Finally Tesla coming to Ireland

samih

Yeah I didn't actually claim that Leaf is faster than my old SAAB 9-5. It's all about instantly accessible torque without needing to change down and wait for (in case of my old car a largish to the engine size) turbo to spool up.

i3 apparently the the fastest ever BMW from 0 to 50. Leaf is slower but instantly on the right gear and at peak torque so real life performance is surprisingly good. Hence "I don't feel short changed" and "would be fairly difficult to" beat with my old car at slow speed. I also said that my old car "wins hand down" the leaf at over 100.

In everyday driving the performance of Leaf is totally acceptable for even people who are used to fairly powerful cars.

stesaurus

My last 3 cars were a 238bhp RX8, a 210bhp 325I and a 500 Abarth. I now have an i3 and it's the quickest and most fun of the lot.
I've grown up since my red lining RX8 days so I couldn't care less about speeds above 120kph. For me it's all about off the line take off, coming out of a bend and overtaking quickly and safely. The i3 is easily the quickest off the line and only marginally behind the RX8 for overtaking. The instant torque really is something to behold.
I hate people quoting figures like that means definitive proof. Figures are really subjective and change between reviewers. Not to mention we're mainly amateurs here and don't have a hope of matching pro drivers in a test environment. Ice times are never going to be matched by us. However an EV can be. There's no correct gear, turbo lag, magic rpm number or complicated launch control. You just put the foot to the floor and hang on.
It's ridiculous people choosing performance as something to pick on an EV for. That's their strongest point for me.

There's no point quoting HP in electrics because they deliver their power in a completely different manner.

The Leaf can get to the 164 Kph limit (clock speed) fast enough as you'd expect from an ICE car with 104 HP that weighs as much as a Honda CRV.

The difference the Leaf will feel a lot faster than an ICE of equivalent up to the speeds most people care about because of the fact the electric motor has more torque at lower speed and no interruption in power via gear changes and no lag.

The leaf is limited on take off due to being FWD to prevent wheel spin but once moving a few kms it takes off pretty hard.

steelboots

Deleted User wrote: »

There's no point quoting HP in electrics because they deliver their power in a completely different manner.

The Leaf can get to the 164 Kph limit (clock speed) fast enough as you'd expect from an ICE car with 104 HP that weighs as much as a Honda CRV.

The difference the Leaf will feel a lot faster than an ICE of equivalent up to the speeds most people care about because of the fact the electric motor has more torque at lower speed and no interruption in power via gear changes and no lag.

The leaf is limited on take off due to being FWD to prevent wheel spin but once moving a few kms it takes off pretty hard.

Having had a loan of an SV Leaf and now the owner of an SVE, I notice the SVE is slower on take off. Presumably because of the larger wheels on the SVE meaning its higher geared. On fast take off in the SV it was difficult to not get wheel spin, however on the SVE rarely have I any wheel spin.

pwurple

steelboots wrote: »

Having had a loan of an SV Leaf and now the owner of an SVE, I notice the SVE is slower on take off. Presumably because of the larger wheels on the SVE meaning its higher geared. On fast take off in the SV it was difficult to not get wheel spin, however on the SVE rarely have I any wheel spin.

Turn off "Eco mode". I get wheel spin on my SVE. A little too much to be honest, slightly morto feeling like a skanky boy racer at traffic lights.

We have an EV and a diesel in our family, and we argue over who gets to take the EV every day. It's a joy to drive.

Anyhoooo. this thread has turned into the usual tit for tat instead of staying on topic.

I'm delighted to see the tesla coming on stream here. I've had the pleasure of having a go in an imported one here in Cork, and two drives in L.A. of the tesla model S and model x. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I had the disposable income. They are absolutely beautiful pieces of engineering and design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUz_EXSmp9w

caster

pwurple wrote: »

I'm delighted to see the tesla coming on stream here. I've had the pleasure of having a go in an imported one here in Cork, and two drives in L.A. of the tesla model S and model x. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I had the disposable income. They are absolutely beautiful pieces of engineering and design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUz_EXSmp9w

I'm down for a test drive of the Model S next week out in Clontarf. It could be an expensive afternoon

griffin100

I saw a 161 Model S in sky blue on the N11 today. Thought it was a Masarati at first. Nice looking car.

Rafal

ted1 wrote: »

A PHEV is more suited to me even if I do get half price charging.

Just go ahead and buy it: you need what you need and what suits you. I think we have established over two weeks ago that a BEV is clearly not appropriate for your or Thierry's needs, so don't waste your time debating it endlessly. Go get the nicest PHEV you can get afford, and enjoy it. In the meantime BEVs will improve, maybe one day you will have one.

I am very happy about my Leaf, it is the best car I've ever had, I hope it keeps that way. A PHEV would have been a wrong choice for me. But it would be counterproductive for me to evangelise BEVs to people for whom it is not appropriate, like you. Thank goodness for diversity and choice.

The Bolt EV would be really worth waiting for and cost less than a GTE Golf. And 300 Km range at 100 kph.

I guarantee anyone who buys a plug in will wish they had a lot more EV range as they realise how much better EV driving is.

2 years isn't that long to wait, the Model 3 Tesla will also be around by then.

I just hope they start making estate EV's soon enough.

steelboots

Deleted User wrote: »

The Bolt EV would be really worth waiting for and cost less than a GTE Golf. And 300 Km range at 100 kph.

I guarantee anyone who buys a plug in will wish they had a lot more EV range as they realise how much better EV driving is.

2 years isn't that long to wait, the Model 3 Tesla will also be around by then.

I just hope they start making estate EV's soon enough.

Its the 7 seater I want, when I was first considering buying an EV my wife was going to sent for the men in white coats. Now all of a sudden I notice my car missing from the drive way at weekends.....

The Tesla Model X is an impressive piece of kit, but probably will be too expensive if/when it arrives on this island.

Scottie99

Next Tesla Battery, P100D?

http://electrek.co/2016/03/04/tesla-os-hacker-model-s-p100d/

Water John

The changing world of batteries and energy storage is very interesting.
It is a key to EV development and quick acceptance by the public.
Sorry didn't pick up the link right.
Article the The Guardian yesterday.

US agency reaches 'holy grail' of battery storage sought by Elon Musk and Gates
Breakthrough in next generation of storage batteries could transform the US electrical grid within five to 10 years, says research agency, Arpa-E

ted1

Saw a grey tesla at the n11 flyover this morning, any if you guys?

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Torque doesn't mean anything until you want to accelerate.

Torque is what moves you, HP allows you to move. Without torque you've no acceleration, without HP you've no power to accelerate.

The I3 has a lot more power than the leaf and is lighter accelerating a lot quicker and probably more mid and top end power. And quiet satisfying to drive at legal limits.

The Leaf has only 104 HP and is quiet sufficient for the limit or 94 mph and again has plenty of power for most people.

You can manipulate the available power in an Ev also to provide more mid and top end power but you'll sacrifice the low end.

Our Kia Cee'd Diesel estate has 115 HP and is definitely faster beyond 120 and it's lighter, but the Leaf can get to an indicated 164 kph relatively easy, not particularly fast as with any car with 104 HP. Over taking up to 80 kph is without doubt really fast in the Leaf and you have the power instantly.

Nothing compares to the responsiveness of the EV even the Leaf, the Cee'd Diesel feels like a tortoise by comparison, drive the two and you'll know what I'm talking about or a TDI 104 hp Golf TDI and then the Leaf or Golf EV.

A lad at work has a 200 hp Vtec and it's definitely fast, but no torque at low speeds and it's good if you like racing and driving over taking a lot driving like you shouldn't at well above legal limits.

I'd prefer the Leaf any day but that's just my preference.

Torque does not make a car quick.

It doesn't matter if your leaf has 2000nm of torque, or if has 200nm.

It's still bounded to bhp/kg

Torque is a power band in cars, that's it, good for 1 second for the lazy who are not in the right gear.

It's all about bhp/kg.

Leaf has 100 or so bhp and weights what 1500kg?

It ain't quick, nippy yeah.

A 100bhp or so petrol/diesel of the same weight will be just as quick.

A V10 F1 car from 2004 has less torque than my petrol Mazda, something pitiful like 350mm, but it has circa 900bhp and weights 550kg or so, pretty sure it can accelerate.

thierry14

samih wrote: »

Yeah I didn't actually claim that Leaf is faster than my old SAAB 9-5. It's all about instantly accessible torque without needing to change down and wait for (in case of my old car a largish to the engine size) turbo to spool up.

i3 apparently the the fastest ever BMW from 0 to 50. Leaf is slower but instantly on the right gear and at peak torque so real life performance is surprisingly good. Hence "I don't feel short changed" and "would be fairly difficult to" beat with my old car at slow speed. I also said that my old car "wins hand down" the leaf at over 100.

In everyday driving the performance of Leaf is totally acceptable for even people who are used to fairly powerful cars.

I3 is not the fastest ever bmw from 0 - 50

Not even close, any of the M3, M5 etc are much faster from 0 - 50

If you said i8

thierry14

Padraig Mor wrote: »

This is something I've come across quite frequently since owning an EV - people who DON'T own an EV telling people who DO own an EV that they know more about driving EVs than the owners! My favourite was an acquaintance of mine who insists that a traffic jam is a nightmare scenario for an EV driver and refuses to believe my first hand experience that very little battery is used in jams.

So, in this instance you have two EV owners who have previously owned powerful cars saying that, at moderate speeds, driving an EV is a reasonably comparable experience to a 200bhp+ car. Note that neither myself or samih have said a Leaf is faster or as fast as such a car, just that it is in the same ballpark. And of course someone who doesn't own an EV (and likely never owned a 200bhp+ car) just can't accept what we say based on our own personal experiences! What we have said is that we refute the notion (by bk) that an EV has less performance than an equivalent diesel which, at speeds under ~100km/h, is simply not true and pointed out that the opposite is actually the case - an EV has better performance than your average 1.6ish diesel at moderate speeds.

Nice preach ( no need for half of it )

Look I was responding to some poster saying his Leaf is close to a 250bhp turbo petrol in the speed stakes.

It ain't !

Maybe if he's accelerating in 6th at 50kmh

Oafley Jones

Horsepower is calculated from rpm x torque. You can't unpack hp them and talk about them separately from the other two. Formula one cars insane acceleration primarily used to come from their high rpm.

thierry14

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Horsepower is calculated from rpm x torque. You can't unpack hp them and talk about them separately from the other two. Formula one cars insane acceleration primarily used to come from their high rpm.

Why not?

A 200bhp 200nm torque n/a Civic 1400kg, is as quick as a 200bhp 400nm torque turbo petrol 1400kg Civic.

Is it not?

Doesn't matter that one makes bhp at high rpm and other at low rpm?

Back on to the Leaf I think Nissan missed a huge opportunity giving it such a meagre power train, they should have done a Tesla and made it 170/180bhp and made it desirable.

Water John

It all depends what market they are developing towards.
Both Tesla and Nissan seem to be converging on the famlly saloon from different start points.
All the likes of me will want is an EV that will replace a standard ICE saloon or MPV. Good acceleration for take off and overtaking, can cruise at 120kph and have range so that generally charging at night will suffice.
Very little price differential at purchase.
Aiming for mainstream market, not niche.

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

Torque does not make a car quick.

It doesn't matter if your leaf has 2000nm of torque, or if has 200nm.

It's still bounded to bhp/kg

Torque is a power band in cars, that's it, good for 1 second for the lazy who are not in the right gear.

It's all about bhp/kg.

Leaf has 100 or so bhp and weights what 1500kg?

It ain't quick, nippy yeah.

A 100bhp or so petrol/diesel of the same weight will be just as quick.

A V10 F1 car from 2004 has less torque than my petrol Mazda, something pitiful like 350mm, but it has circa 900bhp and weights 550kg or so, pretty sure it can accelerate.

The leaf is about 1300 Kg , current gen, down about 200 kg from Gen 1 but Gen 1 had more torque.

No if you have 2000 nm of torque but still only 100 hp you'd be very limited at the top end of probably 5 mph or less but it would pull a train, well not quiet but it's a lot of pulling power.

If you have xx Kw available then you need to have a balance of acceleration and speed. But you still only have 104 hp or 80 Kw to be precise.

HP/Kw doesn't tell the whole story, obviously the more power you have the more powerful the car if you just want to drive normally 100 Hp in the leaf is perfectly adequate and quiet deceiving.

The I3 would be a lot more thrilling and so would the GM Bolt with 200 HP.

thierry14

Water John wrote: »

It all depends what market they are developing towards.
Both Tesla and Nissan seem to be converging on the famlly saloon from different start points.
All the likes of me will want is an EV that will replace a standard ICE saloon or MPV. Good acceleration for take off and overtaking, can cruise at 120kph and have range so that generally charging at night will suffice.
Very little price differential at purchase.
Aiming for mainstream market, not niche.

That is true

Different markets

At the moment the Nissan Leaf appeals to the greens and frugal economy, majority of the low tax diesels and Prius owners.

Tesla on the other hand is a desirable brand stealing sales from high end manufactures, high running cost market that in all honestly don't care about running costs, they are as quick as Ferraris and advertised that way.

Nissan would do well to get into the minds of the more fun loving generation and maybe release an EV GTR with a 500bhp drive train to match.

BMW have kinda started this way with the i3 and i8

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

Why not?

A 200bhp 200nm torque n/a Civic 1400kg, is as quick as a 200bhp 400nm torque turbo petrol 1400kg Civic.

Is it not?

Doesn't matter that one makes bhp at high rpm and other at low rpm?

Back on to the Leaf I think Nissan missed a huge opportunity giving it such a meagre power train, they should have done a Tesla and made it 170/180bhp and made it desirable.

As quick at the top maybe but with 200 nm more torque it would have a lot more acceleration,

Nissan chose a power that was suitable for the battery tech at the time given the AH available they're limited for current for acceleration, however with the current Gen battery I am sure they could have an extra 50 hp no problem but Nissan aren't generally bothered about making powerful average hatches this is where you need the Bolt/Ampera-E , BMW I3 or Tesla Model 3/S.

The Leaf was intended as an average family hatch replacement and I expect Leaf II to be nothing more, fancier, more tech, longer range etc but I doubt it will have much more power.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As quick at the top maybe but with 200 nm more torque it would have a lot more acceleration,

Nissan chose a power that was suitable for the battery tech at the time given the AH available they're limited for current for acceleration, however with the current Gen battery I am sure they could have an extra 50 hp no problem but Nissan aren't generally bothered about making powerful average hatches this is where you need the Bolt/Ampera-E , BMW I3 or Tesla Model 3/S.

The Leaf was intended as an average family hatch replacement and I expect Leaf II to be nothing more, fancier, more tech, longer range etc but I doubt it will have much more power.

How would it have more acceleration?

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

How would it have more acceleration?

Because it has more torque. But if it had more HP and the same torque it would be faster but accelerate roughly the same for the same given setup. Though it's not quiet as black and white as that.

cros13

ted1 wrote: »

Saw a grey tesla at the n11 flyover this morning, any if you guys?

That's David Hurley's P90DL...

thierry14 wrote: »

Torque does not make a car quick.

Uh yeah, I'm afraid it does. (Torque x traction) / mass. Torque is literally the turning force. You cannot apply your numbers from ICE vehicles because they are not comparible. If you want to compare post your torque curve, it's not the number at the top of the curve that matters when starting off it's the torque number at IDLE. The numbers you are giving is peak torque... which from any ICE is only available over a few hundred RPM at best. The reason things like launch control exist on ICE vehicles is to move to their peak torque as quick as possible.

My i3 has almost all it's torque (depending on what's toque curve is programmed in) from 0 RPM to 14,000RPM. With a couple of software tweaks to allow full torque I can do 0-100km/h in 5.5 seconds (VBOX)... and mine is the heaviest variant of the i3. Get your mind around that, what 170bhp ICE car this side of an ariel atom can beat a Skyline R32 to 100?

If I could feed it more amperage from the battery I could just dial up the motor power output even higher.

thierry14 wrote: »

If you said i8

The last time I raced an Audi TTS I was at 140km/h before he'd even caught up... that's pretty f'ing quick. I've embarrassed a lot of Golf GTi drivers from stop lights. The last GTi driver who drove my i3 was in Joe Duffy's the next day putting down a deposit.

Here's the BMW presser at the i3 launch in the UK:

The i3 actually beats the i8 off the line. Why? Because the i8 actually has a less powerful electric motor. Why? Because the battery is too small to feed anything over 90kW.

Rafal

Racing. Yawn.

samih

thierry14 wrote: »

I3 is not the fastest ever bmw from 0 - 50

Not even close, any of the M3, M5 etc are much faster from 0 - 50

If you said i8

OK, you win. I now realise that my Leaf is reaaaallllyyyy slow and unresponsive compared to my old 9-5 and also compared to pretty much any 1.6 diesel.

Going to bring it back.

BoatMad

if we solve the electric storage issue, every sports car and performance head fanatic , will be driving electric cars. In fact Id say its will usher in legislation to restrict acceleration , not just top end speed,

Anyone , with an engineering understanding, knows that electric motors just blows the doors off the bag of 19th century bolts , then is the petrol engine

BoatMad

big piece on the tesla , on the RTE news at one

bk

Padraig Mor wrote: »

This is something I frequently hear and I don't believe it's correct - e.g. a comment on another forum to the effect of "why would you pay €25k for a Leaf, when you can get a Polo for €20k?". The simple answer is that people who make these comparisons are generally (and unknowingly) comparing apples with oranges when it comes to spec etc.

You just compared a Golf to a Nissan!!! You aren't comparing like for like either.

A more realistic comparison, is the Nissan Pulsar and Nissan Leaf, which are almost exactly the same car. There is roughly a €5k price difference, which once you add interest, is more like 6k.

Depending on your style of driving, it could take 10 to 20 years for the cheaper price of electricity to pay back the difference.

And no issues with range anxiety.

This is how normal, mainstream people see EV's. Once the leaf costs exactly the same as the Pulsar and has 22 mile range, then I'm certain the mass market will buy it in massive numbers. But until then they will remain super niche.

ted1 wrote: »

The outlander is 47. Can't imagine the golf being that close to it.
Or even a hybrid like a Prius plus is 35k which in my opinion isn't to bad

The Outlander PHEV actually starts at 42k. 47k is the high end bells and whistles model.

42k is actually extremely good for a 4x4.