ASTI turns up the pressure.

political analyst

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-motions-may-spark-fresh-industrial-unrest-in-schools-1.2547174

Schools may face widespread industrial action next autumn if teachers with the biggest second-level union propose next month to stop working additional hours agreed under the Croke Park deal.

The 18,000-strong Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland (ASTI) is due to debate motions at its annual convention in late March that place the union on collision course with the Government over pay and productivity reforms, along with reforms to the junior cycle.

The Haddington Road deal expires at the end of June.

Obviously, teachers - secondary ones especially - are unhappy about losing money but I think that it's about much more than that.

If there is further industrial action taken by the ASTI, it probably won't cause inconvenience to pupils and their parents because, initially, it would involve withdrawal from the CP hours and continued refusal to assess pupils under the JCSA because the continuous assessment, unlike under Ruairí Quinn's plan, will not form part of the State exam results and thus the lack of such assessment will have no impact on pupils.

solerina

political analyst wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-motions-may-spark-fresh-industrial-unrest-in-schools-1.2547174



The Haddington Road deal expires at the end of June.

Obviously, teachers - secondary ones especially - are unhappy about losing money but I think that it's about much more than that.

If there is further industrial action taken by the ASTI, it probably won't cause inconvenience to pupils and their parents because, initially, it would involve withdrawal from the CP hours and continued refusal to assess pupils under the JCSA because the continuous assessment, unlike under Ruairí Quinn's plan, will not form part of the State exam results and thus the lack of such assessment will have no impact on pupils.

Yes we have lost money but you are correct this is about more than money. These CP hours are so controlled that most of them amount to nothing more than sitting in a room looking over pointless planning documents while watching the clock tick by. I would gladly put up with the lost money if I never had to sit through these hours again !!!!

mick kk

I agree. I would gladly take a hit to pay if I didn't have to sit through these pointless meetings. In fact, they cost money to many of us who have children who need babysitters while the meetings take place. It is so ironic that an initiative that is supposed to increase productivity has the exact opposite effect. 40 people sitting in a room talking about the photocopier that keeps breaking down..... Oh sweet Jesus!

Inspector Coptoor

It shouldn't even be up for a debate at congress.

The motion should read:
"The ASTI will withdraw from croke park hours from July 2016 with immediate effect".

I hope they don't put withdrawal of CP Hours to a members ballot.

Decide it at congress or standing committee.

This would mean 1/2 of parent teacher meetings come back inside school hours which would be a welcome addition.

doc_17

I wonder is there any such motion on the TUI Congress Clar? I see the GAA are offering an opinion on this subject now as well. They believe that sport should count towards those hours.

But if they go, but I don't think they will, I won't miss them.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

I wonder is there any such motion on the TUI Congress Clar? I see the GAA are offering an opinion on this subject now as well. They believe that sport should count towards those hours.

But if they go, but I don't think they will, I won't miss them.

Why don't you think they'll go? We're hardly such clowns as to continue doing them once HR expires and we've already voted no to LR!! Jesus wept if we are.:eek:

The last poster is right. It shouldn't even be up for debate. Having the P/T meetings back in the half in /out is not only desirable but humane. We had a P/T yesterday eve and I watched a young colleague go flat out to the parents of three groups for a solid two and a half hours and was surely there long after I had left (I had only one group). This person will never last until 67. It's plain wrong to force a teacher to do this after a full day in the classroom.

As for the GAA rolling in,great but where does that leave those of us who don't do sport or extra curricular? Scrap those inhumane hours is the only solution!!

Inspector Coptoor

Those who do coaching should be allowed count hours coaching as "Croke Park" hours.
The same with any other co-curricular activities.

If you don't do any co-curricular, find some CPD courses to do.

This will all be immaterial anyway WHEN those accursed hours are done away with.

r93kaey5p2izun

Absolutely extra curricular activities should have counted when these stupid hours were accepted by the unions - but that should all be immaterial now as there should be no question about stopping this nonsense once the current agreement ends. I hope the TUI will also be turning up the pressure.

acequion

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Those who do coaching should be allowed count hours coaching as "Croke Park" hours.
The same with any other co-curricular activities.

If you don't do any co-curricular, find some CPD courses to do.

This will all be immaterial anyway WHEN those accursed hours are done away with.

Disagree here. Call them co-curricular or extra curricular they are still extra unpaid hours on top of a badly paid job! So no way should an already hard working and overworked teacher have to do some stupid CPD courses on top of all that just to satisfy the demands of regressive agreements like CP, HR or LR.

If teachers want to do extra like sport or music or even extra coaching of students, fine. If they don't, fine as well. But if they are forced to do any such,they should refuse and just do what they are paid for.

But at the end of the day we all well know that teachers have always given far and away more than credited or indeed,paid for.

So,let's get rid of the punitive hours!

Frankly frank

And still no mention of equal pay in article ...
strike over JC , possible strike over CP but no strike over 2 tier payscales.
Asti are a joke

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

Disagree here. Call them co-curricular or extra curricular they are still extra unpaid hours on top of a badly paid job! So no way should an already hard working and overworked teacher have to do some stupid CPD courses on top of all that just to satisfy the demands of regressive agreements like CP, HR or LR.

If teachers want to do extra like sport or music or even extra coaching of students, fine. If they don't, fine as well. But if they are forced to do any such,they should refuse and just do what they are paid for.

But at the end of the day we all well know that teachers have always given far and away more than credited or indeed,paid for.

So,let's get rid of the punitive hours!

Yup, i totally agree too. Once you write your extra curricular/CPD into CP then it becomes mandatory and impossible to untangle.

It's essentially comes down to extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (from what I gathered in my Philosophy of Ed. lectures).
Extrinsic: You do it because you want to.
Intrinsic: You do it because you have to.

Inspector Coptoor

acequion wrote: »

Disagree here. Call them co-curricular or extra curricular they are still extra unpaid hours on top of a badly paid job! So no way should an already hard working and overworked teacher have to do some stupid CPD courses on top of all that just to satisfy the demands of regressive agreements like CP, HR or LR.

If teachers want to do extra like sport or music or even extra coaching of students, fine. If they don't, fine as well. But if they are forced to do any such,they should refuse and just do what they are paid for.

But at the end of the day we all well know that teachers have always given far and away more than credited or indeed,paid for.

So,let's get rid of the punitive hours!

Disagree away.
I've no problem with people disagreeing with me and we'll all be civil.

I coach because I really enjoy it.
It helps build relationships with students outside of the classroom which ultimately make the relationship and behavior in the classroom even better.

Don't get me wrong, I want those toxic hours gone and the money for S&S restored and the 3 month delay to increments abolished.

evolving_doors

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Disagree away.
I've no problem with people disagreeing with me and we'll all be civil.

I coach because I really enjoy it.
It helps build relationships with students outside of the classroom which ultimately make the relationship and behavior in the classroom even better.

Don't get me wrong, I want those toxic hours gone and the money for S&S restored and the 3 month delay to increments abolished.

I don't think he was disagreeing about people actually doing EX.Cur. It was having them counted as part of CP that was the point of contention.

I think if they were to be counted then they will literally would have to be 'counted'. Then it'd be the case of some teachers pitted against other teachers over who did the most hours versus who worked the most during their hours and all that stuff that just can't be quantified (and shouldn't).

When it becomes mandatory it becomes ****.

Now that the PDE has changed to masters level I very much doubt you'll see as many teachers interested in embarking on a Masters post qualification. Previously I would suspect that people undertook it on their own volition (or with a view to promotion), now a masters is mandatory with the PME and lets face it... the level of research for a PME dissertation (10k words is it?) comes nowhere near that of a the level required as a standalone specialism masters (25k words backed up by informed practice). That's my take on it anyway, make generic mickey mouse CPD courses mandatory (and god forbid, online!!!) and you'll kill off any desire for lifelong learning for a lot of teachers.

GAA can go scratch as far as I'm concerned, it's none of their business.

ethical

.....and get rid of the Pension Levy!

ytareh

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Yup, i totally agree too. Once you write your extra curricular/CPD into CP then it becomes mandatory and impossible to untangle.

It's essentially comes down to extrinsic and intrinsic motivation (from what I gathered in my Philosophy of Ed. lectures).
Extrinsic: You do it because you want to.
Intrinsic: You do it because you have to.

Is that not reversed / the opposite?

doc_17

I don't think they will go because ultimately the government will put something on the table, most likely a threat, and it'll be voted through.

As for the notion that "if you want to do extra curricular then good for you but I'm fine not doing it thanks very much and it should have nothing to with CP hours" I think that's unfair on those that do it.

joebloggs32

doc_17 wrote: »

I don't think they will go because ultimately the government will put something on the table, most likely a threat, and it'll be voted through.

As for the notion that "if you want to do extra curricular then good for you but I'm fine not doing it thanks very much and it should have nothing to with CP hours" I think that's unfair on those that do it.

You are right, the government will put something on the table to retain them.

What I reckon they will do is make an offer to gradually close some of the gap between the new and old pay scales in return for the retention of the Croke Park hours.

This would really then put pressure on the unions who would be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

I don't think they will go because ultimately the government will put something on the table, most likely a threat, and it'll be voted through.

As for the notion that "if you want to do extra curricular then good for you but I'm fine not doing it thanks very much and it should have nothing to with CP hours" I think that's unfair on those that do it.

No doc_17, extra curricular should not be associated with the 33 hours because then you force EVERY teacher into extra curricular against their will.

It really is a case of fine if you do them and fine if you don't. Extra curricular activities always been two things; Voluntary and Extra. And it should stay that way.

The 33 hours if they stay, and god forbid that they do,should be a level playing field for EVERY teacher. Let's try to be fair and stick together in something which is inherently unfair.It's totally wrong to to take the attitude,"Shur I'm grand. I coach two basketball teams which I love anyway.Can't you go off and find yourself some sort of course!" The "I" in question might be a young single male and the "you" a mother of young kids.

evolving_doors

ytareh wrote: »

Is that not reversed / the opposite?

Yes... your're right....I just did that to see if you were paying attention.. ahem!

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

I don't think they will go because ultimately the government will put something on the table, most likely a threat, and it'll be voted through.

As for the notion that "if you want to do extra curricular then good for you but I'm fine not doing it thanks very much and it should have nothing to with CP hours" I think that's unfair on those that do it.

Was it ever 'fair' that some teachers undertook Extra Curricular and some didn't in the first place. That's a loaded question btw, go back to brass tax, you're a teacher of your subject first and foremost, this is what you get paid to do, but now suddenly the implication is that we are getting paid too much so we must be doing more with less.

Lets face it, any teacher entering into Extra Curricular for some sort of 'appreciation' or 'recognition' is on a hiding to nothing. I do it for it's own intrinsic worth and the benefits I see the pupils gain, that's all. Not because of some outside benefit I can offset against some other supposedly 'temporary' punishment.



But really, for those who say Extra Curricular should be use as a CP offset then lets explore it on this thread...

How do you quantify the extra curricular undertaken, like is it just in terms of hours?


Lets see this play out.

Teacher A: Takes the basketball team 100% (only teacher in the school doing it), mornings, evenings weekends etc.
Teacher B: Finds out they can offset their CP by putting in a few hours extra E.Curricular..

Teacher B tags along a few times with teacher A on the basketball team (can't do evenings, mornings, weekends because of other commitments). In one or two months teacher B has fulfilled the CP/EC offset and says g'luck and thanks.

Is that fair to teacher A?

Petty measurement in education is killing things as they are at the moment. It's the same proposition as payment by results.

ethical

Extra curricular I agree is voluntary and probably should remain so.I find though that it is increasingly more difficult to do both extra curricular AND CP Hours.
Of course the CP hours etc is only a box ticking exercise with the added bonus of 'retired' teachers using it as a money grabbing 'after dinner speech' circuit boring the proverbial 'h*le ' of tired teachers who have had enough and have to sit there evening after evening when the more productive work is done out on the pitch or in the basketball arena at this time of day.
Education is suffering,teaching is suffering and I suspect that parents are becoming aware of this too.

doc_17

While the Croke Park hours are around I think people should be allowed to offset their contribution to the school against them, whatever that contribution should be.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

While the Croke Park hours are around I think people should be allowed to offset their contribution to the school against them, whatever that contribution should be.

Ok lets explore it then!

What quantity of Extra Curricular would you say would be equivalent to 1 CP hour?

paddybarry

doc_17 wrote: »

While the Croke Park hours are around I think people should be allowed to offset their contribution to the school against them, whatever that contribution should be.

What about those teachers who spend many additional hours putting resources together for students such as handouts, notes, etc?

I know plenty of teachers who do this but are not involved in 'extra curricular'. Same teachers may give exams on a more regular basis than other colleagues which obviously involves a serious amount of work in the form of corrections and so on.

I find that same teachers are rewarded for the excellent performance of their students through larger classes as
A: They have excellent classroom control
B: They deliver excellent results year after year and so students are more inclined to chose this teacher's subject over others.

Yet, other colleagues who may be more involved in 'extra curricular' have much smaller classes and therefore a much reduced workload.

Where is the fairness in allowing the second group of teachers to offset CP hours against 'extra curricular', but not the first?

Inspector Coptoor

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ok lets explore it then!

What quantity of Extra Curricular would you say would be equivalent to 1 CP hour?

An hour is an hour

political analyst

doc_17 wrote: »

I don't think they will go because ultimately the government will put something on the table, most likely a threat, and it'll be voted through.

As for the notion that "if you want to do extra curricular then good for you but I'm fine not doing it thanks very much and it should have nothing to with CP hours" I think that's unfair on those that do it.

Those teachers who were "over-quota" because of the increase in class sizes have probably been absorbed by transfers, increases in pupil numbers, retirements and resignations. Therefore, there may be nothing for the Department to threaten the unions with.

political analyst

joebloggs32 wrote: »

What I reckon they will do is make an offer to gradually close some of the gap between the new and old pay scales in return for the retention of the Croke Park hours.

This would really then put pressure on the unions who would be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

When the teachers' unions recommended the Croke Park deal, they knew that it would not protect new entrants from a further pay-cut. That was like South Vietnam being hung out to dry in 1975.

doc_17

No need for anyone to be getting themselves worked up. As long as the CP hours exist I should be allowed to use any extra time I spend going above and beyond to offset them. I am entitled to hold this belief in the very same way that someone who doesn't do anything "extra" can make that choice.

evolving_doors

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

An hour is an hour

So lets just say you offset all your CP hours with EC without doing anything different. And we'll assume that all the teachers in your school (or maybe even all teachers in Ireland!) offset all their CP hours with EC.

What then is the point of having CP hours?
What extra 'productivity' have the dept. gained in terms of budgets and money.

This is why I think CP can never be 'written off' with other non-teaching/planning duties. The dept. want us ALL in meetings as they can say it is for whole-school planning/school development and thus count it as productive.

Once the dept starts to quantify individual Extra Curricular as 'productivity' then it introduces the notion quantifying each persons effort.

What of the teachers who dont partake in EC... would you suggest they be sent off on CPD courses instead. Why are they deemed as needing up-skilling in their teaching whereas others(who use EC) don't?

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

No need for anyone to be getting themselves worked up. As long as the CP hours exist I should be allowed to use any extra time I spend going above and beyond to offset them. I am entitled to hold this belief in the very same way that someone who doesn't do anything "extra" can make that choice.

The nub of the thing is 'extra time'. I'm getting worked up as I already put in 'extra time' for my normal teaching as it is. I start planning at 8pm when the kids are in bed, then corrections have to be done after school hours/ weekends. (Leaving aside CPD I'm undertaking myself!).

I don't think the dept. will allow us to use any of this 'extra time' against CP as they dont (and never will) acknowledge it anyway. So why would they allow us to use extra curricular? Is Extra Curricular worth more than the 'normal' extra time we put in for our own subjects?

amacca

Of course its unlikely to happen but if teachers worked together and showed some solidarity in the interests of the profession and each other and put a stop to all extra curricular while the CP hours are in place then perhaps this debate would be a whole lot different.

Most give much more than they have to (for many different reasons - including large class sizes, being treated as childminders rather than educators, poor disciplinary backup leading to chasing tails and engaging in CYA activities while tails continue to wag dogs never mind preparation, correcting, pandering to the school being used as a dumping ground for whatever new "initiative" turns up next week, organising debates, young scientist entries, foreign tours, multiple different sports teams, art competitions, open evenings fielding calls from sometimes deluded sometimes irate parents who have had the wool pulled over their eyes or are deliberately causing hassle for reasons of their own etc etc I'm sure I've missed out many more time eaters on top of contact hours which have become increasingly challenging due to being authority figures with little actual authority)

if they stopped and just did the CP hours and had the balls to stay the course I reckon it wouldn't be too long before the validity of picking a soft target and imposing bull**** CP hours to improve "productivity" would be reassessed.

Agree with Gebgbegb about petty measurement killing education btw - I'd call the measurement thats gone on so far shortsighted, ignorant and most of all politically expedient measurement with little or nothing to do with actual education.