Brexit Referendum Superthread

steddyeddy

Cervantes2 wrote: »

A prominent Brexiteer MP Anne Marie Morris caught using racist language...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40555639

Do the Tories ever look in the mirror and ask themselves "are we the bad guys"?

Zubeneschamali

Water John wrote: »

So now is the UK, going to say it is no longer part of the European continent but wants be a continent, all of it's own?

Famous English newspaper headline: "Fog in Channel, Continent cut off"

Thomas__

steddyeddy wrote: »

Cervantes2 wrote: »

A prominent Brexiteer MP Anne Marie Morris caught using racist language...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40555639

Do the Tories ever look in the mirror and ask themselves "are we the bad guys"?

Their mirrors are all "enchanted" telling them every time that they are "the best guys".

Mrs May has felt the need to even step down a further lower Level and exposing how desperate she is to cling on to power, realising that her "friends" in her own party are already preparing the steps for the "post-May" era of the Tories and as it looks by now, with Corbyn rebuffing her offer, she might not last as PM and leader of the CP until the end of this year.

This woman has no selfrespect and no shame at all, otherwise she´d take the consequences and resign for good and give way to a new GE. But with a character like she has, she´ll not go by herself and will be overthrown by her own fellow party members / MPs. Afterwards she´ll go down in history as the worst PM of the UK ever.

Water John

With May and Trump, and all the policies, it's like there is a mirror in the middle of the Atlantic ocean. One a bigger f***up than the other and not knowing how to get out of it.

Nate--IRL--

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Agreed the EU is stronger acting in unison but as I have pointed out unity is in reality very low within the EU at the minute, Brexit and Trumps have given a gloss of unity however so far this unity has not required any real cost.
For example would it be in Irelands interests to antagonize the united states in defense of German interests at a time when those same interests are putting one of the pillars of the Irish economy in jeopardy.

You seem to be under the impression that the EU acting in unison in this context is optional for individual member states to ignore.

Do you actually understand how the EU works?

Placing punitive tariffs on EU exports, will elicit a response from the EU as a whole. Trade is one of the core EU competencies received from member states.

Nate

LeinsterDub

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/11/european-leaders-can-go-whistle-over-eu-divorce-bill-says-boris-johnson

I honestly don't know where to start .

Boris Johnson has suggested European leaders can “go whistle” if they expect Britain to pay a divorce bill for withdrawing from the European Union.

What about pensions and legacy agreements?

Facing questions over the UK’s future after Brexit, the foreign secretary also told MPs that the government had “no plan for no deal” because of its confidence over securing a strong Brexit settlement with the bloc.

No plan for no deal seem beyond reckless .

His comments came after No 10 sources played down suggestions that Theresa May plans to walk out of Brexit talks in September to show defiance over EU demands for a divorce bill worth tens of billions of pounds.

As my teacher use to say. It's your own time your wasting

Water John

All the signs are, on the UK side, of a breakdown. It may be the only way to have a bit of reality brought into it.

Sam Russell

If the UK walk out in Sept, does that mean they would leave the EU early?

Professor Moriarty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/11/european-leaders-can-go-whistle-over-eu-divorce-bill-says-boris-johnson

I honestly don't know where to start .

What about pensions and legacy agreements?

No plan for no deal seem beyond reckless .

As my teacher use to say. It's your own time your wasting

It looks like they might be a double act with May playing good cop and Johnson playing bad cop. Has the makings of a good film. Wonder if Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels are available.

Nody

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the UK walk out in Sept, does that mean they would leave the EU early?

Only if they declare that all negotiations are over iirc. They can simply walk out and refuse to negotiate for a few months to show how strong they are and of course any future FTA etc. would probably start asking questions on resolving the issues they walked out from first before a deal is struck.

Enzokk

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the UK walk out in Sept, does that mean they would leave the EU early?

What would the walk out achieve though? It wouldn't be a surprise as it has been reported already. It will only shorten the time there is left for negotiations and will only push the UK towards a hard Brexit.

Then again what will happen to the "divorce payments" if the UK walks out of the negotiations and they limp idly past the Brexit date. We know the UK will revert to WTO rules and all hell will break lose, but what happens to the money the UK committed to? Who can the EU turn to to compel the UK to pay what they committed to pay? They will not accept a ECJ judgement.

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It looks like they might be a double act with May playing good cop and Johnson playing bad cop. Has the makings of a good film. Wonder if Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels are available.

Less of the jokes please.

Sam Russell

Enzokk wrote: »

What would the walk out achieve though? It wouldn't be a surprise as it has been reported already. It will only shorten the time there is left for negotiations and will only push the UK towards a hard Brexit.

Then again what will happen to the "divorce payments" if the UK walks out of the negotiations and they limp idly past the Brexit date. We know the UK will revert to WTO rules and all hell will break lose, but what happens to the money the UK committed to? Who can the EU turn to to compel the UK to pay what they committed to pay? They will not accept a ECJ judgement.

Trade war? No flights - no Eurotunnel - no ferries - no trade - no wine - no cheese - no BMWs or Mercs. They will cave in a week.

On the otherhand, try the old trick. Case in UK Supreme Court - it is a bit pro-EU going by previous decision.

Send back all the retired Brits on the Costa Lott. They would love that.

ambro25

Enzokk wrote: »

What would the walk out achieve though? It wouldn't be a surprise as it has been reported already. It will only shorten the time there is left for negotiations and will only push the UK towards a hard Brexit.

Then again what will happen to the "divorce payments" if the UK walks out of the negotiations and they limp idly past the Brexit date. We know the UK will revert to WTO rules and all hell will break lose, but what happens to the money the UK committed to? Who can the EU turn to to compel the UK to pay what they committed to pay? They will not accept a ECJ judgement.

The ICJ in the Hague. As long announced and yes, the ICJ would have jurisdiction, under the Vienna Convention.

If the UK doesn't engage with that procedure, and/or does not accept and comply with the ICJ judgement, they could pretty much kiss goodbye to any trading agreement of any sort with any third party country (bar perhaps North Korea :pac:): which country would waste time and resources negotiating with a country, which doesn't respect either its wilfully-consented contractual commitments, or neutral decisions by its wilfully-consented referee?

I daresay that, for all their bluster, May, Davis, Johnson, Fox <etc.> know that particular score (and check-mating down the line) full well. Well, I'll rephrase that: I'm hoping that their legal adviser took a healthy dose of cop-on after the Miller challenge and Appeal, and so that May, Davis, Johnson, Fox <etc.> do know full well.

Don't be fooled by theatrics playing to the domestic audience

Gbear

murphaph wrote: »

Unfortunately this goes way beyond nuclear power plants and even nuclear subs.

The UK needs to be under an inspected regime like Euratom to be able to import all sorts of radioactive materials such as specialist medical isotopes used in cancer treatment and in diagnostic imaging etc.

It has extremely far reaching consequences for medical and scientific applications.

Not to mention the enormous boondoggle at Hinkley Point.

They're into contruction already.

How much more cost and delays will be added on if their entire regulatory framework for the plant is flushed down the toilet?

It's something like 7% of the entire countries power output isn't it? They can't afford to muck about with it any more.

Fratton Fred

Sam Russell wrote: »

Trade war? No flights - no Eurotunnel - no ferries - no trade - no wine - no cheese - no BMWs or Mercs. They will cave in a week.

On the otherhand, try the old trick. Case in UK Supreme Court - it is a bit pro-EU going by previous decision.

Send back all the retired Brits on the Costa Lott. They would love that.

There won't be a trade war and I would guess that the Euro tunnel isn't going to disappear either.

As Ambro says, it will go to the ICJ who will assess it from a neutral position.

If the UK are seen as trying to renege on its commitments then they will be sanctioned and similarly, if the eu is seen as trying to impose a penalty it will get nowhere with its case.

The chances of it getting this far though are somewhere between negligible and non existent.

Water John

Just how will the manufacture of Airbus, continue?

Nate--IRL--

Water John wrote: »

Just how will the manufacture of Airbus, continue?

More expensively, for now.

Nate

First Up

Water John wrote:

Just how will the manufacture of Airbus, continue?

Get the wings made somewhere else.

Enzokk

wes wrote: »

Brexit legal challenger Gina Miller felt 'violated' when Viscount offered bounty to anyone who would run her over


Pretty appalling attitude from an aristocratic Brexiter, and it really goes to show that people with a lot of money can be pretty damn racist, and utterly vile. Everyone liked to point the finger at the poor, while given the craven upper classes a free pass for there hatred. The man openly offered 5000 pounds to run iver Gina Miller for daring to have a different opinion to him.

The rest of his comments shows the clear motivation of some Brexiters.

He has been found guilty of two counts and will face a custodial sentence. I do find this exchange with the magistrate interesting,

Ms Arbuthnot, in a series of exchanges with the peer, asked Philipps: "Boat jumper, how can I see that as anything other than a racial, ethnic aggravation?"

But Philipps denied the allegation that his posts were "racially aggravated" saying that describing Ms Miller as a "boat jumper" and that she should go back to the "steaming jungle" were "statements of fact not a racist comment at all".

Aristocrat guilty over 'menacing' Gina Miller Facebook post

RDM_83 again

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

You seem to be under the impression that the EU acting in unison in this context is optional for individual member states to ignore.

Do you actually understand how the EU works?

Placing punitive tariffs on EU exports, will elicit a response from the EU as a whole. Trade is one of the core EU competencies received from member states.

Nate

I understand that its the Commission thats in charge of trade, and in terms of disputes rather than consensus its decisions are made by simple majority AFAIK.
In my previous points I have listed the fact that there is a large number of countries that have legitimate reasons think negatively in terms of taking a potentially very risky position to protect German interests.

You will probably reply that the EU Commissioners are duty bound to act in the interests of the EU as a whole and not in their independent interests.
I will reply that an argument can be made that an escalated trade war with the USA over the German auto industry isn't necessarily in the wider EU's interests and the important fact in relation to what I state below is that the argument can be made not if it is right or wrong.

And most importantly that the EU commissioners actually do act in their individual nations interests.

This can be proved with hard figures and statistics not opinion or moralistic statements in the research paper below.

http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/md/awi/forschung/dp596.pdf

Here is a list of other less ironclad examples

One of the most apparent anecdotal examples of Commissioners acting in favour of their country of origin is the former German Commissioner Günter Verheugen, who managed to weaken a proposal by his colleagues to limit carbon dioxide emissions in order to protect the German car industry.[1] Similarly, the current French Commissioner, Pierre Moscovici, who is responsible for the enforcement of the new European fiscal pact, was one of the first to sign a request from the French Socialist Party for communitisation of national government debt on the European level.[2] And the current Czech Commissioner Vera Jourová emphasised that in her eyes the EU Commissioners must be impartial but she also explained: “I would like to focus on coordinating the activities of Czech people in EU institutions to promote Czech national interests – after my working hours, if you will.[3]

Capt'n Midnight

Gbear wrote: »

Not to mention the enormous boondoggle at Hinkley Point.

They're into contruction already.

How much more cost and delays will be added on if their entire regulatory framework for the plant is flushed down the toilet?

It's something like 7% of the entire countries power output isn't it? They can't afford to muck about with it any more.

Moorside has similar problems so it's more like 14% not including interconnectors to EU counties.

RDM_83 again

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Its a court report, not an opinion piece. Whilst the trial is on-going everything in a court report is going to be a factual account of what was said in court.

Yeah apologies, I don't doubt that the reporting is correct if its a court report its just the independent has got so bad recently (it was actually probably my favorite print UK media before the ownership changes or at least for middle east/world stuff it was)

BlitzKrieg

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I understand that its the Commission thats in charge of trade, and in terms of disputes rather than consensus its decisions are made by simple majority AFAIK.

Not often. In fact under the Barasso Commission they never voted on a single topic, every one was approved unanimously. http://en.euabc.com/word/954

The Commssion works under the principal of Collegiality which in layman terms means if one commissioner does something stupid, the commission as a whole takes the blame.

They can put something to a simple majority vote but it almost never happens because if it's something not everyone agrees on, not everyone is willing to stick their neck on the line for it.

Not sure how many of the current commission have gone to majority vote though.

EDIT: forgot link: https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/decision-making/decision-making-during-weekly-meetings_en

RDM_83 again

True I get that it operates under consensus most of the time, I was pointing out though that if there is a need of a vote its a simple majority not a qualified majority. By disputes i mean an intractable situation rather than the standard of consensus (caveat below)
I would presume the lack of regular votes is that as they are all well aware of the others positions so they know what will pass and fail anyway and so forgo the formal voting.

murphaph

Germany is the EU's biggest exporter to the US but other countries export significant quantities to them too!

"The five largest country suppliers of imports are: Germany ($124.1 billion), United Kingdom ($57.8 billion), France ($47.6 billion), Italy ($44.0 billion), and Ireland ($39.4 billion).“

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe/european-union

First Up

RDM_83 again wrote:

True I get that it operates under consensus most of the time, I was pointing out though that if there is a need of a vote its a simple majority not a qualified majority. By disputes i mean an intractable situation rather than the standard of consensus (caveat below) I would presume the lack of regular votes is that as they are all well aware of the others positions so they know what will pass and fail anyway and so forgo the formal voting.

There is plenty of wheeling and dealing around issues and everyone (large and small) makes their share of compromises. In fact the bigger countries make far more concessions than they get credit for.

The key point however is that when all the pieces fall into place, the EU's position will apply to all member states. The UK will trade with Latvia and Malta on the same terms it trades with Germany. That gives the smaller countries vastly more leverage than they would have if striking individual trade deals.

Ireland's greater exposure to Brexit is well understood and our concerns will therefore get added weight in formulating the EU's position.

Will we get everything we would like? Unlikely but the UK's intent to use Ireland as a hostage in the negotiations is fully expected and the EU is ready for it.

Thomas__

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the UK walk out in Sept, does that mean they would leave the EU early?

No, the date for the exit is set for March 2019 and no earlier. Without a deal, the UK will be left in a bigger mess than they´re already in today.

wes

Enzokk wrote: »

He has been found guilty of two counts and will face a custodial sentence. I do find this exchange with the magistrate interesting,


Aristocrat guilty over 'menacing' Gina Miller Facebook post

Good news. Hopefully, he is given a heavy sentence, as he did offer money to have her run over, and that needs to be taken very seriously.

Nody

wes wrote: »

Good news. Hopefully, he is given a heavy sentence, as he did offer money to have her run over, and that needs to be taken very seriously.

If he stays any time in jail I'll be surprised; 6 months suspended time for 2 years would be my guess along with donation to an antiracist organization or similar.