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Irish Rail - Fine Protocol

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    #32
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    The RPU inspectors work in teams with one inspector issuing tickets and one taking notes and observing proceedings when fixed penalty fares are issued. Dublin Bus and Luas teams work in the same manner. Photo ID will quickly show if they have the right person or not.
    So they take a picture of the offender?
    If not, how can they state for sure some weeks later that the alleged fare evaders is the same as the person accused?


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    #33
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,542 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    howiya wrote: »
    You're missing my point. You don't have to prove that your innocent. It's up to your accuser to prove your guilty

    Yes, and they will try and (hopefully) fail in court to do this, so if the OP wants a day on court, let them waste their, the courts and the OP's time and money.

    Or they could help shorten the proceedings for all.


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    #34
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    kbannon wrote: »
    So they take a picture of the offender?
    If not, how can they state for sure some weeks later that the alleged fare evaders is the same as the person accused?

    I never said that they take photos. One inspector issues a ticket and one observes proceedings and takes notes if needs be.


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    #35
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    I never said that they take photos. One inspector issues a ticket and one observes proceedings and takes notes if needs be.

    So what's the point of providing ID after the event? It doesn't prove that the accused was not the offender? There is absolutely no evidence against the accused! The whole thing seems like a pointless exercise in order to prove innocence.


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    #36
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,006 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    kbannon wrote: »
    So what's the point of providing ID after the event? It doesn't prove that the accused was not the offender? There is absolutely no evidence against the accused! The whole thing seems like a pointless exercise in order to prove innocence.

    It's rather obvious what the point is; it proves to the RPU that the person whom they met on the train gave false details. It also saves an innocent party a needless day in court.


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    #37
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    It's rather obvious what the point is; it proves to the RPU that the person whom they met on the train gave false details. It also saves an innocent party a needless day in court.
    It doesn't prove anything!
    The inspectors meet so many people that they will not be in a position to confirm if the accused was the person they caught a few weeks back with any degree if certainty.
    There are, based on what has been posted, no photos taken to identify the person caught, only a few notes.
    So how does someone sending in a photocopy of their passport prove innocence?
    If I was accused of travelling on the train without a ticket, how can Irish Rail prove that it was actually me? Just by saying "the person gave your name and address"?


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    #38
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭markpb


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    I never said that they take photos. One inspector issues a ticket and one observes proceedings and takes notes if needs be.

    By 'takes notes', do you mean they draw a quick sketch of the person like an escaped courtroom caricaturist?


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    #39
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭howiya


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    It's rather obvious what the point is; it proves to the RPU that the person whom they met on the train gave false details. It also saves an innocent party a needless day in court.

    Why would Irish Rail bring the person to court if they had no proof the person they issued the letter to was actually the person on the train?


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    #40
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭markpb


    howiya wrote:
    Why would Irish Rail bring the person to court if they had no proof the person they issued the letter to was actually the person on the train?

    The burden of proof (of guilt) for fare evasion is probably very low.


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    #41
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    OP, you have mentioned the accused is your sibling and she is in school and the wrong DOB was supplied, I'm surprised nobody has asked how old is she?

    A proof of age may require the charge to be dropped irrespective of if they think it was her or not.


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    #42
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,516 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    are the ticket inspectors allowed take your photo as part of issuing a fine?
    surely that would eliminate a hell of a lot of issues like these - one, by making it easy to prove 'it wasn't me, guv', and two, by reducing the number of people giving fake names.

    i've wondered this a couple of times when seeing schoolkids giving obviously fake names on the green line luas; it was a local school uniform both times, so i wondered what the legality of the ticket inspectors sending photos to the school would be. when i was in school, we were informed that any mischief we got up to while in school uniform could be dealt with as a school disciplinary issue, even if it happened outside school hours.


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    #43
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    It's an age old trick of giving fake addresses and names. The sad thing is the person who stole your sister's identity is most likely known to her.


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    #44
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    markpb wrote: »
    The burden of proof (of guilt) for fare evasion is probably very low.
    Based on the previous posts, it appears that no proof at all is required!


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    #45
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    kbannon wrote: »
    Based on the previous posts, it appears that no proof at all is required!

    Proof only comes into play in court, not when accused.


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    #46
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    Should your sibling be required to give up her private information to a third party because of a false allegation against her?

    Send a letter to Irish Rail listing every phone call and what was demanded of you, what you offered, and what was refused. Indicate your dissatisfaction with their tone. You need to get your cooperation on the record.

    If this ever goes to court, which it likely will not, the school will likely have hour-by-hour records of her attendance, assuming the incident didn't happen over a lunch break.


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    #47
    jjwada
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭jjwada


    I would ignore it. You have told them that they have got it wrong.
    Let them go away now and get it right and not waste anymore of your time.
    And send them a bill for the time yourself and your family have spent entertaining their unproven ****e up to this point.


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    #48
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Should your sibling be required to give up her private information to a third party because of a false allegation against her?

    Anybody who is reasonably suspected must provide their name and address only under law, but nothing more.

    My concern would be how do you define "reasonably suspected"?
    jjwada wrote: »
    I would ignore it. You have told them that they have got it wrong.
    Let them go away now and get it right and not waste anymore of your time.
    And send them a bill for the time yourself and your family have spent entertaining their unproven ****e up to this point.

    The problem is if they accepted everybody who said they got it wrong without actually proving that then everybody would be doing the same.

    What sort of bill could the OP send them? I can't see how it would cost anything other than a bus/train fare to go to the RPU office or a stamp or photocopy charge to mail a copy of any proof?


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    #49
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    GM228 wrote: »
    Anybody who is reasonably suspected must provide their name and address only under law, but nothing more.

    My concern would be how do you define "reasonably suspected"?

    That's if they're on the train...


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    #50
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    That's if they're on the train...

    The law doesn't say that the accused actually has to be on the train, simply that they are reasonably suspected of breaking a bye-law etc, they then must provide their name and address no matter where they are, in this case it's irrelevant as they already seem to know this persons name and address, the point is the accused does not have to prove any other details.
    22A.—(1) If an authorised officer reasonably suspects that a person—

    (a) is contravening or has contravened or is failing or has failed to comply with a provision of bye-laws made under section 22 of this Act which is stated in the bye-laws to be a penal provision,


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    #51
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    are the ticket inspectors allowed take your photo as part of issuing a fine?
    surely that would eliminate a hell of a lot of issues like these - one, by making it easy to prove 'it wasn't me, guv', and two, by reducing the number of people giving fake names.

    i've wondered this a couple of times when seeing schoolkids giving obviously fake names on the green line luas; it was a local school uniform both times, so i wondered what the legality of the ticket inspectors sending photos to the school would be. when i was in school, we were informed that any mischief we got up to while in school uniform could be dealt with as a school disciplinary issue, even if it happened outside school hours.

    They could legally take a photo if it was policy and then came under the strict responsibility/control of a data controller, however the photo could only be viewed by the Gardai or in a court and not sent to or viewed by anybody else or any organisation/school etc.


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    #52
    XrayGolf
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭XrayGolf


    kbannon wrote: »
    I asked earlier and got no response. By producing her passport, how will that prove that it wasn't her on the train? Do they take a picture if the person when caught to compare against?
    It all sounds quite flimsy to be honest!

    I'm pretty sure there's CCTV in stations and on trains, so at some point the fare evader would of had his/her image captured. Also it's possible there is also CCTV footage of the RPU dealing with the evader.

    I would just provide the details as required and get the issue over and done with rather than needlessly prolonging the issue.


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    #53
    jjwada
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭jjwada


    Just tell them, you werent on the train that day, in exactly the same way as you werent on the moon that day, even if someone who knew your name and address told them you were on the moon.


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    #54
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    XrayGolf wrote: »
    I would just provide the details as required and get the issue over and done with rather than needlessly prolonging the issue.
    Whilst I accept your point on their ability to use cctv to help verify the accused, it's not infallible.
    Furthermore, according to the OP, the parents of the accused have gone to lengths to prove innocence but the RPU are certain (with no proof) that the person caught is the accused.
    Their bull allegations seem just like bullying to get their way to be honest!
    If I were the parent, I'd ask to see the evidence of the accused commuting the offence before entertaining it any further.


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    #55
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭howiya


    GM228 wrote: »
    Proof only comes into play in court, not when accused.

    That's bizarre. Irish Rail have no proof that this person was on a train/at a train station and yet send multiple letters demanding payment of a fine. Surely they should have some fail safe to stop them from falsely accusing people.


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    #56
    jjwada
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭jjwada


    howiya wrote: »
    That's bizarre. Irish Rail have no proof that this person was on a train/at a train station and yet send multiple letters demanding payment of a fine. Surely they should have some fail safe to stop them from falsely accusing people.

    Harassing a child too.


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    #57
    XrayGolf
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭XrayGolf


    howiya wrote: »
    That's bizarre. Irish Rail have no proof that this person was on a train/at a train station and yet send multiple letters demanding payment of a fine. Surely they should have some fail safe to stop them from falsely accusing people.

    Firstly, we don't know what proof Irish Rail do or don't have, there could be CCTV footage, a RPO who remembers the incident and person in question etc...

    The difficulty here arises in trying to sort those who are genuinly falsely accused from those who are trying to wriggle their way out of a fine. Irish Rail didn't pluck the OP's sibling's details out of thin air, someone had to supply them to the RPO. Therefore, my advice would be to fully co-operate with them and get the matter resolved and closed.


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    #58
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,144 ✭✭✭plodder


    GM228 wrote: »
    They could legally take a photo if it was policy and then came under the strict responsibility/control of a data controller, however the photo could only be viewed by the Gardai or in a court and not sent to or viewed by anybody else or any organisation/school etc.
    I assume this is all about data protection, as opposed to privacy, given that it all happens in public. But, if conditions of carriage made it clear that photos could be used in any reasonable way related to investigation of fare evasion, then that would surely allow it to be shown to say the OP's sibling for the purpose of identifying who had given their name and address? Caveat - I'm not a a lawyer...


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    #59
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    kbannon wrote: »
    Whilst I accept your point on their ability to use cctv to help verify the accused, it's not infallible.
    Furthermore, according to the OP, the parents of the accused have gone to lengths to prove innocence but the RPU are certain (with no proof) that the person caught is the accused.
    Their bull allegations seem just like bullying to get their way to be honest!
    If I were the parent, I'd ask to see the evidence of the accused commuting the offence before entertaining it any further.

    What great lengths?


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    #60
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    plodder wrote: »
    I assume this is all about data protection, as opposed to privacy, given that it all happens in public. But, if conditions of carriage made it clear that photos could be used in any reasonable way related to investigation of fare evasion, then that would surely allow it to be shown to say the OP's sibling for the purpose of identifying who had given their name and address? Caveat - I'm not a a lawyer...

    Yes due to data protection laws, to set up such a policy is not as simple as you think and would need to be justified and come under serious scrutiny.

    No unfortunately they could not show the image to the OPs sibling as the image may be of someone else in which case it's a breach of data protection laws. Only the Gardaí could examine it and confirm if the person on the photo is the person suspected.

    Generally only the Gardaí, a court and the person who's picture is taken has a right to view it.


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    #61
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    What great lengths?
    I didn't say "great lengths".

    However, the OP mentioned two calls to the RPU both of which appear to have earned no understanding fro the RPU of the possibility that they may be wrong.
    The OP also offered a statement from the school and a signed picture both of which were rejected.
    So in effect the RPU seem to be able to accuse anyone of an offence and then refuse reasonable attempts to object to the allegation. In all of this the RPU do not appear to have provided a shred of evidence yet somehow stand firmly in their belief that they are right.


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