Irish Rail - Fine Protocol

Seth Brundle

hmmm wrote: »

As the poster above asked, do you want every suspected fare evader arrested until their identity can be 100% proven, or do you want the public issued with mandatory ID cards?

Preferably neither but that does not mean that an intimadatory process based on zero evidence should be acceptable either!

Jem72

kbannon wrote: »

Preferably neither but that does not mean that an intimadatory process based on zero evidence should be acceptable either!

There is a fourth option of just not prosecuting fare evaders but you need to pick one of the four options (mandatory ID, arrest until ID proven, harassment of innocents or letting people off with dodging). Irish Rail seem to operate on a combination of options 3 and 4.

Personally I don't really have an issue with either carrying ID (I already carry a driver's licence everywhere as I don't like to leave it in my car which practically lives in a railway station carpark) or with arrest if not carrying ID (I carry ID and don't dodge fares). I do have a serious issue with fare evaders not being prosecuted and with innocent parties being harassed.

jjwada

The reason I feel for the OP is that a few years ago I got a notice to pay €40 for non payment of a toll on the west link.
I called them and they werent interested in what i had to say. Treated me like a liar and a criminal.
So I told them my story and left it at that with them. Next comes another charge of €100 in the post.
I didnt bother contacting them. Then i start getting calls from them and each time i tell them i did not drive through the toll bridge on that date, please provide proof that i did and i will pay you, otherwise go jump.

All i got was a photo of my reg.
But I had ferry tickets and enough other evidence to prove that I and more importantly the car were on the ferry from France to Ireland at the exact time the photo was taken and for another few hours after that. They werent interested at all though when i told them the first time, so they could get lost after that. Their mistake, not mine and harassing me wouldnt make it otherwise.

They were accusing me in the wrong and I had no case to answer.
So a few mean sounding letters later and it stopped all of a sudden. no more contact from them since.
And I still have my proof should they want to call to my house and have a look at a time of my choosing, but i wont waste any more of my time defending myself for something they have zero proof of.

OP should do the same. They have tried to talk sense and now their time is being wasted and they are being harassed.

Carawaystick

A simple solution would be for IÉ to pay people they wrongly accuse of a crime if they provide evidence exhonerating them ahead of a court case
I'm sure the OP would take €500 to satisfy the rpu

Corvo Attano

Sorry for my most late reply everyone.

Irish Rail now have seemed to cut contact after we suggested Garda signed photos and alternate solutions such as bringing my sister up to the head office.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

To be fare here but they won't know her from Adam unless you send in proper ID. If anything, by sending in a copy of her passport they are offering you an easy way of proving that it wasn't here who was caught and sorting this out without letting it go further, ie to court. Send it in, they'll see some chancer gave her name and the job is done for the sake of a stamp.

I understand that. My parents were just reluctant to send off the passport without them giving a reason for needing it.

kbannon wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how will they know that the person within the passport picture isn't the person that was caught? Was the offender caught on camera?

No they told us they have no picture.

Malcolm600f wrote: »

OR the person in question caught out dodging school..... :pac:

Not a chance unless she decided to hop a lift to longford or athlone and got back in time for the bus

Agent_47 wrote: »

OP, Out of curiosity what is the fine amount, sibling of mine bought an incorrect ticket (leap card apparently expired, was loaded but not with sibling and was waiting on college to re-open to renew) , was caught out but did not receive an on the spot fine, had to send an email to IR regarding it but may end with a fine.

123 euro I believe

GM228 wrote: »

OP, you have mentioned the accused is your sibling and she is in school and the wrong DOB was supplied, I'm surprised nobody has asked how old is she?

A proof of age may require the charge to be dropped irrespective of if they think it was her or not.

She is 17.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

plodder

hmmm wrote: »

I'm sure the Legal forum can give a definitive answer, but probably Libel laws - the same reason that shops can't put up photographs of shoplifters.

You're probably right. I still think it makes sense to take photos for the exact situation described in this thread.

Though I think it's a mistake to not co-operate to some extent with Irish Rail in trying to establish the facts. You have to look at it from their point of view as well as your own. It's not feasible to expect 100% cast iron evidence before an agency like that takes a case. That's what courts are for at the end of the day. It would be decided by a judge, and the odds are actually stacked against them, given the high burden of proof. For most people, having to go to court is stressful at best. I can't see the point of putting yourself through it, if there is an easy way to avoid it.

To the OP, you should state your case at least to IR in writing. Phone calls aren't a good enough record. Send in documentary evidence (eg a letter from the school) of your choosing. If there is a court case, the judge would have to be shown all of this, and it would help your case.

schemingbohemia

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But compared to sending in a copy of a passport is it not a huge palaver?

Corvo Attano

plodder wrote: »

You're probably right. I still think it makes sense to take photos for the exact situation described in this thread.

Though I think it's a mistake to not co-operate to some extent with Irish Rail in trying to establish the facts. You have to look at it from their point of view as well as your own. It's not feasible to expect 100% cast iron evidence before an agency like that takes a case. That's what courts are for at the end of the day. It would be decided by a judge, and the odds are actually stacked against them, given the high burden of proof. For most people, having to go to court is stressful at best. I can't see the point of putting yourself through it, if there is an easy way to avoid it.

To the OP, you should state your case at least to IR in writing. Phone calls aren't a good enough record. Send in documentary evidence (eg a letter from the school) of your choosing. If there is a court case, the judge would have to be shown all of this, and it would help your case.

But we are trying to co-operate. Right my parents didnt just want to send off the passport but they offered a miriad of other options like Garda signed photos or bringing her up in person. We have been trying. Now they are ignoring us it seems. We'll be sending a letter now that email seems to have failed.

I havnt been vilifying IR here. I realiese they have a job to do. But they are the ones who are being uncooperative bullies here.

schemingbohemia

Corvo Attano wrote: »

But we are trying to co-operate. Right my parents didnt just want to send off the passport but they offered a miriad of other options like Garda signed photos or bringing her up in person. We have been trying. Now they are ignoring us it seems. We'll be sending a letter now that email seems to have failed.

I havnt been vilifying IR here. I realiese they have a job to do. But they are the ones who are being uncooperative bullies here.

What exactly is your problem with giving them a copy of the passport though? Seems a lot easier than going into a Garda station or any of the other "solutions" you're proposing.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Losty Dublin

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

At a stretch it may go into a file for cancelled penalty fares and forgotten about. More likely that it's noted and duly shredded once it's all sorted.

Carawaystick

I presume we could easily check IÉ's data retention policy:rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Carawaystick wrote: »

I presume we could easily check IÉ's data retention policy:rolleyes:

It possibly changed after a data breach...
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/private-eye-illegally-got-into-irish-rail-staff-bank-accounts-26818287.html

bruno1x

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Obviously it will go on to the blackmarket, the KGB and Mossad will pay top dollar for for a photo copy of a Irish passport.

Prediction: The parents will go to court on their high horse, once the Judge finds out it could have been sorted out easily with a photocopy of a passport and the price of a stamp , the Judge will blow a fuse for the parents wasting the courts time and hit them will a bigger fine.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

howiya

bruno1x wrote: »

Obviously it will go on to the blackmarket, the KGB and Mossad will pay top dollar for for a photo copy of a Irish passport.

Prediction: The parents will go to court on their high horse, once the Judge finds out it could have been sorted out easily with a photocopy of a passport and the price of a stamp , the Judge will blow a fuse for the parents wasting the courts time and hit them will a bigger fine.

I would be extremely worried for the future of Irish Rail if they had employees that thought this specific case was worthy of spending the company's resources on going to court.

bruno1x

howiya wrote: »

I would be extremely worried for the future of Irish Rail if they had employees that thought this specific case was worthy of spending the company's resources on going to court.

Over 4,000 views this discussion.
The advice of many is forget about it, ignore the fine and you will get away with it.
No doubt IE would have someone take a look here every now and again to see what people are chatting about.
So the OP by coming here and seeking advice , and been told don't pay and it will go away, has forced the hand of IE, if they did let the OP get away with it, everyone would take the same action when caught and fined.
The OP is in a hole and should stop digging.
As for spending resources in court , many fare evaders will be there on the day, it won't just be the court sitting to deal with one case, so the cost for IE won't matter if its 10 or 11 people on the day.

dalta5billion

Passports contain a huge array of personal data which is irrelevant in proving or disproving the presence of the accused on the train - and the girl's parents are right to be unwilling to give such information to a private company that most likely doesn't have a formal policy for handling and protecting this data. The potential for identity theft is unacceptable.

In Germany and other countries they would blow their tops at such an unnecessary privacy invasion.

Irish Rail are entitled to prosecute offenders. It is up to them to gather the evidence for this however. It is not required of a falsely accused person to sacrifice all privacy rights at the discretion of a private company - that is for a court to decide.

dalta5billion

bruno1x wrote: »

Over 4,000 views this discussion.
The advice of many is forget about it, ignore the fine and you will get away with it.
No doubt IE would have someone take a look here every now and again to see what people are chatting about.
So the OP by coming here and seeking advice , and been told don't pay and it will go away, has forced the hand of IE, if they did let the OP get away with it, everyone would take the same action when caught and fined.
The OP is in a hole and should stop digging.
As for spending resources in court , many fare evaders will be there on the day, it won't just be the court sitting to deal with one case, so the cost for IE won't matter if its 10 or 11 people on the day.

Eh did you read the original post at all?

bruno1x

dalta5billion wrote: »

Passports contain a huge array of personal data which is irrelevant in proving or disproving the presence of the accused on the train - and the girl's parents are right to be unwilling to give such information to a private company that most likely doesn't have a formal policy for handling and protecting this data. The potential for identity theft is unacceptable.

In Germany and other countries they would blow their tops at such an unnecessary privacy invasion.

Irish Rail are entitled to prosecute offenders. It is up to them to gather the evidence for this however. It is not required of a falsely accused person to sacrifice all privacy rights at the discretion of a private company - that is for a court to decide.

Identity theft my ass, people put EVERYTHING online about them selves, a 17 year old girl will no doubt have a Facebook with every detail of her life for all to see,
Redact everything but the name,photo and DOB on the passport, no big deal. Pop it in a envelope and thats it done and dusted, or get on your high horse, hire a solicitor take a day of work and take you daughter out of school to spend a day in court where most likely you will lose and the Judge will be pissed at you for wasting the courts time, when you could have sorted it out very easily.

bruno1x

dalta5billion wrote: »

Eh did you read the original post at all?

I sure did, and many say just ignore it and it will go away.

Seth Brundle

bruno1x wrote: »

Identity theft my ass, people put EVERYTHING online about them selves, a 17 year old girl will no doubt have a Facebook with every detail of her life for all to see,

Completely irrelevant.

bruno1x wrote: »

IRedact everything but the name,photo and DOB on the passport, no big deal. Pop it in a envelope and thats it done and dusted

As IR have stated to the OP that they don't have a picture, what use is this?
Doesn't prove that the OP's kid isn't a fare evader.

bruno1x wrote: »

or get on your high horse, hire a solicitor take a day of work and take you daughter out of school to spend a day in court where most likely you will lose and the Judge will be pissed at you for wasting the courts time, when you could have sorted it out very easily.

They still could end up in court - it all depends on how IR feel about it!

markpb

schemingbohemia wrote:

As far as I can see on this thread, no-one is providing a solution.

In Germany you pay the fine on the spot.

GM228

markpb wrote: »

In Germany you pay the fine on the spot.

And if you don't pay on the spot? (i.e you refuse or genuinely have no money).

markpb

GM228 wrote:

And if you don't pay on the spot? (i.e you refuse or genuinely have no money).

If you have no money, they'll accompany you to an ATM. Not sure what happens if there's none near by or you've no cash. I suspect the police might be involved.

Grab All Association

Letter stamped from school should be sufficient evidence in court. DO NOT SEND A COPY OF HER PASSPORT TO Iarnród Éireann. The onus is on them to prove it was her and they'll have the opportunity to do this on the day and will fail miserably.

Now on to counterclaiming

2) A defendant who wishes to counterclaim under paragraph (1) hereof shall give, or send by ordinary post, to the plaintiff or solicitor for the plaintiff a notice in the Form 41.3, Schedule C, setting out particulars of the counterclaim. Such notice shall be so given or sent as soon as possible after the service upon the defendant of the civil summons, but shall in every case be given to the plaintiff or solicitor (or sent by post so soon as to reach him or her) not later than four days before the date of sitting of the Court to which the civil summons is returnable. A copy of the notice shall at the same time be lodged with the Clerk. Except where the plaintiff agrees to accept shorter notice, no notice of a counterclaim shall be given or sent under this rule later than the time specified herein save by leave of the Court granted under paragraph (3) hereof.

Costs, loss of wages, fuel/transport and reasonable food expenses.

It's the only way they'll learn.

devnull

Heaven forbid someone might use their passport (a form of Identification) for identification purposes, that would be far too logical.

Surprised nobody mentioned civil liberties yet

TheChizler

devnull wrote: »

Heaven forbid someone might use their passport (a form of Identification) for identification purposes, that would be far too logical.

Surprised nobody mentioned civil liberties yet

I don't think using it as ID is the issue, there seems to be no problem with just showing it to them. There's an understandable reluctance to give IR a copy of it.

I'm not sure what showing the passport would achieve though. The OP's sister's defence is that the name and address has been lied about. In that case why would you expect the culprit to have been truthful about the DOB? If you're just relying on name, address, and DOB, from the OP's perspective the fare evader lied about the name, address and may have been truthful about the DOB, while from IR's perspective the fare evader may have lied about the DOB but may have been truthful about name and address. I'm not sure what supplying proof of age would do when all the evidence IR have is compromised anyway (apart from proving that at least one of their pieces of information is incorrect, which I suppose is useful).

The letter from the school is probably the best piece of evidence here. I'd get them to give a time for your parents to meet them that suits your parents, show them the passport to prove that the information they have isn't 100% accurate (don't let them make a copy!) and show them the letter from the school.

devnull

Irish Rail staff have been known to ask for ID when fining someone, on occasion it is bank cards on other occasions it is passports etc. If the RPO took down the passport number it explains both why the RPO wants to see a copy and why the OP won't give it.

The OP said that his sister did not evade, it is not a proven fact. Just because someone says something doesn't mean it is true. But it's great that some people on here are happy to hear one side of a story and automatically presume IE are guilty and the OP is not.

Therefore why don't we just abolish the court system and just ask the defendant what happened and take their word for it without hearing the other side? It would save the country an awful lot of money and since the defendent always tells the truth courts are a waste of time anyway