Irish Rail - Fine Protocol

Corvo Attano

Hi all,

Ill try keep this as concise as possible.
A sibling of mine recently received notice in the post that they were being fined for traveling without a ticket on a train. Irish Rail claim they were caught, her details taken and that she was informed it would be followed up on.

Heres the kicker however. She wasnt on the train. She wasnt even near a train station. So it couldnt have been her. When my parents called up irish rail to clarify they said they would ook into it and get back. They stepped of for a while until she recieved a second notice in the post.

Again my parents called and they said they were convinced it was her and that they would be proceeding. My parents again asserted it couldnt have been her, she wasnt in the location and the DOB the person gave dosent match my sisters.

Now Irish Rail are barking at my parents to send a photocopy of my sisters passport as some form of proof that it wasnt her. Now we cant see why they need the passport and are hesitant to give it. My parents have offered to provide proof via school letter stating she was in attendance on the day and to send a signed picture witnessed by the guards but theyre having none of it and today got very agressive and short on the phone saying that if we wont give it then it will end up in court

Basically im here to see if its proper procedure to hand over passport details and to see if anybody has had similar experience and could advise.

Losty Dublin

Unfortunately people give out false details when caught evading fares all the time and it's at the expense of innocent parties. They are entitled to ask for ID in the event of they stopping a person for fare evasion in the event of dispute but it's not practical all the time. A letter from the school is all well and good but it isn't ID and it doesn't prove that she was in or out of the school at the time; kids will wag classes or travel home or to medical appointments etc etc.

To be fare here but they won't know her from Adam unless you send in proper ID. If anything, by sending in a copy of her passport they are offering you an easy way of proving that it wasn't here who was caught and sorting this out without letting it go further, ie to court. Send it in, they'll see some chancer gave her name and the job is done for the sake of a stamp.

Atlantic Dawn

I'd let it go to court and refuse to provide th passport details but it could be upsetting for a kid going in to court. As a compromise would they accept you bringing the passport to your local Irish Rail station and getting the employee on duty there to confirm the details by viewing it?

Hilly Bill

No point showing it to some random person in a station. It needs to be shown to the Rpu office who is dealing with it. All they are asking for proof that the wrong person was fined. Why mess about with going to court when it can be solved easily. By dragging it on , the person that was fined has the hassle of dealing with the fine while the right person gets away with it.

n97 mini

Send a photocopy in, blanking out all but the name, photo and DOB.

In fairness to IE RPU they have a job to do too, and I would do that tiny little thing to help them. It's quite probable someone known to your sister gave her details.

Seth Brundle

Out of curiosity, how will they know that the person within the passport picture isn't the person that was caught? Was the offender caught on camera?

Atlantic Dawn

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No point showing it to some random person in a station. It needs to be shown to the Rpu office who is dealing with it. All they are asking for proof that the wrong person was fined. Why mess about with going to court when it can be solved easily. By dragging it on , the person that was fined has the hassle of dealing with the fine while the right person gets away with it.

I meant that the Rpu office would approve the station, they would contact the employee and when they saw it that would be that. It's Rpu's problem that they didn't verify identification on the fare dodger, it's not the innocent parties responsibility to run to the corners of the earth to clear up a mess caused by not veriftying the ID of the fare dodger. They should have held the person until Gardaí arrived if they couldn't verify their ID to their satisfaction.

Malcolm600f

whats the chances a fare dodger could possibly be lucky enough to guess a fake name that is linked to a address with a person with he same name,...

Atlantic Dawn

Malcolm600f wrote: »

whats the chances a fare dodger could possibly be lucky enough to guess a fake name that is linked to a address with a person with he same name,...

Wouldn't be a fake name, it would be someone they know, most likely someone living near them or a friend from school etc.

Malcolm600f

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Wouldn't be a fake name, it would be someone they know, most likely someone living near them or a friend from school etc.

OR the person in question caught out dodging school..... :pac:

Agent_47

Corvo Attano wrote: »

Hi all,

Ill try keep this as concise as possible.
A sibling of mine recently received notice in the post that they were being fined for traveling without a ticket on a train. Irish Rail claim they were caught, her details taken and that she was informed it would be followed up on.

Heres the kicker however. She wasnt on the train. She wasnt even near a train station. So it couldnt have been her. When my parents called up irish rail to clarify they said they would ook into it and get back. They stepped of for a while until she recieved a second notice in the post.

Again my parents called and they said they were convinced it was her and that they would be proceeding. My parents again asserted it couldnt have been her, she wasnt in the location and the DOB the person gave dosent match my sisters.

Now Irish Rail are barking at my parents to send a photocopy of my sisters passport as some form of proof that it wasnt her. Now we cant see why they need the passport and are hesitant to give it. My parents have offered to provide proof via school letter stating she was in attendance on the day and to send a signed picture witnessed by the guards but theyre having none of it and today got very agressive and short on the phone saying that if we wont give it then it will end up in court

Basically im here to see if its proper procedure to hand over passport details and to see if anybody has had similar experience and could advise.

OP, Out of curiosity what is the fine amount, sibling of mine bought an incorrect ticket (leap card apparently expired, was loaded but not with sibling and was waiting on college to re-open to renew) , was caught out but did not receive an on the spot fine, had to send an email to IR regarding it but may end with a fine.

Losty Dublin

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I meant that the Rpu office would approve the station, they would contact the employee and when they saw it that would be that. It's Rpu's problem that they didn't verify identification on the fare dodger, it's not the innocent parties responsibility to run to the corners of the earth to clear up a mess caused by not veriftying the ID of the fare dodger. They should have held the person until Gardaí arrived if they couldn't verify their ID to their satisfaction.

Unfortunately it's the passengers problem to address as she is the one who will face the rap, even if it wasn't of her making. They are offering a simple solution to sort this out and to show that it wasn't her that they apprehended. Going to stations and involving staff is just making things awkward when it needs not be.

Clearlier

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Unfortunately it's the passengers problem to address as she is the one who will face the rap, even if it wasn't of her making. They are offering a simple solution to sort this out and to show that it wasn't her that they apprehended. Going to stations and involving staff is just making things awkward when it needs not be.

Obviously it's the OP's sister rather than the passenger who is being asked to take the rap.

I'd send the photocopy as requested. I'd also follow up with a complaint about the aggressive behaviour. No matter that they thought they were being lied to they have a significant power and they should use it in an endlessly polite fashion whoever they think that they are dealing with.

bruno1x

Malcolm600f wrote: »

whats the chances a fare dodger could possibly be lucky enough to guess a fake name that is linked to a address with a person with he same name,...

They just have to give a name and address which they know to be true, the RPU might make a phone call to see if this is correct and if so the offender is given a fine and sent on their way. Its wide open to abuse.

n97 mini

Malcolm600f wrote: »

whats the chances a fare dodger could possibly be lucky enough to guess a fake name that is linked to a address with a person with he same name,...

My next door neighbour is an asshole. I know his name, address and telephone number.

Atlantic Dawn

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Unfortunately it's the passengers problem to address as she is the one who will face the rap, even if it wasn't of her making. They are offering a simple solution to sort this out and to show that it wasn't her that they apprehended. Going to stations and involving staff is just making things awkward when it needs not be.

But she was not the passenger.

Losty Dublin

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

But she was not the passenger.

Probably not but she still has to convince the RPU of this. They've told her what to do next and it's not excessive a task by any stretch. For the want of a stamp to save it going to court and that hassle...

n97 mini

...and it might help catch whoever it was that gave her details.

foggy_lad

If it goes to court all the person has to do is tell the judge they were not there on the day and that they have no knowledge of any fine. they will have a signed and stamped letter from school saying they were in attendance there and that will be enough for most judges!

Atlantic Dawn

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Probably not but she still has to convince the RPU of this. They've told her what to do next and it's not excessive a task by any stretch. For the want of a stamp to save it going to court and that hassle...

If it was personally a charge against me I would supply them with nothing and go straight to court to have it thrown out so their systems could be improved. If more people did this IR would eventually streamline their systems so that they would in general fine those not paying for travel.

Atlantic Dawn

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Probably not but she still has to convince the RPU of this. They've told her what to do next and it's not excessive a task by any stretch. For the want of a stamp to save it going to court and that hassle...

Where in law does it state that they need to accommodate their undocumented requests? They have accused her without her being verified as being the person accused, at a minimum they should follow National Toll Roads approach and take a photo of the subject and then proceed looking for money.

Heisenberg1

OP just send in the copy of the passport I don't see why your parents are reluctant to do this. It will save hassle down the line.

devnull

If I was an Revenue Protection Officer and I offered someone the chance of proving their passport to avoid possibly going to court about it and the then person turned around and didn't want to do it, that straight away would give me the impression that the story they were presenting may not be true.

OP, I'm not saying that your daughter did evade her fare, but looking at it from the Revenue Protection Officer's point of view, any refusal to supply the documents that could prove your daughters innocence would give anyone in the same position of the RPO more doubt on your side of the story.

Unfortunately many people have tried various techniques and excuses to avoid getting a fine and will abuse the system given the chance to avoid paying the fine, so you need to look at this from the RPO's point of view, I think what they are doing is entirely reasonable, your daughter has been accused and they are giving you a chance to prove she is innocent, personally if it was my daughter I would submit the documents about any hesitation unless I had something to hide or had some doubt if she evaded or not.

I have read cases where mistaken identity has been claimed by others to get off fare evasion and when it goes to court the judge tends not to look very favorably on people who claim it wasn't them when the operator can prove that it was, since it is a show of dishonesty. Again I'm not saying that your daughter is one of these people, but it has happened many times before when people have played the mistaken identity card and it will many times again and the operator has to protect themselves from chancers else everyone would try the same tactic.

Hilly Bill

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I meant that the Rpu office would approve the station, they would contact the employee and when they saw it that would be that. It's Rpu's problem that they didn't verify identification on the fare dodger, it's not the innocent parties responsibility to run to the corners of the earth to clear up a mess caused by not veriftying the ID of the fare dodger. They should have held the person until Gardaí arrived if they couldn't verify their ID to their satisfaction.

Chances are they did verify and the right person was fined . If not then it's up to you to prove otherwise. I wasn't aware the dart went to the far corners of the earth :-)

Hilly Bill

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

If it was personally a charge against me I would supply them with nothing and go straight to court to have it thrown out so their systems could be improved. If more people did this IR would eventually streamline their systems so that they would in general fine those not paying for travel.

Why waste a day?

Hilly Bill

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Where in law does it state that they need to accommodate their undocumented requests? They have accused her without her being verified as being the person accused, at a minimum they should follow National Toll Roads approach and take a photo of the subject and then proceed looking for money.

You can be assured that they get the " It wasn't me excuse " every day and can deal with it.

howiya

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Probably not but she still has to convince the RPU of this. They've told her what to do next and it's not excessive a task by any stretch. For the want of a stamp to save it going to court and that hassle...

Why does she have to convince the RPU of anything? Surely its the responsibility of the accuser to prove guilt?

Losty Dublin

howiya wrote: »

Why does she have to convince the RPU of anything? Surely its the responsibility of the accuser to prove guilt?

Her defence here is that she wasn't the passenger caught by the RPU on the train. Unless she provides some proof that she wasn't the person that they dealt with on the day, the RPU have to work on the presumption that it was actually her.

Seth Brundle

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Her defence here is that she wasn't the passenger caught by the RPU on the train. Unless she provides some proof that she wasn't the person that they dealt with on the day, the RPU have to work on the presumption that it was actually her.

I asked earlier and got no response. By producing her passport, how will that prove that it wasn't her on the train? Do they take a picture if the person when caught to compare against?
It all sounds quite flimsy to be honest!

Losty Dublin

kbannon wrote: »

I asked earlier and got no response. By producing her passport, how will that prove that it wasn't her on the train? Do they take a picture if the person when caught to compare against?
It all sounds quite flimsy to be honest!

The RPU inspectors work in teams with one inspector issuing tickets and one taking notes and observing proceedings when fixed penalty fares are issued. Dublin Bus and Luas teams work in the same manner. Photo ID will quickly show if they have the right person or not.

howiya

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Her defence here is that she wasn't the passenger caught by the RPU on the train. Unless she provides some proof that she wasn't the person that they dealt with on the day, the RPU have to work on the presumption that it was actually her.

You're missing my point. You don't have to prove that your innocent. It's up to your accuser to prove your guilty

Seth Brundle

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The RPU inspectors work in teams with one inspector issuing tickets and one taking notes and observing proceedings when fixed penalty fares are issued. Dublin Bus and Luas teams work in the same manner. Photo ID will quickly show if they have the right person or not.

So they take a picture of the offender?
If not, how can they state for sure some weeks later that the alleged fare evaders is the same as the person accused?

GerardKeating

howiya wrote: »

You're missing my point. You don't have to prove that your innocent. It's up to your accuser to prove your guilty

Yes, and they will try and (hopefully) fail in court to do this, so if the OP wants a day on court, let them waste their, the courts and the OP's time and money.

Or they could help shorten the proceedings for all.

Losty Dublin

kbannon wrote: »

So they take a picture of the offender?
If not, how can they state for sure some weeks later that the alleged fare evaders is the same as the person accused?

I never said that they take photos. One inspector issues a ticket and one observes proceedings and takes notes if needs be.

Seth Brundle

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I never said that they take photos. One inspector issues a ticket and one observes proceedings and takes notes if needs be.

So what's the point of providing ID after the event? It doesn't prove that the accused was not the offender? There is absolutely no evidence against the accused! The whole thing seems like a pointless exercise in order to prove innocence.

Losty Dublin

kbannon wrote: »

So what's the point of providing ID after the event? It doesn't prove that the accused was not the offender? There is absolutely no evidence against the accused! The whole thing seems like a pointless exercise in order to prove innocence.

It's rather obvious what the point is; it proves to the RPU that the person whom they met on the train gave false details. It also saves an innocent party a needless day in court.

Seth Brundle

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's rather obvious what the point is; it proves to the RPU that the person whom they met on the train gave false details. It also saves an innocent party a needless day in court.

It doesn't prove anything!
The inspectors meet so many people that they will not be in a position to confirm if the accused was the person they caught a few weeks back with any degree if certainty.
There are, based on what has been posted, no photos taken to identify the person caught, only a few notes.
So how does someone sending in a photocopy of their passport prove innocence?
If I was accused of travelling on the train without a ticket, how can Irish Rail prove that it was actually me? Just by saying "the person gave your name and address"?

markpb

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I never said that they take photos. One inspector issues a ticket and one observes proceedings and takes notes if needs be.

By 'takes notes', do you mean they draw a quick sketch of the person like an escaped courtroom caricaturist?

howiya

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's rather obvious what the point is; it proves to the RPU that the person whom they met on the train gave false details. It also saves an innocent party a needless day in court.

Why would Irish Rail bring the person to court if they had no proof the person they issued the letter to was actually the person on the train?

markpb

howiya wrote:

Why would Irish Rail bring the person to court if they had no proof the person they issued the letter to was actually the person on the train?

The burden of proof (of guilt) for fare evasion is probably very low.

GM228

OP, you have mentioned the accused is your sibling and she is in school and the wrong DOB was supplied, I'm surprised nobody has asked how old is she?

A proof of age may require the charge to be dropped irrespective of if they think it was her or not.

magicbastarder

are the ticket inspectors allowed take your photo as part of issuing a fine?
surely that would eliminate a hell of a lot of issues like these - one, by making it easy to prove 'it wasn't me, guv', and two, by reducing the number of people giving fake names.

i've wondered this a couple of times when seeing schoolkids giving obviously fake names on the green line luas; it was a local school uniform both times, so i wondered what the legality of the ticket inspectors sending photos to the school would be. when i was in school, we were informed that any mischief we got up to while in school uniform could be dealt with as a school disciplinary issue, even if it happened outside school hours.

Elemonator

It's an age old trick of giving fake addresses and names. The sad thing is the person who stole your sister's identity is most likely known to her.

Seth Brundle

markpb wrote: »

The burden of proof (of guilt) for fare evasion is probably very low.

Based on the previous posts, it appears that no proof at all is required!

GM228

kbannon wrote: »

Based on the previous posts, it appears that no proof at all is required!

Proof only comes into play in court, not when accused.

dalta5billion

Should your sibling be required to give up her private information to a third party because of a false allegation against her?

Send a letter to Irish Rail listing every phone call and what was demanded of you, what you offered, and what was refused. Indicate your dissatisfaction with their tone. You need to get your cooperation on the record.

If this ever goes to court, which it likely will not, the school will likely have hour-by-hour records of her attendance, assuming the incident didn't happen over a lunch break.

jjwada

I would ignore it. You have told them that they have got it wrong.
Let them go away now and get it right and not waste anymore of your time.
And send them a bill for the time yourself and your family have spent entertaining their unproven ****e up to this point.

GM228

dalta5billion wrote: »

Should your sibling be required to give up her private information to a third party because of a false allegation against her?

Anybody who is reasonably suspected must provide their name and address only under law, but nothing more.

My concern would be how do you define "reasonably suspected"?

jjwada wrote: »

I would ignore it. You have told them that they have got it wrong.
Let them go away now and get it right and not waste anymore of your time.
And send them a bill for the time yourself and your family have spent entertaining their unproven ****e up to this point.

The problem is if they accepted everybody who said they got it wrong without actually proving that then everybody would be doing the same.

What sort of bill could the OP send them? I can't see how it would cost anything other than a bus/train fare to go to the RPU office or a stamp or photocopy charge to mail a copy of any proof?

dalta5billion

GM228 wrote: »

Anybody who is reasonably suspected must provide their name and address only under law, but nothing more.

My concern would be how do you define "reasonably suspected"?

That's if they're on the train...

GM228

dalta5billion wrote: »

That's if they're on the train...

The law doesn't say that the accused actually has to be on the train, simply that they are reasonably suspected of breaking a bye-law etc, they then must provide their name and address no matter where they are, in this case it's irrelevant as they already seem to know this persons name and address, the point is the accused does not have to prove any other details.

22A.—(1) If an authorised officer reasonably suspects that a person—

(a) is contravening or has contravened or is failing or has failed to comply with a provision of bye-laws made under section 22 of this Act which is stated in the bye-laws to be a penal provision,

GM228

magicbastarder wrote: »

are the ticket inspectors allowed take your photo as part of issuing a fine?
surely that would eliminate a hell of a lot of issues like these - one, by making it easy to prove 'it wasn't me, guv', and two, by reducing the number of people giving fake names.

i've wondered this a couple of times when seeing schoolkids giving obviously fake names on the green line luas; it was a local school uniform both times, so i wondered what the legality of the ticket inspectors sending photos to the school would be. when i was in school, we were informed that any mischief we got up to while in school uniform could be dealt with as a school disciplinary issue, even if it happened outside school hours.

They could legally take a photo if it was policy and then came under the strict responsibility/control of a data controller, however the photo could only be viewed by the Gardai or in a court and not sent to or viewed by anybody else or any organisation/school etc.