Age of the universe

Safehands

100 years after they were first predicted by Albert Einstein, ripples in space time have finally been detected. Scientists have hailed this discovery as the biggest scientific breakthrough of the century.
These ripples have taken a billion years to get here.
How do Young Earth creationists feel about this discovery, given that it puts to bed, the suggestion that the Universe is only 10,000 years old?

looksee

Safehands wrote: »

100 years after they were first predicted by Albert Einstein, ripples in space time have finally been detected. Scientists have hailed this discovery as the biggest scientific breakthrough of the century.
These ripples have taken a billion years to get here.
How do Young Earth creationists feel about this discovery, given that it puts to bed, the suggestion that the Universe is only 10,000 years old?

If geology and fossils are not enough proof, barely discernible ripples in space time won't have a chance!

cardinal tetra

I believe God sent these waves to test our faith.
The mere idea that you can measure waves from outer space that were created from world holes colliding and then slowing down and speeding up time is preposterous. only god has the power to implement such things.

cardinal tetra

I believe God sent these waves to test our faith.
The mere idea that you can measure waves from outer space that were created from world holes colliding and then slowing down and speeding up time is preposterous. only god has the power to implement such things.

Safehands

looksee wrote: »

If geology and fossils are not enough proof, barely discernible ripples in space time won't have a chance!

I'm interested to see if the young Earth creationists will come up with an argument to dismiss these findings, just to justify biblical tracts. We work with evidence to discern what actually happened, this is fantastic evidence to support all the other evidence which shows us that the world is a hell of a lot older than a mere few thousand years.

jonon9

cardinal tetra wrote: »

I believe God sent these waves to test our faith.
The mere idea that you can measure waves from outer space that were created from world holes colliding and then slowing down and speeding up time is preposterous. only god has the power to implement such things.

Ahh the usual 'I have no idea answer' :rolleyes:

Safehands

cardinal tetra wrote: »

I believe God sent these waves to test our faith.
The mere idea that you can measure waves from outer space that were created from world holes colliding and then slowing down and speeding up time is preposterous. only god has the power to implement such things.

I'm sure that for people who don't even try to embrace the possibility that Einstein was correct in his predictions, all "that stuff" is preposterous. For others the Biblical stories are preposterous.
The difference is that there is no evidence to support the Biblical stories. There is an abundance of evidence that the scientists are correct.

Thelomen Toblackai

Safehands wrote: »

I'm interested to see if the young Earth creationists will come up with an argument to dismiss these findings, just to justify biblical tracts. We work with evidence to discern what actually happened, this is fantastic evidence to support all the other evidence which shows us that the world is a hell of a lot older than a mere few thousand years.

There's plenty of evidence already to support that. I'm not sure why this recent discovery is the nail in the coffin though. Surely from the perspective of a creationist it's no different than any of the rest of it.

Safehands

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

There's plenty of evidence already to support that. I'm not sure why this recent discovery is the nail in the coffin though. Surely from the perspective of a creationist it's no different than any of the rest of it.

Are they just going to dismiss the whole thing?

topmanamillion

cardinal tetra wrote: »

I believe God sent these waves to test our faith.
The mere idea that you can measure waves from outer space that were created from world holes colliding and then slowing down and speeding up time is preposterous. only god has the power to implement such things.

Couldn't be bothered to help with world hunger, war and poverty but no problem planting ripples in the universe to throw us off the scent!

Thelomen Toblackai

Safehands wrote: »

Are they just going to dismiss the whole thing?

Well considering they're still creationists/believers in the bible then nothing has changed their minds yet. What about this is different ? What about this can they not dismiss or ignore compared to the rest of it ?

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Perhaps, like the cosmological constant, the speed of light can change over time. Maybe it was significantly slower in the past. (or, I've heard that theory being put forward at least, with regards distant supernovae and the age of the universe)

malnurtured

Safehands wrote: »

100 years after they were first predicted by Albert Einstein, ripples in space time have finally been detected. Scientists have hailed this discovery as the biggest scientific breakthrough of the century.
These ripples have taken a billion years to get here.
How do Young Earth creationists feel about this discovery, given that it puts to bed, the suggestion that the Universe is only 10,000 years old?

Not a YEC, but I think the obvious nail in the coffin of that 10,000 nonsense (apart from 'faked fossils' or however they ignored geological evidence) was already there, the fact that we can see stars over 10,000 light years away is uhm... impossible... according to YECs.

Hilariously, the explanation I've heard for this is that the speed of light is not actually a constant. Which of course, means half of the physics equations ever made are out the window, and are all wrong, despite their incredible accuracy.

You've got to wonder about the cognitive dissonance required for a position like that to be consistently held in someone's mind.

malnurtured

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

Perhaps, like the cosmological constant, the speed of light can change over time. Maybe it was significantly slower in the past. (or, I've heard that theory being put forward at least, with regards distant supernovae and the age of the universe)

Wow, I literally just posted that idea as you did. This is impossible unfortunately for YECs. Many, many physics equations rely on c being constant en vacuo, and the accurate predictions obtained because of these equations verify its accuracy. It even works to independently verify the position/distance of stars from Earth, which are in areas where the speed of light would be 'different', if such a thing were possible, yet the equations still work.

Scientists use [c=(lambda)(freq.)] all the time for astrophysical distance calculations based on the doppler effect, which would have no predictive power if c was not a constant across the Universe, and hence across time.

Safehands

topmanamillion wrote: »

God couldn't be bothered to help with world hunger, war and poverty but has no problem planting ripples in the universe to throw us off the scent!

This is an incredibly sensible, logical reply which needs to be answered, with some equal logic, if possible, by some genuine person who believes the creationist story.

cardinal tetra

Safehands wrote: »

This is an incredibly sensible, logical reply which needs to be answered, with some equal logic, if possible, by some genuine person who believes the creationist story.

It is gods will.

You take without asking. Spend without thinking. You destroy every natural resource that has been God given and then you expect to be rewarded for it. The world was created for man. Man is trying to destroy it. Man is failing God. May God have mercy on our souls. Amen

jonon9

cardinal tetra wrote: »

It is gods will.

You take without asking. Spend without thinking. You destroy every natural resource that has been God given and then you expect to be rewarded for it. The world was created for man. Man is trying to destroy it. Man is failing God. May God have mercy on our souls. Amen

Have you any proof to what your saying I mean real proof and not just here say. Its easy to mask subjects with the term god. God created this, god created that its all too easy to assume that. Im in no way disrespecting peoples believes but when scientific discovery is made please dont say oh god put that there to test us because its down right ignorant.

endacl

cardinal tetra wrote: »

I believe God sent these waves to test our faith.

God's coming off as a bit insecure and needy so.

cardinal tetra

jonon9 wrote: »

Have you any proof to what your saying I mean real proof and not just here say. Its easy to mask subjects with the term god. God created this, god created that its all too easy to assume that. Im in no way disrespecting peoples believes but when scientific discovery is made please dont say oh god put that there to test us because its down right ignorant.

So is questioning someone's beliefs because you feel you are right because someone with a laser pointer in America told you that they can hear the moment a world hole collided with another. You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

But but but the big bang I hear you type ferociously into your keypad.

Explain with your lido waves what was there before the creation of the universe? Nothing? Nothing is something? Where did nothingness come from. Where did it all begin.

Your mental if you believe the earth is billions of years old. May you find peace in God.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

jonon9

cardinal tetra wrote: »

So is questioning someone's beliefs because you feel you are right because someone with a laser pointer in America told you that they can hear the moment a world hole collided with another. You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

But but but the big bang I hear you type ferociously into your keypad.

Explain with your lido waves what was there before the creation of the universe? Nothing? Nothing is something? Where did nothingness come from. Where did it all begin.

Your mental if you believe the earth is billions of years old. May you find peace in God.

Run along good sir and let the big boys talk Science and you stick to your fairytales.

endacl

cardinal tetra wrote: »

So is questioning someone's beliefs because you feel you are right because someone with a laser pointer in America told you that they can hear the moment a world hole collided with another. You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

But but but the big bang I hear you type ferociously into your keypad.

Explain with your lido waves what was there before the creation of the universe? Nothing? Nothing is something? Where did nothingness come from. Where did it all begin.

Your mental if you believe the earth is billions of years old. May you find peace in God.

If you insist on being wrong, could you at least be correct?

prinzeugen

cardinal tetra wrote: »

You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

You must be a bit of a trekie if you know the terms...

RainMakerToo

cardinal tetra wrote: »

You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

Sure the internet isn't real at all, this is all just a dream to test your faith. Go back asleep now

topmanamillion

cardinal tetra wrote: »

So is questioning someone's beliefs because you feel you are right because someone with a laser pointer in America told you that they can hear the moment a world hole collided with another. You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

But but but the big bang I hear you type ferociously into your keypad.

Explain with your lido waves what was there before the creation of the universe? Nothing? Nothing is something? Where did nothingness come from. Where did it all begin.

Your mental if you believe the earth is billions of years old. May you find peace in God.

OK your God,( sorry, where were you born? because that heavily dictates what religion/diety you follow) versus Science.
At the moment science is giving me many more answers than a 2000 year old outdated heavily edited book.
I am sure you realise Jesus was supposed to come back shortly after dying and take up his role as head of Israel along with his 12 lords (there were 12 apostles because there were 12 kingdoms/tribes in Israel).
Christianity has already been disproved by itself over 2000 years ago. Some people just haven't caught up yet.

galljga1

cardinal tetra wrote: »

So is questioning someone's beliefs because you feel you are right because someone with a laser pointer in America told you that they can hear the moment a world hole collided with another. You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

But but but the big bang I hear you type ferociously into your keypad.

Explain with your lido waves what was there before the creation of the universe? Nothing? Nothing is something? Where did nothingness come from. Where did it all begin.

Your mental if you believe the earth is billions of years old. May you find peace in God.

Me, I'm mental.

Explain what was there? Why, God of course. Where did he come from? Ah, he was always there.

Incidentally, what are world holes? Have we fallen into a game of Minecraft?

uck51js9zml2yt

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

Perhaps, like the cosmological constant, the speed of light can change over time. Maybe it was significantly slower in the past. (or, I've heard that theory being put forward at least, with regards distant supernovae and the age of the universe)

The speed of light can change and has been achieved in lab conditions.

Delirium

jonon9 wrote: »

Run along good sir and let the big boys talk Science and you stick to your fairytales.

MOD NOTE

Please note that this is the Christianity forum and as such that type of mocking post is not appropriate.

Please bear that in mind in future postings.

Thanks for you attention.

Wanderer78

Thaddeus Most Garbage wrote:

The speed of light can change and has been achieved in lab conditions.

This is still highly debated. Interesting though

MrPudding

cardinal tetra wrote: »

I believe God sent these waves to test our faith.
The mere idea that you can measure waves from outer space that were created from world holes colliding and then slowing down and speeding up time is preposterous. only god has the power to implement such things.

cardinal tetra wrote: »

It is gods will.

You take without asking. Spend without thinking. You destroy every natural resource that has been God given and then you expect to be rewarded for it. The world was created for man. Man is trying to destroy it. Man is failing God. May God have mercy on our souls. Amen

cardinal tetra wrote: »

So is questioning someone's beliefs because you feel you are right because someone with a laser pointer in America told you that they can hear the moment a world hole collided with another. You watch too much star trek with your ion capacitors and your warp drives and your science. It's all a load of prefabricated nonsense to discredit the church and the word of the lord.

But but but the big bang I hear you type ferociously into your keypad.

Explain with your lido waves what was there before the creation of the universe? Nothing? Nothing is something? Where did nothingness come from. Where did it all begin.

Your mental if you believe the earth is billions of years old. May you find peace in God.

Please tell me you are a "Poe", otherwise I would be concerned at your ability to walk and breath at the same time...

MrP

looksee

MrPudding wrote: »

Please tell me you are a "Poe", otherwise I would be concerned at your ability to walk and breath at the same time...

MrP

Apparently he cannot, he appears to have expired.

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

Couldn't be bothered to help with world hunger, war and poverty

Each being man made creations.

malnurtured

Thaddeus Most Garbage wrote: »

The speed of light can change and has been achieved in lab conditions.

Cite the peer-reviewed research that demonstrates this. If you mean that the speed of light can change based on different media (air, glass, vaccuum, etc.) then that is already well-established fact but is irrelevant to YEC theory since all of space is a vaccuum.

If you are claiming that it has been observed to change in the same medium, then present your evidence for this extraordinary claim.

Safehands

cardinal tetra wrote: »

Explain with your lido waves what was there before the creation of the universe? Nothing? Nothing is something? Where did nothingness come from. Where did it all begin.

Ever try to complete a large 1000 piece jigsaw Cardinal? I like to start at the edges or the corners and work it from there. Invariably, I end up looking for a piece with very little reference on it. It may contain a tiny piece of a branch or a leaf. I know it is there but it is really hard to find. Eventually I find it. It slots in nicely and then I move on. Scientific reseach of the cosmos is a lot like completing that really complex jigsaw. Scientists find a tiny piece of information, it slots nicely into place and then they look for the next piece. The jigsaw is growing all the time. All of the pieces fit so far.
My kids used to use wooden jigsaws with 10 or 12 pieces when they were about 4 or 5 years of age, then they progressed to more complex puzzles.
A Young Earth creationist is like a person using a piece of a 5 year old's wooden jigsaw to complete a complex 1000 piece puzzle, and insisting it fits. Any logical person can look and tell him it won't fit but he keeps insisting it will, despite all of the evidence demonstrating that his large basic piece does not fit into this complex puzzle.

drdeadlift

Never posted in this section before.

But i find it odd that this is the place to question Christianity,why not let Christians believe what they want?
Why constantly try to take apart people beliefs,post this in the atheist section.

drdeadlift

Never posted in this section before.

But i find it odd that this is the place to question Christianity,why not let Christians believe what they want?
Why constantly try to take apart people beliefs,post this in the atheist section.

topmanamillion

hinault wrote: »

Each being man made creations.

Who were supposedly made by God.. What exactly is he supposed to be doing? apart from taking credit for all the good stuff ("miracles') and blaming people/hiding behind a mysterious plan when it comes to all the bad ****.
I can live and die with out him!

Timberrrrrrrr

hinault wrote: »

Each being man made creations.

How would a drought be a man made creation?

endacl

drdeadlift wrote: »

Never posted in this section before.

But i find it odd that this is the place to question Christianity,why not let Christians believe what they want?
Why constantly try to take apart people beliefs,post this in the atheist section.

Young earth creationism is a phenomenon born of Christian sophistry. It is promoted and taught in some schools. It's proponents demand that 'what they would like us all to think' be given equal parity of esteem with 'what is known'. It is the opposite of knowledge.

An overwhelming proportion of Christians, of course, don't believe it. Some do, and should be challenged. Not because of what they believe, but because of what they promote. A forum where they hang out is a good spot to find them.

It is interesting to note that the only notable defender of the position appears to be a messer, and not to actually believe it.

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

Who were supposedly made by God.. What exactly is he supposed to be doing? apart from taking credit for all the good stuff ("miracles') and blaming people/hiding behind a mysterious plan when it comes to all the bad ****.
I can live and die with out him!

God grants man free will.

The fact that folks are starving on this planet is man's doing.

topmanamillion

hinault wrote: »

God grants man free will.

The fact that folks are starving on this planet is man's doing.

Free will they are supposed to use to follow him unquestionably and within a stringent set of rules which impinge upon everything from man's sex life to dietary intake. Free will indeed.

Gumbi

drdeadlift wrote: »

Never posted in this section before.

But i find it odd that this is the place to question Christianity,why not let Christians believe what they want?
Why constantly try to take apart people beliefs,post this in the atheist section.

That's a fairly dangerous line of thinking. Would you say the same thing to a jihadist?

I always thought the most reasonable thing would be to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible.

jobbridge4life

hinault wrote: »

Each being man made creations.

So I guess those starving babies in Africa share some of the responsibility.

endacl

hinault wrote: »

God grants man free will.

The fact that folks are starving on this planet is man's doing.

First part: no.
Second part: usually yes.

hinault

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So I guess those starving babies in Africa share some of the responsibility.

The victim carries no responsibility.

People are starving because of the actions, or inactions, of other people

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

Free will they are supposed to use to follow him unquestionably.

Not true.

St Matthew's gospel states,
"“'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"

topmanamillion

hinault wrote: »

Not true.

St Matthew's gospel states,
"“'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"

What?
How does underlining mind help your argument.
That sentence you've quoted stresses undying devotion.

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

What?
How does underlining mind help your argument.
That sentence you've quoted stresses undying devotion.

Incorrect.

topmanamillion

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

If you say so.

Cabaal

hinault wrote: »

God grants man free will.

The fact that folks are starving on this planet is man's doing.

Thats a rather simplistic view of things,
If for example go back and look at the Mayan civilization collapsed we can see there is evidence that it fell because of drought.

drought would have of course caused crop yields to fall and people to stave, but you can hardly contribute the drought to the fault of our species at that time. Instead it was down to an act of "god".

di11on

You know, it really annoys me these science vs. religion discussions. The definition of these two fields implies that there should be no overlap.

Science describes the universe and all its laws and characteristics. Religion attempts to put this all in a broader context - e.g. why is it the way it is?

Why does the religious person have to concoct their own version of science to torture the observed reality into something consistent with a view of how things should be? And why does the scientist so vociferously refuse to allow the religious person the possibility that the universe exists within a wider context?