deal with spousal unemployment. It was always tough to make a living and always will be. I was fortunate to be incremental before changes but I have had my fair dollop of **** too!
But if we want to end the three pay scales-which is a moral imperative then we need a prolonged strike
Fact-the membership have continually given in to avoid a prolonged strike. I would love to see your strategy for getting rid of three pay scales. Mine is a long strike-you might at least get down to 2 pay scales then.
We could also do with young entrants actually going to meetings-at present most dont and then wonder why nothing changes??

I await your solution or detailed critique

ethical

Nothing will be gained by members of the teaching profession sniping at each other! Infact it will only give more ammo to the media (Indo) to drive a bigger stake down between the many groupings that make up teachers as regards payscales.There are a hell of alot of issues within the profession that needs to be sorted.The payscale thing is a total joke.The number of teachers that will finish their careers without getting a full pension (35 or 40 years service will be unheard of soon enough). There are many teachers who have been around for ten years plus without getting a permanent job and will find themselves with some thing like 20 years pensionable service which will be of damn all benefit for a so called professional.A position with less responsibility pays a better retirement salary than teaching does.Do not be surprised if there is middle ground looked for,might we all be put on a half way point between the lower payscale and the higher payscale? Do not be surprised.Remember we are still in FEMPI as far as the government is concerned while others are told the recession is over!

Icsics

There are so many fronts we could be fighting for that I think we need to take a step by step approach. The first is to get rid of the CP hours. This is pressing as schools will be timetabling meetings etc for next year & need to know. So lets start there. We will be balloted before the end of term, lets get rid of those dreaded hours & then look to the next battle.

MrJones1973

Icsics wrote: »

There are so many fronts we could be fighting for that I think we need to take a step by step approach. The first is to get rid of the CP hours. This is pressing as schools will be timetabling meetings etc for next year & need to know. So lets start there. We will be balloted before the end of term, lets get rid of those dreaded hours & then look to the next battle.

The government attacks on several fronts. We must as well-unfortunately. Curriculum, initiatives and conditions to just name three fronts. Then there is the teaching council who also must be watched. The government won't stop so why should we pick one area?
JC english assessment due in oct for oral.exam.

SligoBrewer

Nice to see people still going on about Croke Park hours when I'm down a quarter of a million over the course of my career.

mirrorwall14

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Nice to see people still going on about Croke Park hours when I'm down a quarter of a million over the course of my career.

Is there a reason we shouldn't fight on multiple fronts? The croke park hours are also an issue. Not the only issue obviously. But definitely one to be comforted

SligoBrewer

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Is there a reason we shouldn't fight on multiple fronts? The croke park hours are also an issue. Not the only issue obviously. But definitely one to be comforted

Young teachers are expected to be in schools well over the Croke Park hours doing EC and other stuff in order to fight for contracts for next year, let alone CID. Yet we're also caned with a ridiculous pay scale, 20 hours of pointless NIPT meetings, zero job security and older people sniping that we've no entitlement to say anything because we don't attend branch meetings.

I don't know, I'd love to have the time to go to a branch meeting to voice my frustrations but I'm back in college that time every week because the Teaching Council say that I've to bend over backwards to teach one specific subject.

Croke Park hours are the least of my concern.

mirrorwall14

They should be your concern. Everything to do with your profession is your concern. They are a deterioration of YOUR conditions.

I've been that young teacher. I was years on part time contracts. I did and still do extracurricular (music teacher-it's assumed part of the job).

Yes, I was lucky. I made it into the profession by the skin of my teeth before the pay scales changed.

The pay scales are being fought. Every poor condition should be fought, whether it affects permanent or non permanent it doesn't matter.

Have you considered that the only reason the 'good' pay scales were there in the first place was because the teachers that you are being quite dismissive of fought for those conditions? They fought for class sizes. They fought for jobs.

It is absolutely nuts for you to have an us versus them attitude to other teachers in your own professions. Contrary to what some teachers seem to believe, it was not teachers who cut your pay-we don't pay you?! The government do. Blame them. Unite against them. Fight against all deteriorations of our contracts. We did not impose the teaching council regulation on you, the government did

joebloggs32

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Young teachers are expected to be in schools well over the Croke Park hours doing EC and other stuff in order to fight for contracts for next year, let alone CID. Yet we're also caned with a ridiculous pay scale, 20 hours of pointless NIPT meetings, zero job security and older people sniping that we've no entitlement to say anything because we don't attend branch meetings.

I don't know, I'd love to have the time to go to a branch meeting to voice my frustrations but I'm back in college that time every week because the Teaching Council say that I've to bend over backwards to teach one specific subject.

Croke Park hours are the least of my concern.

We all went through the lack of job security and doing extra curricular just the same as you. It took me 8 years to get to full CID. At least with the ward report that processes has been speeded up.
I may not have been screwed on the payscale like you, but instead I am the proud owner of a negative equity, Celtic tiger mortgage. These extra croke park hours are a financial drain on people in my situation with young kids as it increases child care cost. You will find this out in the future if they are still in place. As others have said, pay can and will be improved, sooner rather than later in my opinion, but changes in working conditions are harder to reverse.

seavill

So you are complaining about people not caring about NQTs yet CP hours are "the least of your concern" so when its not important to you it doesn't matter, do you not see the irony in your post no?

It took me 7 years to get job security, I'm now 10 years teaching, lack of job security is not a new thing. We had to wait until you were in your 5th year to get CID, not 2nd year like NQTs now. Some things changed for better, some for worse

I will be staying back doing EC and helping my project classes for at least 8 hours this week alone, doing that stuff is not something unique to NQTs.

My pension scheme is not as good as those that started 1 year before me (I think, might have been 2 years) that happened to us, screwing different people in different ways happened in the good times too, again nothing new. The extreme manner that it was done in recent years is new and disgraceful, but there are already different levels within the profession before 2011

The reason the government are winning is because they have created a divide within the profession, you are giving that you have to do these 20 hours for new teachers ONCE (yes they are a pain in the hole but they are a once off), yet you again dont see the irony in your argument when people are trying to fight to make sure you don't have to do 33 extra hours EVERY year for the rest of your career.

The unions are not going to fight singly on one issue, they are going to attack on multiple fronts to fight for conditions that will effect you for the next 40 years. One being pay scale, one people extra hours, one being the extra workload from new JC, look at the bigger picture and everyone support everyone elses causes and we might actually get somewhere instead of sniping at each other and infighting.