Sticky situation with customs

canhefixit

My sis who lived her her whole life until a few months ago now lives in NI still works here always has, anyway stopped by customs due to driving NI car, customs man checks her details yes you live at so and so, you work here etc etc she says she moved back in Oct hence why she now has NI car/insurance/mot/tax, NI bank account, NI doctor, NI everything basically

So she has to provide documentation to show all the above and until then a seizure order is on the car, so seeking legal advise as customs man told her to do she sends in all the docs agreed between solicitor and customs man to be an end to it

Only customs man calls my sis this evening to say nope hes still not happy and seizure will remain, shes asks what the hell more can I show you to prove my particulars and he just hung up!

So she contacted solicitor to advise on what was said and he turns round and says your better of getting rid of the car as the man you are dealing with is a nasty piece of work and he will drag you through the courts until he gets the car of you and the judge will always favour them!!

I know getting rid of the car was not good advise as the order is still on on it regardless but do these customs people have so much power they can nearly harass you enough for you to just give and and they win?

this guy told her he was taking the car off her there and then, then changed his mind he wanted 800e on the spot, then he reached into the car grabbing letters and personal belongings to her, then let her go with the car under seizure, something dosent seem right here

have you any comeback with these fellas at all?

Like she has proved everything she can but he seems to have taken it personally now and just wants the car because he can kind of thing

ba_barabus

canhefixit wrote: »

seeking legal advise

You won't get it here.

canhefixit wrote: »

Only customs man calls my sis this evening to say nope hes still not happy and seizure will remain, shes asks what the hell more can I show you to prove my particulars and he just hung up!

He is entitled to ask for more information and confirmation. It sounds like she didn't give all she was meant to. It's worth nothing to him keeping the car. As we don't know what was actually given to him it's hard to say. What is he asking for now?

canhefixit wrote: »

So she contacted solicitor to advise on what was said and he turns round and says your better of getting rid of the car as the man you are dealing with is a nasty piece of work and he will drag you through the courts until he gets the car of you and the judge will always favour them!!

I'd get a better solicitor but in fairness Customs are easy enough to deal with if you engage with them.

canhefixit wrote: »

they can nearly harass you enough for you to just give and and they win?

If you owe them money it's not harassment and to be fair I'd hate to be on the wrong side of Customs. Also they generally just move after a tip off and after investigating the person involved. They rarely just happen to stop an innocent motorist.

canhefixit wrote: »

this guy told her he was taking the car off her there and then, then changed his mind he wanted 800e on the spot, then he reached into the car grabbing letters and personal belongings to her, then let her go with the car under seizure, something dosent seem right here

He is entitled to ask for 10% of the OMSP of the vehicle so whatever it was they reckon it had a value of €8000. As for grabbing documents, we weren't there to see. It could be documents of relevance to him, he could have been helping to unload the vehicle, he could be an arse. We don't know. Did she pay the €800? If she did that's what happened. I'd sell it asap and get a receipt to prove it. If she is working down south all her life then I *think* she is tax resident here and should be driving a southern car. My OH is from NI and there was something about that mentioned by here while I was* listening. :P

canhefixit wrote: »

have you any comeback with these fellas at all?

I'd image there is an ombudsman and an appeals procedure

canhefixit wrote: »

Like she has proved everything she can

But is it to the satisfaction of Customs and what they asked for?

Sorry for the short reply but there is a lot in your post.

Voodoomelon

There's potential here that they've been watching her vehicle for some time, perhaps well before she moved to N. Ireland. How long has she had the car?

If she has had it long before moving and they know about it, they could be like a dog with a bone.

IE, they don't want her slipping away just because she now has documents to prove she resides in the north, when she didn't originally.

canhefixit

IMO its just a powertripping customs man who just because his inquirey has lead to a dead end will just pursue this no end simply because he can, the solicitor told her they are a law upon themselves and they will drag you through the courts costing you big money were it would prob be better to replace the car and be done but sure what if shes stopped again go through the whole spreel again as i said before she works here and he knows were she works an has threatened to just call anytime and lift the car

Would sicken your hole! She is one of these people who wouldnt even drive a car a day out of tax! She went completely legit as per NI rules and still gets hounded for it, sometimes ya just cant win either way!

ba_barabus

Voodoomelon wrote: »

There's potential here that they've been watching her vehicle for some time.

I've a friend in Customs who tells me when it comes to cars they tend to only go after people who have been reported to them and who they have been watching so that they have evidence against them when they approach them.

ba_barabus

canhefixit wrote: »

IMO its just a powertripping customs man who just because his inquirey has lead to a dead end will just pursue this no end simply because he can,

Do you seriously think that?

canhefixit wrote: »

the solicitor told her they are a law upon themselves and they will drag you through the courts costing you big money were it would prob be better to replace the car and be done but sure what if shes stopped again go through the whole spreel again as i said before she works here and he knows were she works an has threatened to just call anytime and lift the car

I think the solicitor is doing you a favour......and telling you how to get out of this easily.

canhefixit wrote: »

Would sicken your hole!

So do tax evaders.

canhefixit wrote: »

She went completely legit as per NI rules and still gets hounded for it, sometimes ya just cant win either way!

Was it the Irish customs who pulled her? They won't care about NI rules.

Anyway, did she pay the 800 and get her car?

canhefixit

Voodoomelon wrote: »

There's potential here that they've been watching her vehicle for some time, perhaps well before she moved to N. Ireland. How long has she had the car?

If she has had it long before moving and they know about it, they could be like a dog with a bone.

IE, they don't want her slipping away just because she now has documents to prove she resides in the north, when she didn't originally.

S

She has the car since October from when she moved up there, it would be up and down here very regular as her kids are minded at the home place then in and out to her work so it could well be on their radar who knows

He just dosent seem to believe her and she cannot prove it anymore so i dont know how it will end up for her, i just know shes crapping it going to work and back incase shes stopped and its taken of her but shes no choice like she has to get the work

ba_barabus

canhefixit wrote: »

He just dosent seem to believe her

Well as long as she is legit and knows she it she can have confidence in being able to prove it.

canhefixit wrote: »

i just know shes crapping it going to work and back incase shes stopped and its taken of her

She doesn't sound confident there. It almost sounds like she is aware what she is doing isn't right.

It sounds like customs reckons she spends most of her time down south and that she is using an address up north to get all those other things registered. I've seen people do this unsuccessfully several times.

NIMAN

Does she spend more time South or North? Residing I mean.

canhefixit

@ ba barabus yeah i do actually think that due to past experience myself, dealing with a hot headed basically out to get you customs officer who just wont back down even if in black and white he is barking up the wrong tree completely

Why would she try to get out of it easily if she isnt in the wrong?!?!

Shes not avoiding any tax, as ive said before she wouldnt even drive a car a day out of tax never mind try to avoid vrt and customs with the amount of cross border driving she does it wouldnt make sense

yes irish customs who stopped her and no she paid nothing, he reduced the figure to 400 also but still she didnt pay as she said why would she pay any vrt when the car is not registered/owned/insured etc etc in the state

canhefixit

@ ba barabus yeah i do actually think that due to past experience myself, dealing with a hot headed basically out to get you customs officer who just wont back down even if in black and white he is barking up the wrong tree completely

Why would she try to get out of it easily if she isnt in the wrong?!?!

Shes not avoiding any tax, as ive said before she wouldnt even drive a car a day out of tax never mind try to avoid vrt and customs with the amount of cross border driving she does it wouldnt make sense

yes irish customs who stopped her and no she paid nothing, he reduced the figure to 400 also but still she didnt pay as she said why would she pay any vrt when the car is not registered/owned/insured etc etc in the state

ba_barabus

canhefixit wrote: »

yes irish customs who stopped her and no she paid nothing

Can I ask what reason he gave for releasing the car?

And purely because I'm being nosey now, what car are we talking about here? Normally they only go after something they'd make money on.

canhefixit wrote: »

dealing with a hot headed basically out to get you customs officer

The only time I've ever had to deal with someone like that I was completely in the wrong and guilty as sin. I've never known a professional to act like that without reason. But maybe I've lived a sheltered life.

canhefixit

ba_barabus wrote: »

Well as long as she is legit and knows she it she can have confidence in being able to prove it.


She doesn't sound confident there. It almost sounds like she is aware what she is doing isn't right.

It sounds like customs reckons she spends most of her time down south and that she is using an address up north to get all those other things registered. I've seen people do this unsuccessfully several times.

She has proved everything that was asked to prove residance she has nothig to hide

She is the kind of person who just doesnt want hassle from the law and never has and she would pannick out of the situation more than any thing

She lives in NI and works here, she could of just kept her old car and kept it reg at her old address and drove on not a bit of bother but she do that as its not abiding by the rules, thats the kind of person she is

homingbird

I Wonder do they go after all the traveler's on the road every day with N.I reg's as they have no fixed abode .How would they sort them out.

ba_barabus

canhefixit wrote: »

She has proved everything that was asked to prove residance she has nothig to hide

From the below it seems to be that they think she is tax resident in the south.

canhefixit wrote: »

She lives in NI and works here

Where does she pay tax?

canhefixit

ba_barabus wrote: »

Can I ask what reason he gave for releasing the car?

And purely because I'm being nosey now, what car are we talking about here? Normally they only go after something they'd make money on.


The only time I've ever had to deal with someone like that I was completely in the wrong and guilty as sin. I've never known a professional to act like that without reason. But maybe I've lived a sheltered life.

He put the car under a seizure order and told her she had so many days to present the documents to prove residance then let her go

Its an 08 Zafira 1.9 cdti with about 89k on it

ba_barabus

canhefixit wrote: »

He put the car under a seizure order and told her she had so many days to present the documents to prove residance then let her go

Its an 08 Zafira 1.9 cdti with about 89k on it

At this point what else is he looking for or what has he said as regards how this will proceed?

canhefixit

ba_barabus wrote: »

From the below it seems to be that they think she is tax resident in the south.


Where does she pay tax?

Shes a PAYE worker here and been in the same job for about 15 years, does it make any difference where you earn your money and pay your tax? surely this is a residance thing and by suppling rent book/letter from landlord, tenacy agreement/log book/bank statements/insurance cert/tax cert/mot cert/doctors letter/confirmatiion from solicitor etc still isnt enough what the hell is?

ba_barabus

canhefixit wrote: »

Shes a PAYE worker here and been in the same job for about 15 years, does it make any difference where you earn your money and pay your tax? surely this is a residance thing

It makes a huge difference.

While she may be live in the north she could be tax resident in Ireland as she works and pays taxes here . Which is what appears to be the case.

canhefixit

ba_barabus wrote: »

At this point what else is he looking for or what has he said as regards how this will proceed?

He still isnt satisifed she is telling the truth, when she asked what more does he want he keeps saying hes not satisifed and warned her that he knows were she works and can have the car lifted anytime

Thats why she got back on to solicitor and he told her that this man in particular he knows off and it sounds like he will not let this go even if the facts are put in front of him, he will take it to court and no matter what she proves she will not win against the revenue and even if she did she would be looking at massive legal costs, so a lose lose scenario

canhefixit

ba_barabus wrote: »

It makes a huge difference.

While she may be live in the north she could be tax resident in Ireland as she works and pays taxes here . Which is what appears to be the case.

Shes a PAYE employee she has no choice were she pays her tax its deducted automatically, she does her 8 hours or whatever then goes home

NIMAN

Does she sleep in NI?
Does she return to her main residence there every night?

canhefixit

NIMAN wrote: »

Does she sleep in NI?
Does she return to her main residence there every night?

Yes she lives full time in NI as and from last October that is not just her main but her only residance

bear1

This isn't making sense. How many days per year does she spend in the south?
Never mind the solicitor saying he's a nasty piece of work as the solicitor should know that's hearsay.
So she works in the south, she earns in euro and pays taxes in the south but since last October she is resident in the north.. By that definition alone customs are correct as she has spent more than 185/6 days whatever it is per year in the south which makes her resident in the south and so what she is doing isn't legal.
If she lived more time in the north and worked physically in the north then there wouldn't be an issue.
I suspect the reason to keep the car on uk plates is to pay less in motor tax/insurance.
And customs aren't impervious to the law, if he brought that to court and it was proven your sister was right then it would be struck out.

goochy

Firstly why would ur sister want to live up there with those horrible people ? Could to hear customs doing good job!

Banned from thread for being a dick

Charles Babbage

ba_barabus wrote: »

It makes a huge difference.

While she may be live in the north she could be tax resident in Ireland as she works and pays taxes here . Which is what appears to be the case.

Why do people post nonsense about tax residency when VRT issues are discussed? Every thread on the issue is polluted with irrelevant and pointless references to income tax and the like.

The OPs sister moved to the North. If this is a permanent move then she should become normally resident there, but the permanence of any move is difficult to establish in the first few months.

Did she inform Revenue (income tax) and people like children's allowance etc of her move to NI? If you are using a 26 county address with Revenue for one thing it is hard to argue to a different part of Revenue that is not your address!

ba_barabus

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Did she inform Revenue (income tax) and people like children's allowance etc of her move to NI? If you are using a 26 county address with Revenue for one thing it is hard to argue to a different part of Revenue that is not your address!

Errrr that links directly with my "nonsense". You've just agreed with it

bear1

goochy wrote: »

Firstly why would ur sister want to live up there with those horrible people ? Could to hear customs doing good job!

And secondly? I'm dying to see if the advise is as good as your first point.

bear1

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Why do people post nonsense about tax residency when VRT issues are discussed? Every thread on the issue is polluted with irrelevant and pointless references to income tax and the like.

The OPs sister moved to the North. If this is a permanent move then she should become normally resident there, but the permanence of any move is difficult to establish in the first few months.

Did she inform Revenue (income tax) and people like children's allowance etc of her move to NI? If you are using a 26 county address with Revenue for one thing it is hard to argue to a different part of Revenue that is not your address!

You're just after doing the same thing...

Charles Babbage

ba_barabus wrote: »

Errrr that links directly with my "nonsense". You've just agreed with it

I have not agreed with your nonsense. At 08:30 the road is full of people living in the North driving NI cars who pay tax in the south.
Her liability to income tax is not at issue.

Marcusm

canhefixit wrote: »

Shes a PAYE worker here and been in the same job for about 15 years, does it make any difference where you earn your money and pay your tax? surely this is a residance thing and by suppling rent book/letter from landlord, tenacy agreement/log book/bank statements/insurance cert/tax cert/mot cert/doctors letter/confirmatiion from solicitor etc still isnt enough what the hell is?

ba_barabus wrote: »

It makes a huge difference.

While she may be live in the north she could be tax resident in Ireland as she works and pays taxes here . Which is what appears to be the case.

The income tax treatment and residence for income tax is not directly relevant for VRT. VRT has specific rules about residence. You are generally treated as resident where you spend 185 days per year but this can be overridden where your personal and occupational (work) ties are in different countries. It sounds here as if the woman is in a complex category as she originated in the Republic, continues to work there and has significant personal ties there (considering her children are minded there by family members). Is she married or does she live with a partner in NI? Such personal ties would be more significant, I expect. Irrespective, if she is returning to NI each evening, I don't see that it would be established that she spends 185 days in the Republic as general convention, albeit derived from income tax, is that one only spends a day somewhere if you re there at midnight.

This sounds like a genuine case which has become more difficult as Customs are likely acting on a tip off and are predisposed not to believe her.

The law requires that

[COLOR=rgb(13.700000%, 12.200000%, 12.500000%)]Proof of normal residence may be given by means of documents relating to the acquisition of property or to employment of cessation of employment or to other transactions carried out in the course of day to day living and, in addition to or in substitution for the foregoing documents or any of them, any other documentary evidence the Commissioners require or accept. [/COLOR]




Tell her to try and pull as many of these together, and send them to Customs asking them for a statement why they are insufficient. Include in the letter a statement requesting them to confirm that, as she is engaging with them, that they suspend any seizure of the vehicle.

goochy

She seems very stubborn . I would say she's from Cavan ??? Doesn't want to spend a penny ! Lol

Mod: Do not post in this thread again.

Marcusm

goochy wrote: »

She seems very stubborn . I would say she's from Cavan ??? Doesn't want to spend a penny ! Lol

Cute Cork hoors and mean Cavan bastards; any other lazy generalisations?

bear1

What people aren't realising here is that the sister has only been in ni since October.
So.for.arguments sake she moved there on the 1/10 until the end of the calender year is 92 days she spent in ni which is below the threshold.
In 2015 her residency was in the south irrespective of anything else. So if she was driving a uk car as an Irish resident then this isn't legal.
For her to be ok being a resident abroad she'd need to show proof she is more than 185 days away from the south.

newcavanman

Does her driving license have a UK address? I think that if it doesnt then you are facing an uphill battle

bear1

bear1 wrote: »

What people aren't realising here is that the sister has only been in ni since October.
So.for.arguments sake she moved there on the 1/10 until the end of the calender year is 92 days she spent in ni which is below the threshold.
In 2015 her residency was in the south irrespective of anything else. So if she was driving a uk car as an Irish resident then this isn't legal.
For her to be ok being a resident abroad she'd need to show proof she is more than 185 days away from the south.

Her Irish insurance wont cover her at a UK address long term nor will she technically be allowed to keep an irish reg car long term if living in the UK so what is she supposed to do? Have two cars and swap at the border?

Surely this sort of rubbish from customs goes totally against free movement within the EU etc.

TheChizler

I think it goes without saying that any written correspondence with customs should probably be sent with a return address in the north.

sunnysoutheast

Marcusm wrote: »

The income tax treatment and residence for income tax is not directly relevant for VRT. VRT has specific rules about residence. You are generally treated as resident where you spend 185 days per year but this can be overridden where your personal and occupational (work) ties are in different countries. It sounds here as if the woman is in a complex category as she originated in the Republic, continues to work there and has significant personal ties there (considering her children are minded there by family members). Is she married or does she live with a partner in NI? Such personal ties would be more significant, I expect. Irrespective, if she is returning to NI each evening, I don't see that it would be established that she spends 185 days in the Republic as general convention, albeit derived from income tax, is that one only spends a day somewhere if you re there at midnight.

This sounds like a genuine case which has become more difficult as Customs are likely acting on a tip off and are predisposed not to believe her.

The law requires that

[COLOR=rgb(13.700000%, 12.200000%, 12.500000%)]Proof of normal residence may be given by means of documents relating to the acquisition of property or to employment of cessation of employment or to other transactions carried out in the course of day to day living and, in addition to or in substitution for the foregoing documents or any of them, any other documentary evidence the Commissioners require or accept. [/COLOR]




Tell her to try and pull as many of these together, and send them to Customs asking them for a statement why they are insufficient. Include in the letter a statement requesting them to confirm that, as she is engaging with them, that they suspend any seizure of the vehicle.

Not strictly relevant to the OP's situation but the "present at midnight" rule for tax residency changed some time ago. A day counts against the tests if present in Ireland at any time during it, except for edge conditions around airport transit etc.

mfceiling

Alvaro Better Vocation wrote: »

Her Irish insurance wont cover her at a UK address long term nor will she technically be allowed to keep an irish reg car long term if living in the UK so what is she supposed to do? Have two cars and swap at the border?

Surely this sort of rubbish from customs goes totally against free movement with the EU etc.

This baffles me as well. What if she's reported to the customs in the north now for driving a southern reg car in the north, and they want her to register the car to the north?

Charles Babbage

mfceiling wrote: »

This baffles me as well. What if she's reported to the customs in the north now for driving a southern reg car in the north, and they want her to register the car to the north?

They don't bother, of course, as cars are less expensive there. But in any case they would not be able to after such a short period for someone whose personal ties remain in the 26 counties.

The OPs sister would have been wise not to be in such a rush to change her car.

esforum

ba_barabus wrote: »

It makes a huge difference.

While she may be live in the north she could be tax resident in Ireland as she works and pays taxes here . Which is what appears to be the case.

doesnt the UK and republic have a double taxation agreement? Most within the eu have a double agreement so where you earn it doesnt matter.

sunnysoutheast

Alvaro Better Vocation wrote: »

Her Irish insurance wont cover her at a UK address long term nor will she technically be allowed to keep an irish reg car long term if living in the UK so what is she supposed to do? Have two cars and swap at the border?

Surely this sort of rubbish from customs goes totally against free movement with the EU etc.

I think the issue is the the car has an NI reg but the OP can only show tax residency in NI from October, although it appears that the personal ties would all be in NI.

Surely she would need to have NI insurance which covers travel to IE given the situation described? Must be hundreds of people who have that.

Charles Babbage

Charles Babbage wrote: »

They don't bother, of course, as cars are less expensive there. But in any case they would not be able to after such a short period for someone whose personal ties remain in the 26 counties.

The OPs sister would have been wise not to be in such a rush to change her car.

It may not be an issue now but say in 3 years time, the op will still be commuting to the south everyday but will be living a few years in the north. She wont be covered by Irish insurance, she cant renew it to her actual address she would need to be giving her home address etc which would void her insurance if found out. You are also not allowed to have an Irish reg car in the UK indefinitely, they will consider her resident when living there.

Travelling to Ireland daily on NI insurance wont be an issue but a car "sleeping" every night in NI with Irish insurance is an issue.

Charles Babbage

esforum wrote: »

doesnt the UK and republic have a double taxation agreement? Most within the eu have a double agreement so where you earn it doesnt matter.

More irrelevancy.

This has nothing to do with income tax.

It may not be an issue now but say in 3 years time,

I wouldn't suggest waiting 3 years, but even most of a year would establish the permanent nature of the move better and give her more time to accumulate evidence of having moved. Normal residence is not an ephemeral thing, it is a substantially permanent move and this cannot be shown in the first few months.

sunnysoutheast

Alvaro Better Vocation wrote: »

It may not be an issue now but say in 3 years time, the op will still be commuting to the south everyday but will be living a few years in the north. She wont be covered by Irish insurance, she cant renew it to her actual address she would need to be giving her home address etc which would void her insurance if found out. You are also not allowed to have an Irish reg car in the UK indefinitely, they will consider her resident when living there.

Travelling to Ireland daily on NI insurance wont be an issue but a car "sleeping" every night in NI with Irish insurance is an issue.

The car has an NI reg. , NI insurance and the OP's sister has moved to NI.

That is my reading of it anyway.

Given that I'm not sure why customs are so interested, unless there is other information which has yet to appear.

ba_barabus

esforum wrote: »

doesnt the UK and republic have a double taxation agreement?

I can't remember the exact rule but the way it was explained to me was that you pay in whichever jurisdiction charges the most (I could have that slightly mixed up but I think it's along those lines).

I don't think that in particular matters either way in this case as pointed out above.

ba_barabus

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

unless there is other information which has yet to appear.

How long have they owned the car in question and driven it on UK plates.

I still reckon Customs are acting on a tip off and have been observing the cars movements for a while.

esforum

Charles Babbage wrote: »

More irrelevancy.

This has nothing to do with income tax.

I agree so try shouting at Ba Barabus who brought it up

Voodoomelon

So the only stipulation to have a northern registered car is to have a rented or purchased property in the north and be able to prove you spend 185 days a year there? Which presumably is proved by mortgage payments or rental payments?

If income tax is irrelevant, is the above all that is required?

If so, a £50 a week bedsit could work out pretty cheap for someone saving €10,000 in VRT, €1800 motor tax and high insurance on a big car.

Kristopherus

OP, ask your sister to make a complaint to the Ombudsman. Their office will investigate all complaints against the Civil and Public Service, which includes Customs & Excise. They are independent and free.

Charles Babbage

Voodoomelon wrote: »

If so, a £50 a week bedsit could work out pretty cheap for someone saving €10,000 in VRT, €1800 motor tax and high insurance on a big car.

yes, but you would have to live in it!

And the insurance would not be much different.