My lack of faith (in humanity)

The Bishop Basher

gctest50 wrote: »

I believe the only thing lower than a nun is an ISIS terrorist

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

I believe there are none lower..

I sincerely hope these are just the juvenile mutterings of a couple of angry young men who should probably wait a few more years before raiding the drinks cabinet and posting on boards while their folks are out on a Sunday night...

That aside...

These are probably the most ignorant, judgmental and prejudiced posts i've ever read on boards...

Cabaal

Swanner wrote: »

That aside...

These are probably the most ignorant, judgmental and prejudiced posts i've ever read on boards...

You don't read After Hours do you? :P

Shrap

Well. That escalated quickly...

seamus

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A perfectly reasonable thing to say, based on an almost insignificant sample size? If such a small sample size is enough to make grandiose statements about one's faith in humanity, I would say they're lacking perspective.

A natural thing to say, I suppose. If there are seven billion people in the world, and someone only has to step outside their door to see cruelty and ignorance, it seems reasonable to assume that one does not need to look far in any human community to find the same cruelty and inhumanity.

And history reflects this, you don't need to conduct a large-sample double-blind experiment in order to discuss it seriously.

Human beings, like all animals, are reasonably homogenous. While there may be subtle cultural differences from community to community, our broader behaviours are universal across the world.

Of course, the opposite is also true. One doesn't have to look very far to find acts of extreme kindness and caring, which can be extrapolated to assume the same across all human populations.

I think the problem is that we're evolutionarily programmed to assume that another human being is "probably" good and not going to cause any hurt. It's how we build communities and remain social. Thus, the impact of a "bad" act by a person is more devastating than "good" acts, because the former has broken an assumed boundary set by the individual whereas the latter has simply conformed to it.

A good way to think about it in the opposite is Stockholm syndrome. There's a role reversal in that scenario where you assume all humans you encounter are going to hurt you or do bad things to you. Thus when that happens, it hurts but it's not unexpected.
When they do something good, they break the boundary of expectation and "good" of a nice gesture begins to outweigh the "bad" of being kept a prisoner.

In everyday life, the impact of bad incidents tend to outweigh good ones (even if the incident isn't that "bad" in the grand scheme), hence, "Losing faith in humanity".

Shrap

^^^ That. Yes. What I said, only longer and better put.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Swanner wrote: »

These are probably the most ignorant, judgmental and prejudiced posts i've ever read on boards...

i think i might use that as my new sig.

Samaris

gctest50 wrote: »

and how about how many got AIDs because the filthy yoke advised them not to be using condoms ?

gctest50 wrote: »

I wouldn't care I believe the only thing lower than a nun is an ISIS terrorist

Yis are talking a certain amount of nonsense.

Sr. Miriam and her people do believe that condoms aren't the whole of the answer, and point to other countries where condoms are promoted without sufficient education behind them. Now, we're looking at a country where the very cause of HIV/AIDS wasn't understood by that many people - many people believed it to be down to witchcraft. What they did was educate people on sexual behaviors and risky behavior. We may not all agree with her proposed solution - defer sex until marriage/single life partner is presumably the biggest arguing point - but there's no denying that it -does- cut down on the risk of contracting HIV in a country endemic with the disease. And there's also no denying that Uganda's rate of new HIV infections has dropped drastically from a high of 28% to 7%, which is astonishing results in anyone's book. Probably not all of it is down to Sr. Miriam, Sr. Kay Lawler et al, but if they've had a decent punch in on it, then fair play to them.

Condoms are a good preventative measure. Not perfect, no, used correctly, they have an 80%+ success rate. Influencing sexual behaviors based on moralistic views also doesn't have a 100% success rate, which is why the World Health Organisation tends to lean towards both approaches.

"filthy yoke" and "only thing lower than a nun.." are both nonsensical bits of throwing toys out of the pram due to personal prejudice.

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Actually that's the non-sequitur right there, because the OP was lamenting the negative influence of religion on humanity, never said a word about all non-religious people (and straight away Daniel Dennett comes to mind as someone who is an inspiration for all the work he does, and of course there are many more), but the OP wasn't talking about those people.

No it's not. You straight away ran off to create an "aren't religious people great" scorecard - and we all know well what that is intended to imply, we've seen it dozens of times before here. It's irrelevant to the OP, tired, pathetic, and above all, seriously needy.

Really, why are you trying to seek validation for your beliefs here of all places?

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No it's not. You straight away ran off to create an "aren't religious people great" scorecard - and we all know well what that is intended to imply, we've seen it dozens of times before here. It's irrelevant to the OP, tired, pathetic, and above all, seriously needy.

Nope, that's not what I was doing at all. I've always been straightforward and have never tried to imply anything, so what you think you know it to imply is based on nothing more than your own prejudices. I have no interest in scorecards, I have never been critical of atheism, and I'm secure enough in my own beliefs that I don't feel any need to "compete" with atheism.

My only point was that the OP appeared to be lacking perspective in using the influence religious belief as a yardstick to measure their faith in humanity. There was clearly a lack of objectivity in their post because they appeared to view the influence of religious beliefs as a negative influence that holds humanity back from progressing. I merely chose one example to point out to tnem the OP that religious beliefs aren't always a negative influence on humanity.

Really, why are you trying to seek validation for your beliefs here of all places?

Erm... I'm not? This thread is about the influence of religion upon humanity, and how the OP has lost their faith in humanity when they see the influence religion has on humanity, from their perspective. Why would I not suggest that the OP lacks objectivity because of their biased perspective? It's less of a commentary on religion, and more of a commentary on the OP's faith in humanity.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Erm... I'm not? This thread is about the influence of religion upon humanity, and how the OP has lost their faith in humanity when they see the influence religion has on humanity, from their perspective. Why would I not suggest that the OP lacks objectivity because of their biased perspective? It's less of a commentary on religion, and more of a commentary on the OP's faith in humanity.

Again.....My post was not about the negative influence religion has had on humanity. My moan is that I can't understand how so many people believe in god and also about the negative influence of "religious nuts" and "religious stranglehold". I'd consider the influence of most of the major religions (or at least their philosophy for how to live life) that I've ever come across to have been positive on humanity. I'd consider a religion like Christianity to have been very positive and thinking about it I'd consider my own values to be largely in line with those of Christianity. But I don't buy the whole God, the devil, all the angles and saints and hot pokers up your arse for the rest of eternity.

Think of it this way, I buy into Christmas and all the fun fare that goes with it but I don't believe in Santy.

I just worry about humanity's ability to direct itself in a positive direction long term if most of the world's population hasn't the mental capacity to figure out that god doesn't exist. And no matter where you go in the world there is minorities that are constantly battling for their basic rights (or getting stoned to death in some cases) to be themselves because some religious head banger makes a total dogs left testicle out of interpreting some religious book. Also for example, in a country where there is at least 10% of the population who are convinced atheists, how many openly atheist TD's have we got in Dail Eireann? Its a dangerous thing to be open about even in a country like Ireland that could hold its own as amongst the most liberal and open countries in the world.

And for me personally, I told my mother that I was atheist when I was 20. And my family know I've no interest in religion. But I still have to listen to questions like "Are you going to mass this morning?" "Why not?" "It's a shame for you!". And then listening to other relatives going on about the power of prayer and the power of mass. My cousin once got asked on the phone by my granny "Are you possessed by the devil?" when he refused to go to mass and they rang my granny to try persuade him to go. I mean like give me a break. ****in religion is still rammed down the the necks of plenty of people in Ireland today. The whole primary school system is an indoctrination machine. Brain wash them when they are young.

Kiwi in IE

^^^

I hear you! I got a text before from a religious family member telling me to 'say a few prayers'. They know well enough that I'm an atheist, so I can't imagine who or what they think I'll be saying prayers to!

I also agree with you that the fact the majority of the adult population of the human race, cannot work out that the gods promoted by the established religions don't actually exist, is worrying.

fisgon

So a nun did some good work in Uganda? And that is proof of what exactly? That religion is a force for good in the world?

Take that very country, Uganda. It was Christians there who were campaigning recently to have homosexuality punishable by death. Not an exaggeration. Death for being gay.

And whatever about the good sister's particular attitude to condom use, which we probably don't know about, we do absolutely know for sure that the organization she is a part of has a very fundamental and absolutist ban on condom use, even in trying to stop the spread of AIDS. She is one woman, her church is made up of many millions of people, many hundreds of thousands of priests and bishops and other nuns, all charged with stopping people using contraception, even if it may save their lives.

And if we are talking about nuns..... Do we really have to go over it all again? Magdalens, mother and baby homes, stealing babies from the mothers and selling them to the US......

The relevance of Sister Miriam in trying to prove that religion is a beneficial thing for humanity is practically nil. Does she outweigh the mountains and mountains and mountains of ignorance, oppression and sheer nonsense given to the world by religions?

Not sure why we are giving it any attention at all.

fisgon

fisgon wrote: »

So a nun did some good work in Uganda? And that is proof of what exactly? That religion is a force for good in the world?

Take that very country, Uganda. It was Christians there who were campaigning recently to have homosexuality punishable by death. Not an exaggeration. Death for being gay.

And whatever about the good sister's particular attitude to condom use, which we probably don't know about, we do absolutely know for sure that the organization she is a part of has a very fundamental and absolutist ban on condom use, even in trying to stop the spread of AIDS. She is one woman, her church is made up of many millions of people, many hundreds of thousands of priests and bishops and other nuns, all charged with stopping people using contraception, even if it may save their lives.

And if we are talking about nuns..... Do we really have to go over it all again? Magdalens, mother and baby homes, stealing babies from the mothers and selling them to the US......

The relevance of Sister Miriam in trying to prove that religion is a beneficial thing for humanity is practically nil. Does she outweigh the mountains and mountains and mountains of ignorance, oppression and sheer nonsense given to the world by religions?

Not sure why we are giving it any attention at all.

That's another thing. I've obviously known a lot of Catholics in my time. Never met a mean or a bad one in fairness. But every one of them was just absolutely oblivious to the negative aspects of religion and all the suffering that Catholicism has caused in this country since it became a free state and forced its stranglehold. Unless it was another religion. Then they'd see all the negatives. Again that's all the Catholics I've ever "met", not all Catholics. And I think that's why most non atheists or agnostics tend to turn on religion a little bit. Just this blind faith to the power of the church and ignoring all the abuse and suffering it caused. I mean like with my family for example, if you brought up any of the abuse the Catholic church caused or the wrongs it is still committing then they'd just dismiss you or turn on you.

I work in the Banking industry so I have a vested interest but at least in banking circles there is a huge emphasis on all the abuse that bankers and banks committed and there really is a top to bottom reform being rammed down the throat of everyone involved in banking. Its almost turning into a religion with all the ethics courses I have to attend :-)

recedite

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Link: http://globalhealth.ie/invitation-to-the-irish-aid-annual-professor-michael-kelly-lecture-on-hiv-and-aids/

In order to help address the underlying causes of the spread of HIV, Sister Miriam founded the Youth Alive programme, which provides education around sexual behaviour, drugs, self-esteem, and constructive life choices for young people. The programme achieved great success in Uganda, and is has now been extended across 21 African Countries.

Its a bit vague on the all important condom issue.
But as sister Miriam is a nun, I would assume the default position is no.
Are we seriously being asked to believe she must be dispensing condoms unless we find evidence to the contrary?

One eyed Jack

recedite wrote: »

Its a bit vague on the all important condom issue.
But as sister Miriam is a nun, I would assume the default position is no.
Are we seriously being asked to believe she must be dispensing condoms unless we find evidence to the contrary?

Nope, it was gctest who expected me to accept his claims for which he couldn't produce any evidence. I was able to produce evidence for anything I claimed, but gctest held me to a standard (science, apparently), but when asked to produce evidence for his own claims, shìt got weird...

Kiwi in IE

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nope, it was gctest who expected me to accept his claims for which he couldn't produce any evidence. I was able to produce evidence for anything I claimed, but gctest held me to a standard (science, apparently), but when asked to produce evidence for his own claims, shìt got weird...

Any evidence for a god of any sort at all? Since we are on the subject of evidence being important in backing up one's claims!

fisgon

Deleted User wrote: »

And I think that's why most non atheists or agnostics tend to turn on religion a little bit. Just this blind faith to the power of the church and ignoring all the abuse and suffering it caused. I mean like with my family for example, if you brought up any of the abuse the Catholic church caused or the wrongs it is still committing then they'd just dismiss you or turn on you.

)

It may not be of any comfort to you, but I think you are now in the minority. By that I mean that you have a fundamentalist catholic family that are incapable of looking at the church objectively. This is not a typical situation in 2016. It may have been 30 years ago, but things have changed massively.

Maybe I am only speaking from my own narrow point of view, but I would have difficulty finding more than a handful of people I know that would be in that category and almost none in my extended family.

But the figures speak to the reality too, a minority in this country attend church regularly, a small minority voted against marriage equality. Many of the two aforementioned groups are over 60. You may just have had bad luck, but your situation is not typical, in my experience, or from the evidence. I think your despair for humanity may be influenced by a particularly religious - but untypical - family.

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

I just worry about humanity's ability to direct itself in a positive direction long term if most of the world's population hasn't the mental capacity to figure out that god doesn't exist.

Well, humanity has been around for about 200,000 years, during which time not only have most of the world's population failed to demonstrate the mental capacity to figure out that god doesn't exist, but they've managed to invent thousands of gods to suit their needs. It's fair to say that over that time humanity has demonstrably directed itself in a reasonably positive direction long term; we're still around anyway. So there's probably no great cause for worry in that regard; it looks like we can manage to survive and believe in gods at the same time.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

Its a bit vague on the all important condom issue.
But as sister Miriam is a nun, I would assume the default position is no.
Are we seriously being asked to believe she must be dispensing condoms unless we find evidence to the contrary?

I think we're just questioning the notion that she's a filthy yoke who advised people not to be using condoms.... at least I was.

One eyed Jack

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Any evidence for a god of any sort at all? Since we are on the subject of evidence being important in backing up one's claims!

I never made any claims in this thread about the existence of God though?

That's not being evasive with you or anything, it's just not something I do as I consider it disrespectful to other people who do not share my beliefs. I've never tried to tell anyone what to believe or what not to believe in, I consider it their own business.

Kiwi in IE

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I never made any claims in this thread about the existence of God though?

That's not being evasive with you or anything, it's just not something I do as I consider it disrespectful to other people who do not share my beliefs. I've never tried to tell anyone what to believe or what not to believe in, I consider it their own business.

I totally agree. And if those who are religious thought the same and acted in a way that reflects those views, there would be no need for this forum! Would be great if the vast majority of Irish schools didn't try to tell anyone what to believe and what not to believe in and viewed religion as the families own business. Would be great if the law viewed women's bodies as their own business too!

One eyed Jack

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I totally agree. And if those who are religious thought the same and acted in a way that reflects those views, there would be no need for this forum!

I don't think that people enforcing their views on other people is necessarily a trait peculiar to religion. You could substitute any ideology you like for religion and there are always people who exist will try and shove their ideology down the throats of others. That has more to do with the type of person they are, than their particular ideology. I have all the time in the world for people who are non-religious or atheist, but anti-theists? They're a pain in the hole as much as over-zealous theists tbh.

Would be great if the vast majority of Irish schools didn't try to tell anyone what to believe and what not to believe in and viewed religion as the families own business.

Bit of a cart before the horse moment there though - these schools still exist because according to the Irish Constitution at least, parents choose the type of education they want for their children, so they have every entitlement to send their children to Catholic ethos schools, and that is their own business.

Would be great if the law viewed women's bodies as their own business too!

You'll be hard pressed to find any country in the world where the State doesn't have a say in what people legally can and can't do with their own bodies tbh.

I don't want to drag the thread too far off topic, but generally I'm in agreement with you.

gctest50

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nope, it was gctest who expected me to accept his claims for which he couldn't produce any evidence. I was able to produce evidence for anything I claimed, but gctest held me to a standard (science, apparently), but when asked to produce evidence for his own claims, shìt got weird...

Where ? where did you produce proof of what i asked ?

that by inspiring faith and faith alone as you indicated in some invisible sexist racist muderous god reduces aids

because

Originally Posted by One eyed Jack

that's how AIDS has seen a significant reduction in Africa.

no other way no ? just faith ?

Originally Posted by One eyed Jack

Sister Miriam used her faith in a positive way to inspire faith in other people and that's how AIDS has seen a significant reduction in Africa.

what has happened ? all the faith run out ?

KAMPALA, UGANDA—

Uganda had the third-highest number of new HIV infections in sub-Saharan Africa last year, behind South Africa and Nigeria, reversing its reputation for successfully tackling the epidemic in the 1990s

at the end of 2013, Uganda had 140,000 new cases of HIV infections, accounting for 7% of the world’s total increase – the third largest increase in any country.1

But there has been a miscalculation: the strategy may have merely succeeded in driving certain behaviors further underground in this socially conservative country with close ties to American evangelicals.

.

Absolam

gctest50 wrote: »

at the end of 2013, Uganda had 140,000 new cases of HIV infections, accounting for 7% of the world’s total increase
– the third largest increase in any country

Hmm. So what you're saying is since Sr Miriam left Uganda in 1998 the positive effects of her actions have declined? Sounds like they should ask her to come back again and help out

looksee

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Bit of a cart before the horse moment there though - these schools still exist because according to the Irish Constitution at least, parents choose the type of education they want for their children, so they have every entitlement to send their children to Catholic ethos schools, and that is their own business.

No, thats the cart before the horse moment. The Catholic church has decided what kind of schools it wants and parents send their children to what ever is available.

One eyed Jack

looksee wrote: »

No, thats the cart before the horse moment. The Catholic church has decided what kind of schools it wants and parents send their children to what ever is available.

The Catholic Church being all those people who are members of the Catholic Church then?

If I had only chosen to send my child to what school was available, then he would be attending the local ET school. I really don't get why you are so against the idea that parents could have chosen the schools they do for their children just because you wouldn't choose a school with a religious ethos for your children.

nozzferrahhtoo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I've always been straightforward and have never tried to imply anything

Well actually yes you did. Very blatantly too. You clearly wrote "I would suggest that religion can be a positive influence in many more people's lives than it isn't -" and then followed this sentence with a copy and paste block of text related to one woman's work against AIDS.

So the implication of that move is clear. Transparently so. You wanted to imply religion had something to do with the work described in the block of text you copy and pasted. Yet nothing IN that block of text, aside from the word "Sister" was in any way relevant to her faith or religion _at all_. It simply was not mentioned.

So the implication you made, which you now seemingly deny making, has failed it would seem. It was little more than assumption.

And in fact given the number of people in the world doing such charity work, medical work, and other forms of self sacrifice it would seem to me that regardless of how many people (if any) have been moved by faith to do good works..... faith is in fact entirely superfluous to requirements at best, and in many cases positively damaging (such as those who do preach the sinful use of condoms, or are in fact only engaged in good works in order to target the poor and vulnerable for perpetuation of the person's religion.

One eyed Jack

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Well actually yes you did. Very blatantly too. You clearly wrote "I would suggest that religion can be a positive influence in many more people's lives than it isn't -" and then followed this sentence with a copy and paste block of text related to one woman's work against AIDS.

So the implication of that move is clear. Transparently so. You wanted to imply religion had something to do with the work described in the block of text you copy and pasted. Yet nothing IN that block of text, aside from the word "Sister" was in any way relevant to her faith or religion _at all_. It simply was not mentioned.

So the implication you made, which you now seemingly deny making, has failed it would seem. It was little more than assumption.

It wasn't an assumption at all, because I had been talking to the woman herself that morning, and I used her as an example of someone who had indeed stepped outside her own country and into a mess, and her faith had encouraged her to do the work she did, and through her work she inspired other people, and her program was introduced in 21 African countries because in the years her program was running in Uganda, the spread of AIDS had fallen from 29% to 9%.

And in fact given the number of people in the world doing such charity work, medical work, and other forms of self sacrifice it would seem to me that regardless of how many people (if any) have been moved by faith to do good works..... faith is in fact entirely superfluous to requirements at best, and in many cases positively damaging (such as those who do preach the sinful use of condoms, or are in fact only engaged in good works in order to target the poor and vulnerable for perpetuation of the person's religion.

According to you, and understandably so, but because not everyone thinks the same way you do, and because these people can speak for themselves, and because I've talked to these people face to face, I'll place more value in their opinion of what motivates them, than in your opinion of whether their faith is or shouldn't be a relevant motivation in their lives.

looksee

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The Catholic Church being all those people who are members of the Catholic Church then?

No!

nozzferrahhtoo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It wasn't an assumption at all, because I had been talking to the woman herself that morning

Ah right, an unverifiable anecdotal conversation. That helps. Not. Still looks like assumption to me based on the actual evidence and text you actually presented. Text which described what the woman did, but linked it in NO WAY To religion at all, despite the implication that religion was involved from the sentence that proceeded what you pasted.

But I repeat the other part of that point, that your claim not to have made implications at all is demonstrably false. The implication was clear and was there for all to read.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

According to you

No, according to what I just said. Which I am happy to repeat as many times as you choose to ignore it. Which is that given the number of people who are moved to do the exact same things without faith or religion.... faith and religion is clearly superfluous to requirements to getting those things done.

If people do X with religion and other people do X without religion, then clearly religion is superfluous to requirements for people to do X.

Which has nothing, at all, of any sort, whatsoever to "people thinking the same way I do". It has everything to do with the fact that this forum has many times seen people come in and copy and paste some name of someone who has done good works, and has been religious, and has missed the entire divide between correlation and causation. You are far from the first. You will be far from the last.