Finally Tesla coming to Ireland

samih

ted1 wrote: »

It's yo flowing EV as a whole. Simple fact is people are reluctant to spend 20k+on something they don't travel more than 200k without requiring a top up that takes over 30 minutes providing you find a free charger that isn't blocked , broken or bring used.

You may have but your the exception to the rule

They don't work for everybody, but I think the families that couldn't drive one at least as a second car are the exception, not the other way around. I take you have taken an EV for a spin. How did you find the drive?

samih

bk wrote: »

But that is the problem, you are talking about the Leaf as a second car in a family and a pretty expensive one at that.

EV's won't gain mass market take up until they are good enough (price and range) to be your one and only car.

Ours is actually the only car in the family although we do have a camper van too for trips to the continent etc. But so far it has been possible to drive everywhere in Ireland just with the 24 kWh Leaf. I think we have driven the camper for two weekend trips only since getting the Leaf and that was because we actually slept in it.

I also commute on a bicycle/motorbike due to the traffic in Dublin. Would actually love to have an electric bike.

The price of second hand Leafs are seriously hitting the "2nd car" range at this stage so soon they are definitely viable for that.

Rafal

Same here, Leaf is our only car.

We have two cars but the Leaf is doing a lot more Kms !

ted1

samih wrote: »

They don't work for everybody, but I think the families that couldn't drive one at least as a second car are the exception, not the other way around. I take you have taken an EV for a spin. How did you find the drive?

I found the drive ok but very short on range. I cycle ever where so only use a car at the weekends when I'm with my wife and kids, or going on a long journey. So we are getting rid of the 2nd car, and we will just use the 7 seater

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

I found the drive ok but very short on range.

Surely you knew about the "range" before you bought it ? or were you expecting more ?

Event he EPA's 107 mile rating isn't at 120 Kph, I believe it's about 60 mph in Warmer weather with some lower speeds too.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Surely you knew about the "range" before you bought it ? or were you expecting more ?

Event he EPA's 107 mile rating isn't at 120 Kph, I believe it's about 60 mph in Warmer weather with some lower speeds too.

I didn't buy it, Whst made you think that I did? Ihave a friend with a Zoe, I test drove the leaf, I looked at the fluence but was told the battery is 40 euro a month with an 85km range. We have some Mitsubishis in the work we can take to meetings or home after work

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Hang on there now, are you trying to suggest the Leaf for instance costs more then the equivalent Diesel ?

The leaf starts at 21,500 Euro's .

The 21,500 Leaf has no where near the range or performance of the equivalent Diesel.

You know perfectly well that for the Leaf to have any decent range and performance, you need to the SV model + 30kw battery + 6kw charger, so you are looking at 28k.

About 5k more then a mid range Pulsar.

And if you want to be smart about it and say the 21.5k model is good enough. Then I'll point out that the Note starts at 17k.

Either way you are paying at least a €5k premium for a Leaf and a 10k premium for something like an i3 or Golf GTE.

The reality is you are paying a lot more up front for an EV and that along with lack of range is what is keeping EV sales down at the moment.

bk

I have to agree with ted1 above, I'm very similar to him. Walk to walk every day, so no daily commute. Mostly only use a car at the weekend and then for relatively long distance trips (Cork at least once a month, Wicklow, The Mournes, etc. every weekend), only car in the family.

At that type of range, a EV just doesn't make any sense, YET.

That will change, I'm certain of it, but we aren't there yet and they aren't ready for the mass market yet.

thierry14

bk wrote: »

The 21,500 Leaf has no where near the range or performance of the equivalent Diesel.

You know perfectly well that for the Leaf to have any decent range and performance, you need to the SV model + 30kw battery + 6kw charger, so you are looking at 28k.

About 5k more then a mid range Pulsar.

And if you want to be smart about it and say the 21.5k model is good enough. Then I'll point out that the Note starts at 17k.

Either way you are paying at least a €5k premium for a Leaf and a 10k premium for something like an i3 or Golf GTE.

The reality is you are paying a lot more up front for an EV and that along with lack of range is what is keeping EV sales down at the moment.

Agree

The 30kw leaf is in the same price bracket as the 185bhp 2.0 tdi Seat Leon FR

I know which one I would take 😉

samih

thierry14 wrote: »

Agree

The 30kw leaf is in the same price bracket as the 185bhp 2.0 tdi Seat Leon FR

I know which one I would take 😉

...luckily we don't live in Soviet Union so not everybody needs to buy a same model and make of car. There is space for both Leaf and Leon FR in the market for sure. Just pick up any vehicle that suits your needs.

Personally, I would pick up a Leaf if my driving was mainly less than a 100 km a day. If I had to regularly drive over 100 km a day I would probably choose something else. But it's great that you can freely drive whatever you like and suits your needs isn't it.

bk

samih wrote: »

Personally, I would pick up a Leaf if my driving was mainly less than a 100 km a day. If I had to regularly drive over 100 km a day I would probably choose something else. But it's great that you can freely drive whatever you like and suits your needs isn't it.

Oh, I couldn't agree more.

However the problem is that I think we would all like to see EV's go mainstream, as clearly they are a super niche at the moment.

The question is what will it take for them to go mainstream and IMO that will be 200mile+ range and price no more then a diesel.

Water John

BK, I think you are nearly right. A 200 mile range needs to be a min standard. But I think the price could be a bit higher than diesel, because people will factor in the running costs, fuel, service, road tax etc. That's what people do when they opt for diesel.
Yes, as a famer, diesel is a filthy fuel. I think it will become in some ways similar to tobacco and will be seen to have caused health problems with its particulate matter. That may be a game changer for it.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

I didn't buy it, Whst made you think that I did? Ihave a friend with a Zoe, I test drove the leaf, I looked at the fluence but was told the battery is 40 euro a month with an 85km range. We have some Mitsubishis in the work we can take to meetings or home after work

Just from your post , didn't realise you were referring to a test drive.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

BK, I think you are nearly right. A 200 mile range needs to be a min standard. But I think the price could be a bit higher than diesel, because people will factor in the running costs, fuel, service, road tax etc. That's what people do when they opt for diesel.
Yes, as a famer, diesel is a filthy fuel. I think it will become in some ways similar to tobacco and will be seen to have caused health problems with its particulate matter. That may be a game changer for it.

Referring to the highlighted text.

Quiet a significant amount of people choose the diesel based on the "Road" tax alone.

Padraig Mor

bk wrote: »

People aren't thinking about EV's because they are still too expensive * and their range too limited.

Once EV's cost the same as the same size/spec Diesel and have 200mile+ range, then people will certainly consider them. In fact I think they will be massively popular.

But until then their is simply no point in even considering them for most people. There are just too many compromises at the moment

This is something I frequently hear and I don't believe it's correct - e.g. a comment on another forum to the effect of "why would you pay €25k for a Leaf, when you can get a Polo for €20k?". The simple answer is that people who make these comparisons are generally (and unknowingly) comparing apples with oranges when it comes to spec etc. Take a Leaf SV with cold pack as the generally accepted 'best' spec for most people's needs (this is what I have) - this costs €24400 excluding delivery and metallic. The nearest equivalent Golf I can price on the VW website (Comfortline, 1.6 TDi auto, camera, climate, USB, sun glass, winter pack, sat nav (although a more basic system than the Leaf)) costs €30500 - fully 6 grand more than the Leaf. And how much would more would it cost if it did 300mpg equivalent, like the Leaf?!

The 21,500 Leaf has no where near the range or performance of the equivalent Diesel.

100% accept that the Leaf has nowhere near the range of a diesel. Performance? Wrong again. My comparison Golf above has 110bhp, exactly the same as the Leaf. However, this ignores the nature of the EV drive and its instantaneous torque - at mid range speeds, the Leaf accelerates like a much more powerful car; I had a 250bhp 3L V6 RWD car before the Leaf - the Leaf feels nearly as fast in everyday traffic. Of course, top speed is much more limited but how often do you need to do over 150km/h? Also, people need to drive a Leaf to realise just how smooth it is - it is an incredibly smooth, quiet drive - smoother and more quiet than my old Lexus, and comparable to something in the luxury car class (S Class etc).

You know perfectly well that for the Leaf to have any decent range and performance, you need to the SV model + 30kw battery + 6kw charger, so you are looking at 28k.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong. The 24kWh battery and 3.3kW charger are absolutely adequate for the vast majority of people - they just don't realise it! Sure, a bit of extra range would be nice on occasion, but the simple fact is that most people only need more than the 24kWh Leaf's range very occasionally - and chances are that those occasions would require more than the 30kWh anyway. Sure, the 6kW charger would be nice to have, but its usefulness for most owners is vastly overestimated by certain posters here. There's a reason it's a relatively rare option - most people won't benefit from it more than occasionally.

Padraig Mor

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Sure, the 6kW charger would be nice to have, but its usefulness for most owners is vastly overestimated by certain posters here. There's a reason it's a relatively rare option - most people won't benefit from it more than occasionally.

I agree with most of the stuff you said but not this !

why don't you say "vastly overestimated by Mad_Lad" ? all the other people who chose not to spend the extra money on the 6.6 kw charger do.

Sadly, its the people without the 6.6 vastly "underestimate" it's usefulness.

The 6.6 kw charger has means on many occasions I've not needed to wait at fast chargers, I get back to the car and it's got enough to get me home, that's far from useful , it can put a significant charge in the battery in 2 hrs, even 1 hr can make a big difference, But if people want to spend more time attached to DC charger then by all means do it.

And here's another thing, if you find a DC charger is down the 6.6 Kw could be the difference between getting home or sleeping the night in the car !

So even if you don't use the 6.6 kw often it's better to have it than want it, it's not a waste of money and it will add more value to the car.

I won't stop talking about the 6.6 Kw charger just because some people don't want to hear it, the information is for those perhaps choosing to buy the Leaf, they won't hear about the 6.6 kw charger from their dealer because they won't tell them about it because 99% of leafs they import only have the 3.3 kw charger to keep the list price down and if someone does happen to mention it they try convince them they don't need it for fear they will go somewhere else, they want to sell what's in stock !

samih

Padraig Mor wrote: »

100% accept that the Leaf has nowhere near the range of a diesel. Performance? Wrong again. My comparison Golf above has 110bhp, exactly the same as the Leaf. However, this ignores the nature of the EV drive and its instantaneous torque - at mid range speeds, the Leaf accelerates like a much more powerful car; I had a 250bhp 3L V6 RWD car before the Leaf - the Leaf feels nearly as fast in everyday traffic. Of course, top speed is much more limited but how often do you need to do over 150km/h? Also, people need to drive a Leaf to realise just how smooth it is - it is an incredibly smooth, quiet drive - smoother and more quiet than my old Lexus, and comparable to something in the luxury car class (S Class etc).

Agree with you there. I would (have?) been classied as a petrol head. I used to drive two 200-250 hp petrol turbos in a row before an EV and didn't feel like I was short changed when first trying the Leaf. Nissan has over 250 Nm of torque from stand still and the ratio is very close to the second gear of a petrol car. Due to the turbo lag it would have been fairly difficult to beat a leaf at rolling start from say 20->100 using my old car.

At over 100 km/h on third the turbo wins hands down as Leaf torque is limited at upper end of the rev range but Leaf is a fine overtaker anyway as it's always on the right gear without any lag.

Edit, happy that there is a traction control on Leaf as I would have otherwise smoked the fronts on several occasions.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just from your post , didn't realise you were referring to a test drive.

Does the range increase as you drive them?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Does the range increase as you drive them?

Sure, going downhill !

Should be able to get 140 kms quiet easily at 100 kph out of the 30 Kwh. On a test drive you're more likely to floor it so the range indicator will adjust the range down a "lot" based on this but level out again if you drive more normal.

It charges a good bit faster than the 24 Kwh also on the DC chargers.

Topping up when you can is a good idea rather than risk running the battery very low and this is where the 6.6 kw charger comes in.

All out range may not be so important if you can do this and with the faster charging capability of the 30 kwh.

Even a 10 min fast charge can make a big difference.

Padraig Mor

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with most of the stuff you said but not this !

why don't you say "vastly overestimated by Mad_Lad" ? all the other people who chose not to spend the extra money on the 6.6 kw charger do.

Sadly, its the people without the 6.6 vastly "underestimate" it's usefulness.
!

Perhaps I should have said that it's easy to overestimate the number of people for whom the 6kW charger is genuinely useful! I think that the 6kW charger is a good option, and vital for some people. Indeed, my beef is with Nissan really as I believe it should be standard. However I disagree with any popular narrative that it is a 'must have' - as can be seen in the post I quoted, this belief seems to be becoming widespread when in reality I don't believe it's worth an extra €900 for the majority of owners (although for those that use the public infrastructure a lot, it must be a godsend). I don't have it and, while I've occasionally thought it would be handy in a particular situation, I've never regretted not spending the €900 on it! For me, and many others I suspect, a longer charging cable would be MUCH more useful!

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sure, going downhill !

Should be able to get 140 kms quiet easily at 100 kph out of the 30 Kwh. On a test drive you're more likely to floor it so the range indicator will adjust the range down a "lot" based on this but level out again if you drive more normal.

It charges a good bit faster than the 24 Kwh also on the DC chargers.

Topping up when you can is a good idea rather than risk running the battery very low and this is where the 6.6 kw charger comes in.

All out range may not be so important if you can do this and with the faster charging capability of the 30 kwh.

Even a 10 min fast charge can make a big difference.

So your saying is that the 24Kwh isn't any good and that at beloe motorway speeds I can travel for 1 hour and 24 minutes, how long would it take before I can travel another hour and 24 minutes?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

So your saying is that the 24Kwh isn't any good and that at beloe motorway speeds I can travel for 1 hour and 24 minutes, how long would it take before I can travel another hour and 24 minutes?

About 100 kph will get you 100 kms dead of winter by which be charging, charge to 80% from 18% will take 30-40 mins if the battery is cold but usually adter a drive it will have warmed up a bit.

The 30 Kwh will charge to 80% in the same time but will give a bit more range than the 24 Kwh fully charged @ 80%.

So first 100 kms on your home charge point and another 80 odd from an 80% charge in the 24 Kwh.

Sounds like you should wait for the 300-340 km range electrics due in 2 years.

Summer should see range increase by about 20-25 kms.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

About 100 kph will get you 100 kms dead of winter by which be charging, charge to 80% from 18% will take 30-40 mins if the battery is cold but usually adter a drive it will have warmed up a bit.

The 30 Kwh will charge to 80% in the same time but will give a bit more range than the 24 Kwh fully charged @ 80%.

So first 100 kms on your home charge point and another 80 odd from an 80% charge in the 24 Kwh.

Sounds like you should wait for the 300-340 km range electrics due in 2 years.

Summer should see range increase by about 20-25 kms.

A PHEV is more suited to me even if I do get half price charging.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

A PHEV is more suited to me even if I do get half price charging.

PHEV's are very expensive, I think the Golf GTE costs over 40 K ? I must check.

You'd be a lot more addicted to the chargers in a PHEV due to the smaller battery and they usually can't be fast charged, luckily enough too because they got an engine that allows PHEV owners to continue where as the Battery only car can't.

Anyway even if you can get a PHEV now you'd be better off waiting for the Tesla model 3, it will (most likely) be cheaper than the Golf GTE. Or the Leaf II or maybe the Opel Ampera-E (AKA Chevy Bolt) Though Opel Ireland may very well decide not to import the Ampera E like they didn't import the Ampera PHEV.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

PHEV's are very expensive, I think the Golf GTE costs over 40 K ? I must check.

You'd be a lot more addicted to the chargers in a PHEV due to the smaller battery and they usually can't be fast charged, luckily enough too because they got an engine that allows PHEV owners to continue where as the Battery only car can't.

Anyway even if you can get a PHEV now you'd be better off waiting for the Tesla model 3, it will (most likely) be cheaper than the Golf GTE. Or the Leaf II or maybe the Opel Ampera-E (AKA Chevy Bolt) Though Opel Ireland may very well decide not to import the Ampera E like they didn't import the Ampera PHEV.

The outlander is 47. Can't imagine the golf being that close to it.
Or even a hybrid like a Prius plus is 35k which in my opinion isn't to bad

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

The outlander is 47. Can't imagine the golf being that close to it.
Or even a hybrid like a Prius plus is 35k which in my opinion isn't to bad

Golf costs 38 K and you don't even get heated seats.

The Prius PHEV costs 36,738 Euro's in the U.K, it's not available in Ireland and I don't know how much if any grant is available there for a PHEV and VRT would be applied in Ireland which would no doubt make the cost of the Prius higher.

38K is a lot for a golf no matter what powers it, powerful car though, I suppose in Europe you have to be ripped off to have power in a car !

thierry14

samih wrote: »

Agree with you there. I would (have?) been classied as a petrol head. I used to drive two 200-250 hp petrol turbos in a row before an EV and didn't feel like I was short changed when first trying the Leaf. Nissan has over 250 Nm of torque from stand still and the ratio is very close to the second gear of a petrol car. Due to the turbo lag it would have been fairly difficult to beat a leaf at rolling start from say 20->100 using my old car.

At over 100 km/h on third the turbo wins hands down as Leaf torque is limited at upper end of the rev range but Leaf is a fine overtaker anyway as it's always on the right gear without any lag.

Edit, happy that there is a traction control on Leaf as I would have otherwise smoked the fronts on several occasions.

So now a 110bhp Leaf is quicker than a 250bhp turbo petrol from 20kmh-100kmh because it has torque, lmao 😀

Turbo lag, you have a gearbox for that.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel5481-1388.htm

Even a much faster i3 gets humbled by a run of the mill hot hatch like a Mazda 3 MPS

Takes i3 5.4secs from 80kmh - 120kmh

Mazda does it in 3.1 secs

So so hot hatch like a Mazda would absolutely murder a leaf in a straight line at any speeds, torque don't mean ****, it's all about bhp, that's why you have gears.

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

So now a 110bhp Leaf is quicker than a 250bhp turbo petrol from 20kmh-100kmh because it has torque, lmao 😀

Turbo lag, you have a gearbox for that.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel5481-1388.htm

Even a much faster i3 gets humbled by a run of the mill hot hatch like a Mazda 3 MPS

Takes i3 5.4secs from 80kmh - 120kmh

Mazda does it in 3.1 secs

So so hot hatch like a Mazda would absolutely murder a leaf in a straight line at any speeds, torque don't mean ****, it's all about bhp, that's why you have gears.

Torque doesn't mean anything until you want to accelerate.

Torque is what moves you, HP allows you to move. Without torque you've no acceleration, without HP you've no power to accelerate.

The I3 has a lot more power than the leaf and is lighter accelerating a lot quicker and probably more mid and top end power. And quiet satisfying to drive at legal limits.

The Leaf has only 104 HP and is quiet sufficient for the limit or 94 mph and again has plenty of power for most people.

You can manipulate the available power in an Ev also to provide more mid and top end power but you'll sacrifice the low end.

Our Kia Cee'd Diesel estate has 115 HP and is definitely faster beyond 120 and it's lighter, but the Leaf can get to an indicated 164 kph relatively easy, not particularly fast as with any car with 104 HP. Over taking up to 80 kph is without doubt really fast in the Leaf and you have the power instantly.

Nothing compares to the responsiveness of the EV even the Leaf, the Cee'd Diesel feels like a tortoise by comparison, drive the two and you'll know what I'm talking about or a TDI 104 hp Golf TDI and then the Leaf or Golf EV.

A lad at work has a 200 hp Vtec and it's definitely fast, but no torque at low speeds and it's good if you like racing and driving over taking a lot driving like you shouldn't at well above legal limits.

I'd prefer the Leaf any day but that's just my preference.

Padraig Mor

thierry14 wrote: »

So now a 110bhp Leaf is quicker than a 250bhp turbo petrol from 20kmh-100kmh because it has torque, lmao 😀

Turbo lag, you have a gearbox for that.

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel5481-1388.htm

Even a much faster i3 gets humbled by a run of the mill hot hatch like a Mazda 3 MPS

Takes i3 5.4secs from 80kmh - 120kmh

Mazda does it in 3.1 secs

So so hot hatch like a Mazda would absolutely murder a leaf in a straight line at any speeds, torque don't mean ****, it's all about bhp, that's why you have gears.

This is something I've come across quite frequently since owning an EV - people who DON'T own an EV telling people who DO own an EV that they know more about driving EVs than the owners! My favourite was an acquaintance of mine who insists that a traffic jam is a nightmare scenario for an EV driver and refuses to believe my first hand experience that very little battery is used in jams.

So, in this instance you have two EV owners who have previously owned powerful cars saying that, at moderate speeds, driving an EV is a reasonably comparable experience to a 200bhp+ car. Note that neither myself or samih have said a Leaf is faster or as fast as such a car, just that it is in the same ballpark. And of course someone who doesn't own an EV (and likely never owned a 200bhp+ car) just can't accept what we say based on our own personal experiences! What we have said is that we refute the notion (by bk) that an EV has less performance than an equivalent diesel which, at speeds under ~100km/h, is simply not true and pointed out that the opposite is actually the case - an EV has better performance than your average 1.6ish diesel at moderate speeds.