My lack of faith (in humanity)

So I've been an atheist since I was 12. I was a hard nosed devout Christian getting ready for my confirmation and I had to do some sort of mini project with a religious theme. So I just did mine on "God". Anyway, went to the large encyclopedia in the school library and started off the project by looking up "God". Anyway, the ultra catholic school I was in made a boo boo because under "God" it had the explanation that went something like "Being created by the human imagination and cast in various different guises who is used to explain our own existence and the existence of the universe we see". It was probably more professionally written of course. Anyway, it was an immediate shock to me, it was so clearly written and made so much sense that there was no going back. I was irretrievably an atheist. Anyway, since then I've come across a vast array of reasons why God is just a word and nothing else. It just seems perfectly clear to me that he doesnt exist. The same as finding out that Santy doesnt exist.

I have no reason to shove my beliefs down anyone else's throat and I would not really feel the need to defend my beliefs to a Catholic that might even challenge my lack of belief (probably a waste of effort as well).

The problem is that most people I know believe in god whole heartedly or at worst fall into the agnostic catholic category, as in they just go with the flow but dont think about it or practise it apart from necessity like funerals and christening. I find it so disheartening, especially living here in Ireland, to be immersed in a country where the belief in god is so widespread. I mean like, if a large chunk of the population believe in god then what hope is there for the country? In my mind, you would want to be fairly blind or stupid to not be able to see that God is in the same set of characters as Santy and the Easter Bunny.

Whats even more worrying for me is that there is a lot of people who are religious nuts. As in, religion consumes their life and they are fairly pre-occupied with trying to convert everyone else to believe their rubbish. I have family members who just rant on about it all the time. It would really test your patience listening to them.

And on top of that, what really makes me lose faith in humanity is seeing how these religious nuts make such an impact on our civil laws. From the rubbish about god and jesus being supplanted in our constitution, to abortion law being blinkered by religious dogma, to schooling being dominated by Catholicism, to the opposition by the religious orders to gay marriage and on and on and on and on.

And in fairness, we live in a fairly liberal country. Step outside of Ireland and you can risk walking into a complete mess if you were in some exotic country where religion has an even tighter strangle hold on peoples attitudes and civil law. Rarely is religious stranglehold a positive influence.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Step outside of Ireland and you can risk walking into a complete mess if you were in some exotic country where religion has an even tighter strangle hold on peoples attitudes and civil law. Rarely is religious stranglehold a positive influence.

Without wishing to bore you with the details of how I met her, it's understandable how you switched from faith in God to faith in humanity, and then lost faith in humanity, but you're either simply misguided, or just haven't done any proper research if you truly believe that religion as a positive influence is a rarity. Quite frankly it's a matter of perspective, and I would suggest that religion can be a positive influence in many more people's lives than it isn't -

Sister Dr. Miriam Duggan

Sister Dr. Miriam Duggan is an Irish Obstetrician, who has spent much of her life working in Africa on issues of maternal health, and HIV and AIDS prevention and care. For thirty years, Sister Miriam worked at St. Francis’ Hospital in Kampala, Uganda, and when the AIDS crisis began to unfold in the late 1980s, she helped to establish clinics and mobile home-based care programmes for those living with HIV, as well as helping the orphans left by parents who had died due to AIDS. In order to help address the underlying causes of the spread of HIV, Sister Miriam founded the Youth Alive programme, which provides education around sexual behaviour, drugs, self-esteem, and constructive life choices for young people. The programme achieved great success in Uganda, and is has now been extended across 21 African Countries. Sister Miriam is currently working with Hands of Care & Hope in Nairobi, which supports those living in poverty, and women living with HIV. In recognition of her lifetime’s work, Sister Miriam is one of the 2015 recipients of the Presidential Distinguished Service Award for the Irish Abroad.

Link: http://globalhealth.ie/invitation-to-the-irish-aid-annual-professor-michael-kelly-lecture-on-hiv-and-aids/

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Without wishing to bore you with the details of how I met her, it's understandable how you switched from faith in God to faith in humanity, and then lost faith in humanity, but you're either simply misguided, or just haven't done any proper research if you truly believe that religion as a positive influence is a rarity. Quite frankly it's a matter of perspective, and I would suggest that religion can be a positive influence in many more people's lives than it isn't -

I didn't say that religion as a positive influence is a rarity. I said "religious stranglehold".

While that Sister out in Africa might be doing some noble work, I'd question a lot of the work that Catholic missionaries are doing out there. I've heard with my own ears an Irish missionary priest ranting on about the work his mission was doing in Africa to stop the spread of aids. They were "educating" the African's to practice abstinence as a way of stopping the spread of aids and at the same time persuading them to not use condoms because that was against gods law. Abstinence would be great but I really doubt it works that well as a solution to aids and hiv. Rather I'd say it will keep Sister Duggan fairly busy for years to come. Anyway, my faith in religion and humanity died a little bit that day after hearing that missionary priest.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I didn't say that religion as a positive influence is a rarity. I said "religious stranglehold".

While that Sister out in Africa might be doing some noble work, I'd question a lot of the work that Catholic missionaries are doing out there. I've heard with my own ears an Irish missionary priest ranting on about the work his mission was doing in Africa to stop the spread of aids. They were "educating" the African's to practice abstinence as a way of stopping the spread of aids and at the same time persuading them to not use condoms because that was against gods law. Abstinence would be great but I really doubt it works that well as a solution to aids and hiv. Rather I'd say it will keep Sister Duggan fairly busy for years to come. Anyway, my faith in religion and humanity died a little bit that day after hearing that missionary priest.

There are over seven billion people in the world, and you're basing your faith in humanity on the behaviour of a mere handful?

Come on now, even if you were never atheist, you must be aware of how stupid that sounds, hence why the phrase "faith in humanity" irritates me as much as it does - it's an inherently self-centred perspective.

What have you done for humanity lately?

looksee

For once I (mostly) agree with what OEJ is saying. You are having a little rant for yourself, and a lot of it is accurate enough, but having faith in humanity doesn't really come into it. I suspect this may be a matter of semantics though.

Shrap

One eyed Jack wrote: »

hence why the phrase "faith in humanity" irritates me as much as it does - it's an inherently self-centred perspective.

Yes.....and? If I see a person mistreating a dog, I lose a little "faith in humanity". In other words, the trust I have been taught to have, or innately have (don't know, haven't thought about it), in people's inherent goodness is shaken. So it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say (seeing as faith is having trust or confidence in something).

I personally can't find a thing wrong with edumacated's posts. Agree with every word, in fact.....as I'm sure many other A&A regulars do. We despair of Ireland in the same way. OP, you're in the right place to have a good aul moan about it even if Jack here has a go at you about it. He's generally knocking about here to moan about what we think of religion

Shrap

looksee wrote: »

For once I (mostly) agree with what OEJ is saying. You are having a little rant for yourself, and a lot of it is accurate enough, but having faith in humanity doesn't really come into it. I suspect this may be a matter of semantics though.

Of course it's semantics. Who doesn't use that phrase? And a rant in the right place can be cathartic - I'm all for the OP's rant

One eyed Jack

Shrap wrote: »

Yes.....and? If I see a person mistreating a dog, I lose a little "faith in humanity". In other words, the trust I have been taught to have, or innately have (don't know, haven't thought about it), in people's inherent goodness is shaken. So it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say (seeing as faith is having trust or confidence in something).

A perfectly reasonable thing to say, based on an almost insignificant sample size? If such a small sample size is enough to make grandiose statements about one's faith in humanity, I would say they're lacking perspective.

I personally can't find a thing wrong with edumacated's posts. Agree with every word, in fact.....as I'm sure many other A&A regulars do. We despair of Ireland in the same way. OP, you're in the right place to have a good aul moan about it even if Jack here has a go at you about it. He's generally knocking about here to moan about what we think of religion

I'm not having a go at the OP, I could have left his rant stand as it was, but I chose to question it because I figured the OP had a very negative perspective of humanity if their faith in humanity was so easily shaken.

It's a very myopic world view that despairs for humanity and fails to see the positives in humanity that by far and above outweigh the negatives.

I've also never moaned about what anyone thinks of religion, I'm interested in various perspectives on all things religious, and where better to be than the place where religion is constantly questioned?

That is after all how we increase the sum of human knowledge, as opposed to all singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak.

Shrap

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A perfectly reasonable thing to say, based on an almost insignificant sample size? If such a small sample size is enough to make grandiose statements about one's faith in humanity, I would say they're lacking perspective.

Alright then, it would be more reasonable to use the words "a perfectly common thing to say", having reflected on you and Looksee's opinions!

It's a very myopic world view that despairs for humanity and fails to see the positives in humanity that by far and above outweigh the negatives.

I've also never moaned about what anyone thinks of religion, I'm interested in various perspectives on all things religious, and where better to be than the place where religion is constantly questioned?

That is after all how we increase the sum of human knowledge, as opposed to all singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak.

Fair enough. Anyhow, I stand over my near total agreement with the content of the OP's rant. I like a good rant and that was well written, bar the difficulty people are having with the phrase "losing faith in humanity"

Kiwi in IE

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There are over seven billion people in the world, and you're basing your faith in humanity on the behaviour of a mere handful?

Didn't you just do a similar thing when you used the good deeds of one Sister Miriam Duggan to illustrate that the OP's views on religion are incorrect because she belongs to one?

Absolam

Oh, I dunno. I'd be a little skeptical of just how hard nosed a devout Christian one can be at the age of twelve... notwithstanding the apparently exceptional job Christian schools did in indoctrinating us all. Particularly when the 'ultra catholic' ones leave contrarian encyclopedias lying around where people can just read them, and change their minds sort of thing.

But it's difficult to consider the full scope of human achievement, perpetrated largely by those of a religious persuasion, and decide humanity is not worthy of at least a little faith. For every evil sod that mistreats a dog, there's another who adopts a stray. Sure we've had a plethora of psychopaths and fools, but we've also had a share of saints (in the secular sense) and heroes. Personally I prefer to spend time celebrating the good I find in people rather than despairing of the bad...

gctest50

I believe all religion is a bit like looking into a septic tank on a clear winters night

- if you look in, you will see a good few shiny stars
- once you go in, after a while you won't realise anymore it stinks of s***
- if you do go in, you'll probably find hard to get out
- if you do get out, you might still smell a tiny bit for a good while
- there are better ways, but it's all a few people have to cling onto
- those that are stuck in the ways of the septic tank want you to join - natural human thing that

Hotblack Desiato

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Didn't you just do a similar thing when you used the good deeds of one Sister Miriam Duggan to illustrate that the OP's views on religion are incorrect because she belongs to one?

Exactly. Just to take nuns, there are lots of them who literally do nothing except sit on their hole and pray all day. Meanwhile there are lots of non-religious people doing good in the world. OEJ's post is a complete non-sequitur.

One eyed Jack

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Didn't you just do a similar thing when you used the good deeds of one Sister Miriam Duggan to illustrate that the OP's views on religion are incorrect because she belongs to one?

My point was more to illustrate for the OP that religion doesn't need to be seen as a stranglehold, particularly if one was attempting to be as objective as to use it as a yardstick to measure the nature of humanity. I mean, as good and all as the Sister is, she didn't achieve all this on her own -

Sister Miriam founded the Youth Alive programme, which provides education around sexual behaviour, drugs, self-esteem, and constructive life choices for young people. The programme achieved great success in Uganda, and is has now been extended across 21 African Countries.

I mean, the OP was one minute talking about how they are irritated by friends and relatives who are religious, and I can understand how they would perceive this as a negative (whatever you do OP, don't ever roll up to a Pentecostal service, you'll lose it altogether! ), but when the OP mentioned about stepping outside of Ireland, she was the first person that came to mind as someone who did step out of Ireland, 30 years ago, and look at what she has achieved!! I met her at mass this morning and she had such a positive attitude and her enthusiasm was quite literally infectious,very interesting woman, and so when I read the OP and how they appear to have lost faith in humanity, it's meeting people like Sister Miriam can restore one's faith in humanity, and encourage other people to follow in her footsteps.

I'm talking about leadership, and that's why I asked the OP what have they ever done for humanity, because it's easy to see all the problems in humanity and lose faith in humanity on that basis, but what good is that to anyone? It doesn't change anything, it doesn't solve problems, it doesn't even address them.

Sister Miriam used her faith in a positive way to inspire faith in other people, and that's how AIDS has seen a significant reduction in Africa, through her work and through the work of the many people she inspired to work with her. I tend to focus on the positives of what can be achieved by humanity through cooperation and understanding, rather than focus on the negatives of things that detract from that achievement.

That's why much as I enjoy a good rant the odd time myself, and I do, I can still maintain my perspective on the overwhelming positive aspects of humanity and religion and so on, than tar all religions or humanity with the same negative brush. I don't judge either humanity or religion on the actions of a tiny minority whilst ignoring the actions of the vast majority.

Curiously enough - cruel people often don't feel they need a reason to justify their actions, but religion just happens to be as good an excuse as any. I wouldn't let that colour my view of either humanity or religion however, as I really couldn't claim then to be objective.

gctest50

One eyed Jack wrote: »

.............
Sister Miriam used her faith in a positive way to inspire faith in other people, and that's how AIDS has seen a significant reduction in Africa.........,

any proof of that ?

science like ?

.

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Exactly. Just to take nuns, there are lots of them who literally do nothing except sit on their hole and pray all day. Meanwhile there are lots of non-religious people doing good in the world. OEJ's post is a complete non-sequitur.

Actually that's the non-sequitur right there, because the OP was lamenting the negative influence of religion on humanity, never said a word about all non-religious people (and straight away Daniel Dennett comes to mind as someone who is an inspiration for all the work he does, and of course there are many more), but the OP wasn't talking about those people.

Unless of course you're going to point out that the OP themselves is non-religious, which is why I asked them directly what have they ever done for humanity (that they feel they are in any position to judge humanity, because y'know, if you haven't actually done anything, then you're hardly in any position to cast judgement on those who are at least trying to better humanity!).

Absolam

gctest50 wrote: »

any proof of that ? science like ?.

Probably something in the ballpark of "In order to help address the underlying causes of the spread of HIV, Sister Miriam founded the Youth Alive programme, which provides education around sexual behaviour, drugs, self-esteem, and constructive life choices for young people. The programme achieved great success in Uganda, and is has now been extended across 21 African Countries."
If the programme actually did achieve great success in addressing the underlying causes of the spread of HIV, it's probably not unreasonable to say it's at least a factor in the reduction of AIDS in Africa?

gctest50

Absolam wrote: »

Probably something in the ballpark of "In order to help address the underlying causes of the spread of HIV, Sister Miriam founded the Youth Alive programme, which provides education around sexual behaviour, drugs, self-esteem, and constructive life choices for young people. The programme achieved great success in Uganda, and is has now been extended across 21 African Countries."
If the programme actually did achieve great success in addressing the underlying causes of the spread of HIV, it's probably not unreasonable to say it's at least a factor in the reduction of AIDS in Africa?

and how about how many got AIDs because the filthy yoke advised them not to be using condoms ?

for that she is as bad as that other serpent Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu


that's why you need the bit of science instead of probably this and that

Absolam

Filthy yoke sounds a tad on the prejudicial side... any 'bits of science' to back up that particular piece of character assassination?

Or are we simply engaging in a bit of baseless denigration? Since that article doesn't mention that the nun advised anyone not to be using condoms (and let's be clear; promoting abstinence and fidelity aren't the same as advising people not to use condoms) I suspect you're just playing to prejudice for the sake of it......

One eyed Jack

gctest50 wrote: »

any proof of that ?

science like ?

.

Any proof of what exactly?

That AIDS has seen a significant reduction in Africa due to the work inspired by Sister Miriam who founded an organisation that is now running a program in 21 countries in Africa?

Or is it that you want statistics that show a positive trend in combatting AIDS in Africa?

The proof is in the fact that the programs she started have been introduced in other African countries as they have been shown to work in reducing the spread of AIDS.

I could go off and drag up all sorts of reports and all the rest of it, but to be frank, I'm skeptical that you would have any genuine interest in whether or not the programs are effective or not, and just how significant their contribution has been to addressing the AIDS epidemic in Africa.

One eyed Jack

gctest50 wrote: »

and how about how many got AIDs because the filthy yoke advised them not to be using condoms ?

for that she is as bad as that other serpent Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu


that's why you need the bit of science instead of probably this and that

Given that she is an obstetrician with a medical background, have you any evidence for that particular claim that she personally advised against the use of condoms in preventing the spread of AIDS?

That's where she has science, and you quite frankly, have no evidence whatsoever for your claims.

Sister Miriam Duggan, from Limerick, a Franciscan Missionary of the Sisters for Africa, was awarded for her dedication to people with AIDS/HIV and commitment in fighting the pandemic in Africa. She graduated in medicine at the University College in Cork, the missionary specialized in obstetrics and gynecology in Birmingham in 1969, and continued to work for 30 years in Uganda as chief medical officer of St Francis' Hospital, Nsambya, in Kampala.

In 1987 she launched the Youth Alive program of prevention with the aim of addressing the main causes of the spread of HIV and help young people to take responsible choices to avoid contracting AIDS. The number of infections in Uganda has decreased, thanks to this program, which was promoted in 21 other African countries.

The prevalence rate of AIDS in Uganda in 2002 saw a decline from 28.9% to 9.8%. In 2006 Sister Miriam was honored by Harvard University and Holy Cross College of the the United States, and in 2008 received a prize for her work by the President and Parliament of Uganda.

Link: http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=19409

gctest50

It's not rocket science

a) stop having sex with the HIV infected
b) use protection

otherwise it's liek saying if we burnt all the cars and other road transport in the country, there would be no road-accidents

gctest50

One eyed Jack wrote: »

have you any evidence for that particular claim that she personally advised against the use of condoms ....

wouldn't be promoting the use of them now would she, being a nun & all ?

Father Ted: Except when it comes to taking precautions in the bedroom.
Pat Mustard: Ah, w-... you certainly wouldn't be advising the use of artificial contraception now, Father, would you?
Father Ted: Yes, I... well... if you're going to be... of course you will... JUST FECK OFF!

gctest50

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Given that she is an obstetrician with a medical background..............

she might be really good and if she is an obstetrician i would be fairly sure she has a great medical background

you'd never can tell though


Fine machine :



slightly suss relative:

One eyed Jack

gctest50 wrote: »

It's not rocket science

a) stop having sex with the HIV infected
b) use protection

otherwise it's liek saying if we burnt all the cars and other road transport in the country, there would be no road-accidents

gctest50 wrote: »

wouldn't be promoting the use of them now would she, being a nun & all ?

Father Ted: Except when it comes to taking precautions in the bedroom.
Pat Mustard: Ah, w-... you certainly wouldn't be advising the use of artificial contraception now, Father, would you?
Father Ted: Yes, I... well... if you're going to be... of course you will... JUST FECK OFF!

So the sum total of your "evidence" for your claims is a big fat 'zero' then. Instead of presenting poor analogies and begging the question fallacies, you could just have admitted you have no basis for your claims other than your own prejudices.

If anything, your posts are evidence that it isn't religion that keeps a stranglehold on humanity, it's people's own ignorance fuelled by ill-informed prejudices about other people, that keeps a stranglehold on humanity.

Absolam

gctest50 wrote: »

It's not rocket science
a) stop having sex with the HIV infected
b) use protection
otherwise it's liek saying if we burnt all the cars and other road transport in the country, there would be no road-accidents

Ah... so because you think what she did wasn't rocket science, that makes it inconsequential? Hardly seems a justification for calling her a 'filthy yoke' all the same...

gctest50 wrote: »

wouldn't be promoting the use of them now would she, being a nun & all ?

Not promoting them isn't quite the same as advising people not to be using them though, is it? I rather doubt you spend much time promoting the use of vaccines, but I suspect you'd bridle at being accused of advising people not to use them. Luckily she's a nun, so I suppose there's a good chance she'll forgive your unkind characterisation.

gctest50

Absolam wrote: »

Ah... so because you think what she did wasn't rocket science, ...........

i must remember to make it a bit clearer n stuff

gctest50 wrote: »

It's not rocket science.......

It's not rocket science to understand


now there ya go

Absolam

gctest50 wrote: »

i must remember to make it a bit clearer n stuff
It's not rocket science to understand
now there ya go

I see. So that fact you understand how the spread of AIDS might be reduced in Africa makes her a 'filthy yoke'.

gctest50

Absolam wrote: »

.............. Luckily she's a nun, so I suppose there's a good chance she'll forgive ...

I wouldn't care

I believe the only thing lower than a nun is an ISIS terrorist

Absolam

gctest50 wrote: »

I wouldn't care I believe the only thing lower than a nun is an ISIS terrorist

There you go then... 'science like proof' of how many lives Sister Miriam has saved isn't even relevant!

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

gctest50 wrote: »

I wouldn't care

I believe the only thing lower than a nun is an ISIS terrorist

I believe there are none lower..

The Bishop Basher

gctest50 wrote: »

I believe the only thing lower than a nun is an ISIS terrorist

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

I believe there are none lower..

I sincerely hope these are just the juvenile mutterings of a couple of angry young men who should probably wait a few more years before raiding the drinks cabinet and posting on boards while their folks are out on a Sunday night...

That aside...

These are probably the most ignorant, judgmental and prejudiced posts i've ever read on boards...

Cabaal

Swanner wrote: »

That aside...

These are probably the most ignorant, judgmental and prejudiced posts i've ever read on boards...

You don't read After Hours do you? :P

Shrap

Well. That escalated quickly...

seamus

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A perfectly reasonable thing to say, based on an almost insignificant sample size? If such a small sample size is enough to make grandiose statements about one's faith in humanity, I would say they're lacking perspective.

A natural thing to say, I suppose. If there are seven billion people in the world, and someone only has to step outside their door to see cruelty and ignorance, it seems reasonable to assume that one does not need to look far in any human community to find the same cruelty and inhumanity.

And history reflects this, you don't need to conduct a large-sample double-blind experiment in order to discuss it seriously.

Human beings, like all animals, are reasonably homogenous. While there may be subtle cultural differences from community to community, our broader behaviours are universal across the world.

Of course, the opposite is also true. One doesn't have to look very far to find acts of extreme kindness and caring, which can be extrapolated to assume the same across all human populations.

I think the problem is that we're evolutionarily programmed to assume that another human being is "probably" good and not going to cause any hurt. It's how we build communities and remain social. Thus, the impact of a "bad" act by a person is more devastating than "good" acts, because the former has broken an assumed boundary set by the individual whereas the latter has simply conformed to it.

A good way to think about it in the opposite is Stockholm syndrome. There's a role reversal in that scenario where you assume all humans you encounter are going to hurt you or do bad things to you. Thus when that happens, it hurts but it's not unexpected.
When they do something good, they break the boundary of expectation and "good" of a nice gesture begins to outweigh the "bad" of being kept a prisoner.

In everyday life, the impact of bad incidents tend to outweigh good ones (even if the incident isn't that "bad" in the grand scheme), hence, "Losing faith in humanity".

Shrap

^^^ That. Yes. What I said, only longer and better put.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Swanner wrote: »

These are probably the most ignorant, judgmental and prejudiced posts i've ever read on boards...

i think i might use that as my new sig.

Samaris

gctest50 wrote: »

and how about how many got AIDs because the filthy yoke advised them not to be using condoms ?

gctest50 wrote: »

I wouldn't care I believe the only thing lower than a nun is an ISIS terrorist

Yis are talking a certain amount of nonsense.

Sr. Miriam and her people do believe that condoms aren't the whole of the answer, and point to other countries where condoms are promoted without sufficient education behind them. Now, we're looking at a country where the very cause of HIV/AIDS wasn't understood by that many people - many people believed it to be down to witchcraft. What they did was educate people on sexual behaviors and risky behavior. We may not all agree with her proposed solution - defer sex until marriage/single life partner is presumably the biggest arguing point - but there's no denying that it -does- cut down on the risk of contracting HIV in a country endemic with the disease. And there's also no denying that Uganda's rate of new HIV infections has dropped drastically from a high of 28% to 7%, which is astonishing results in anyone's book. Probably not all of it is down to Sr. Miriam, Sr. Kay Lawler et al, but if they've had a decent punch in on it, then fair play to them.

Condoms are a good preventative measure. Not perfect, no, used correctly, they have an 80%+ success rate. Influencing sexual behaviors based on moralistic views also doesn't have a 100% success rate, which is why the World Health Organisation tends to lean towards both approaches.

"filthy yoke" and "only thing lower than a nun.." are both nonsensical bits of throwing toys out of the pram due to personal prejudice.

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Actually that's the non-sequitur right there, because the OP was lamenting the negative influence of religion on humanity, never said a word about all non-religious people (and straight away Daniel Dennett comes to mind as someone who is an inspiration for all the work he does, and of course there are many more), but the OP wasn't talking about those people.

No it's not. You straight away ran off to create an "aren't religious people great" scorecard - and we all know well what that is intended to imply, we've seen it dozens of times before here. It's irrelevant to the OP, tired, pathetic, and above all, seriously needy.

Really, why are you trying to seek validation for your beliefs here of all places?

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No it's not. You straight away ran off to create an "aren't religious people great" scorecard - and we all know well what that is intended to imply, we've seen it dozens of times before here. It's irrelevant to the OP, tired, pathetic, and above all, seriously needy.

Nope, that's not what I was doing at all. I've always been straightforward and have never tried to imply anything, so what you think you know it to imply is based on nothing more than your own prejudices. I have no interest in scorecards, I have never been critical of atheism, and I'm secure enough in my own beliefs that I don't feel any need to "compete" with atheism.

My only point was that the OP appeared to be lacking perspective in using the influence religious belief as a yardstick to measure their faith in humanity. There was clearly a lack of objectivity in their post because they appeared to view the influence of religious beliefs as a negative influence that holds humanity back from progressing. I merely chose one example to point out to tnem the OP that religious beliefs aren't always a negative influence on humanity.

Really, why are you trying to seek validation for your beliefs here of all places?

Erm... I'm not? This thread is about the influence of religion upon humanity, and how the OP has lost their faith in humanity when they see the influence religion has on humanity, from their perspective. Why would I not suggest that the OP lacks objectivity because of their biased perspective? It's less of a commentary on religion, and more of a commentary on the OP's faith in humanity.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Erm... I'm not? This thread is about the influence of religion upon humanity, and how the OP has lost their faith in humanity when they see the influence religion has on humanity, from their perspective. Why would I not suggest that the OP lacks objectivity because of their biased perspective? It's less of a commentary on religion, and more of a commentary on the OP's faith in humanity.

Again.....My post was not about the negative influence religion has had on humanity. My moan is that I can't understand how so many people believe in god and also about the negative influence of "religious nuts" and "religious stranglehold". I'd consider the influence of most of the major religions (or at least their philosophy for how to live life) that I've ever come across to have been positive on humanity. I'd consider a religion like Christianity to have been very positive and thinking about it I'd consider my own values to be largely in line with those of Christianity. But I don't buy the whole God, the devil, all the angles and saints and hot pokers up your arse for the rest of eternity.

Think of it this way, I buy into Christmas and all the fun fare that goes with it but I don't believe in Santy.

I just worry about humanity's ability to direct itself in a positive direction long term if most of the world's population hasn't the mental capacity to figure out that god doesn't exist. And no matter where you go in the world there is minorities that are constantly battling for their basic rights (or getting stoned to death in some cases) to be themselves because some religious head banger makes a total dogs left testicle out of interpreting some religious book. Also for example, in a country where there is at least 10% of the population who are convinced atheists, how many openly atheist TD's have we got in Dail Eireann? Its a dangerous thing to be open about even in a country like Ireland that could hold its own as amongst the most liberal and open countries in the world.

And for me personally, I told my mother that I was atheist when I was 20. And my family know I've no interest in religion. But I still have to listen to questions like "Are you going to mass this morning?" "Why not?" "It's a shame for you!". And then listening to other relatives going on about the power of prayer and the power of mass. My cousin once got asked on the phone by my granny "Are you possessed by the devil?" when he refused to go to mass and they rang my granny to try persuade him to go. I mean like give me a break. ****in religion is still rammed down the the necks of plenty of people in Ireland today. The whole primary school system is an indoctrination machine. Brain wash them when they are young.

Kiwi in IE

^^^

I hear you! I got a text before from a religious family member telling me to 'say a few prayers'. They know well enough that I'm an atheist, so I can't imagine who or what they think I'll be saying prayers to!

I also agree with you that the fact the majority of the adult population of the human race, cannot work out that the gods promoted by the established religions don't actually exist, is worrying.

fisgon

So a nun did some good work in Uganda? And that is proof of what exactly? That religion is a force for good in the world?

Take that very country, Uganda. It was Christians there who were campaigning recently to have homosexuality punishable by death. Not an exaggeration. Death for being gay.

And whatever about the good sister's particular attitude to condom use, which we probably don't know about, we do absolutely know for sure that the organization she is a part of has a very fundamental and absolutist ban on condom use, even in trying to stop the spread of AIDS. She is one woman, her church is made up of many millions of people, many hundreds of thousands of priests and bishops and other nuns, all charged with stopping people using contraception, even if it may save their lives.

And if we are talking about nuns..... Do we really have to go over it all again? Magdalens, mother and baby homes, stealing babies from the mothers and selling them to the US......

The relevance of Sister Miriam in trying to prove that religion is a beneficial thing for humanity is practically nil. Does she outweigh the mountains and mountains and mountains of ignorance, oppression and sheer nonsense given to the world by religions?

Not sure why we are giving it any attention at all.

fisgon

fisgon wrote: »

So a nun did some good work in Uganda? And that is proof of what exactly? That religion is a force for good in the world?

Take that very country, Uganda. It was Christians there who were campaigning recently to have homosexuality punishable by death. Not an exaggeration. Death for being gay.

And whatever about the good sister's particular attitude to condom use, which we probably don't know about, we do absolutely know for sure that the organization she is a part of has a very fundamental and absolutist ban on condom use, even in trying to stop the spread of AIDS. She is one woman, her church is made up of many millions of people, many hundreds of thousands of priests and bishops and other nuns, all charged with stopping people using contraception, even if it may save their lives.

And if we are talking about nuns..... Do we really have to go over it all again? Magdalens, mother and baby homes, stealing babies from the mothers and selling them to the US......

The relevance of Sister Miriam in trying to prove that religion is a beneficial thing for humanity is practically nil. Does she outweigh the mountains and mountains and mountains of ignorance, oppression and sheer nonsense given to the world by religions?

Not sure why we are giving it any attention at all.

That's another thing. I've obviously known a lot of Catholics in my time. Never met a mean or a bad one in fairness. But every one of them was just absolutely oblivious to the negative aspects of religion and all the suffering that Catholicism has caused in this country since it became a free state and forced its stranglehold. Unless it was another religion. Then they'd see all the negatives. Again that's all the Catholics I've ever "met", not all Catholics. And I think that's why most non atheists or agnostics tend to turn on religion a little bit. Just this blind faith to the power of the church and ignoring all the abuse and suffering it caused. I mean like with my family for example, if you brought up any of the abuse the Catholic church caused or the wrongs it is still committing then they'd just dismiss you or turn on you.

I work in the Banking industry so I have a vested interest but at least in banking circles there is a huge emphasis on all the abuse that bankers and banks committed and there really is a top to bottom reform being rammed down the throat of everyone involved in banking. Its almost turning into a religion with all the ethics courses I have to attend :-)

recedite

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Link: http://globalhealth.ie/invitation-to-the-irish-aid-annual-professor-michael-kelly-lecture-on-hiv-and-aids/

In order to help address the underlying causes of the spread of HIV, Sister Miriam founded the Youth Alive programme, which provides education around sexual behaviour, drugs, self-esteem, and constructive life choices for young people. The programme achieved great success in Uganda, and is has now been extended across 21 African Countries.

Its a bit vague on the all important condom issue.
But as sister Miriam is a nun, I would assume the default position is no.
Are we seriously being asked to believe she must be dispensing condoms unless we find evidence to the contrary?

One eyed Jack

recedite wrote: »

Its a bit vague on the all important condom issue.
But as sister Miriam is a nun, I would assume the default position is no.
Are we seriously being asked to believe she must be dispensing condoms unless we find evidence to the contrary?

Nope, it was gctest who expected me to accept his claims for which he couldn't produce any evidence. I was able to produce evidence for anything I claimed, but gctest held me to a standard (science, apparently), but when asked to produce evidence for his own claims, shìt got weird...

Kiwi in IE

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nope, it was gctest who expected me to accept his claims for which he couldn't produce any evidence. I was able to produce evidence for anything I claimed, but gctest held me to a standard (science, apparently), but when asked to produce evidence for his own claims, shìt got weird...

Any evidence for a god of any sort at all? Since we are on the subject of evidence being important in backing up one's claims!

fisgon

Deleted User wrote: »

And I think that's why most non atheists or agnostics tend to turn on religion a little bit. Just this blind faith to the power of the church and ignoring all the abuse and suffering it caused. I mean like with my family for example, if you brought up any of the abuse the Catholic church caused or the wrongs it is still committing then they'd just dismiss you or turn on you.

)

It may not be of any comfort to you, but I think you are now in the minority. By that I mean that you have a fundamentalist catholic family that are incapable of looking at the church objectively. This is not a typical situation in 2016. It may have been 30 years ago, but things have changed massively.

Maybe I am only speaking from my own narrow point of view, but I would have difficulty finding more than a handful of people I know that would be in that category and almost none in my extended family.

But the figures speak to the reality too, a minority in this country attend church regularly, a small minority voted against marriage equality. Many of the two aforementioned groups are over 60. You may just have had bad luck, but your situation is not typical, in my experience, or from the evidence. I think your despair for humanity may be influenced by a particularly religious - but untypical - family.

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

I just worry about humanity's ability to direct itself in a positive direction long term if most of the world's population hasn't the mental capacity to figure out that god doesn't exist.

Well, humanity has been around for about 200,000 years, during which time not only have most of the world's population failed to demonstrate the mental capacity to figure out that god doesn't exist, but they've managed to invent thousands of gods to suit their needs. It's fair to say that over that time humanity has demonstrably directed itself in a reasonably positive direction long term; we're still around anyway. So there's probably no great cause for worry in that regard; it looks like we can manage to survive and believe in gods at the same time.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

Its a bit vague on the all important condom issue.
But as sister Miriam is a nun, I would assume the default position is no.
Are we seriously being asked to believe she must be dispensing condoms unless we find evidence to the contrary?

I think we're just questioning the notion that she's a filthy yoke who advised people not to be using condoms.... at least I was.

One eyed Jack

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Any evidence for a god of any sort at all? Since we are on the subject of evidence being important in backing up one's claims!

I never made any claims in this thread about the existence of God though?

That's not being evasive with you or anything, it's just not something I do as I consider it disrespectful to other people who do not share my beliefs. I've never tried to tell anyone what to believe or what not to believe in, I consider it their own business.