Robot milking 60 cows

farmerman

Hi folks I'm looking for a bit of advice so any ye have would be greatly appreciated!
I'm currently finishing my degree in ag science and when I finish I hope to find a job suitable job in maybe a feed merchants or something similar. However we also have a farm at home which i am very interested in running and feel my parents would be on board with me having a say in the running of the farm and its direction. The farm we have is not big, it only consists of 60 acres with 40 acres around the yard but I am an ambitious lad and wish to convert the farm from its current tillage and beef operation to possibly a dairy farm. I know that I haven't the land to run a large scale farm but my plan is (and this is where I'm looking for the advice): I would hope to possibly build a cubicle shed and put in robot with the view to milking 60 cows on the land around the yard, I am however wondering would this be viable as I would hope to maintain a job aswell. I wound obviously have to have a flexible job where I could fit work in around the farming. I do realise that having 60 cows on 40 acres is stocking at 3.7 cows/ha which is high but I would look to possible rent some neighbouring land while using the other 20 acres block along with some rented ground for silage and replacements. The reason for my interest in dairy is I have worked on dairy farms since I was very young and have a very good knowledge of what's involved so I'm certainly not going in obvlious to the work requirement.
Would ye reckon it is economically viable idea or is it just a pipe dream that will always remain that way?? Any advice and tips would be greatly appreciated

Farmer Ed

farmerman wrote: »

Hi folks I'm looking for a bit of advice so any ye have would be greatly appreciated!
I'm currently finishing my degree in ag science and when I finish I hope to find a job suitable job in maybe a feed merchants or something similar. However we also have a farm at home which i am very interested in running and feel my parents would be on board with me having a say in the running of the farm and its direction. The farm we have is not big, it only consists of 60 acres with 40 acres around the yard but I am an ambitious lad and wish to convert the farm from its current tillage and beef operation to possibly a dairy farm. I know that I haven't the land to run a large scale farm but my plan is (and this is where I'm looking for the advice): I would hope to possibly build a cubicle shed and put in robot with the view to milking 60 cows on the land around the yard, I am however wondering would this be viable as I would hope to maintain a job aswell. I wound obviously have to have a flexible job where I could fit work in around the farming. I do realise that having 60 cows on 40 acres is stocking at 3.7 cows/ha which is high but I would look to possible rent some neighbouring land while using the other 20 acres block along with some rented ground for silage and replacements. The reason for my interest in dairy is I have worked on dairy farms since I was very young and have a very good knowledge of what's involved so I'm certainly not going in obvlious to the work requirement.
Would ye reckon it is economically viable idea or is it just a pipe dream that will always remain that way?? Any advice and tips would be greatly appreciated

My advice would be to wait a while and see how this whole dairy thing starts to pan out. If it improves maybe its not a pipe dream. But at the moment the way things are to be honest it's not looking good.

As for keeping down a job with a robot? Your boss would need to be flexible.
A robot is labour saying for sure,but you will get alam calls. Think of it as being a bit like having a pregnant wife.

Kilmac1

Put in a robot this year and you would need to be working close or be able to leave at anytime if something goes wrong and it isn't as easy as throw the robot in and let's the cows at it you need to spend time training the cows and watching them for aleast first few weeks

Greengrass1

Kilmac1 wrote: »

Put in a robot this year and you would need to be working close or be able to leave at anytime if something goes wrong and it isn't as easy as throw the robot in and let's the cows at it you need to spend time training the cows and watching them for aleast first few weeks

Nice to see a poster here with a robot. Hopefully you'll keep up the posting. Love the idea of robots but not for us atm

Greengrass1

Op what state is the land in? Was tillage land well looked after? I'd strongly urge you not to stock at 3.7 day 1. You won't be able to grow the grass imo. Build up the stocking rate from 2.6 over a few yrs when you grow the grass.

We're nearly into our 13th yr here after we bought and turned a tillage farm that was rented out and turned it into dairying. Only last 3 yrs were growing proper grass and we'll be at 2.6 cows/ha for the coming season and my parents had 30 yrs of dairy farming under there belts

Farmer Ed

Kilmac1 wrote: »

Put in a robot this year and you would need to be working close or be able to leave at anytime if something goes wrong and it isn't as easy as throw the robot in and let's the cows at it you need to spend time training the cows and watching them for aleast first few weeks

To be fair the first year is the hardest it gets better when both man and beast get used to it.

Timmaay

Unless you can milk 100+ moving forward forget about it

Farmer Ed

Timmaay wrote: »

Unless you can milk 100+ moving forward forget about it

Maybe? Maybe not? I think the key thing is not to stretch yourself.

The size of your borrowing may have more to do with your likelihood of survival than the size of your herd.

I'd wait and see. Just remember. If you install a robot. A big part of the cost is the installation. So if you decide to get out in a year or two. You're going to take a big hit on the value of it. This is a long term commitment. Dairying at the moment isn't the licence to print money some would have you believe. I'm not trying to pour cold water over your dream, but it's a very uncertain time in dairying. I'd definitely wait a year or two before I'd make up my mind if I were you.

djmc

I will just add that dairying is a full time job and it would be hard to hold down another job and do it right especially around calving time and even summer time will be busy with grass management slurry silage.
It's not a job for ageing parents either as its probably more labor demanding than any other type of farming.

farmerman

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Op what state is the land in? Was tillage land well looked after? I'd strongly urge you not to stock at 3.7 day 1. You won't be able to grow the grass imo. Build up the stocking rate from 2.6 over a few yrs when you grow the grass.

We're nearly into our 13th yr here after we bought and turned a tillage farm that was rented out and turned it into dairying. Only last 3 yrs were growing proper grass and we'll be at 2.6 cows/ha for the coming season and my parents had 30 yrs of dairy farming under there belts

Hi greengrasss I understand where your coming from fully as I've always wondered about the ability to grow grass given that most of the farm has been in continuous spring barley for 20 years or more, but in recent years I've began to convince my father to rotate crops more with beans and wholecrop silage being sown and grass fields being rotated. We also for the last5 years have been sowing cover crops in the winter to help soil structure and also OM content. I would be sceptical to the difference these would've made to the ground though in such a short time. As regards soil levels we'd be index 2 for both P& K.
Also just in regards profitability I see a lot of figures thrown around of people making between 500-700 profit per cow, given that your a dairy farmer would you agree with these figures or are they over inflated and blow out of proportion?? Regards

kowtow

I suppose what would concern me is that robot or not in a small herd you are always going to need to maximise milk sale value / animal value to make any sense of fixed costs.

And however you do that, from milk solids to niche products to pedigree breeding.... it's unlikely to be a part time operation if it is to succeed.

Selling commodity milk and hoping to expand in due course is one approach but with high initial and maintenance costs I can't see it leaving enough to be worth expanding.

farmerman

kowtow wrote: »

I suppose what would concern me is that robot or not in a small herd you are always going to need to maximise milk sale value / animal value to make any sense of fixed costs.

And however you do that, from milk solids to niche products to pedigree breeding.... it's unlikely to be a part time operation if it is to succeed.

Selling commodity milk and hoping to expand in due course is one approach but with high initial and maintenance costs I can't see it leaving enough to be worth expanding.

As a second income to supplement my job would you not see it as viable given the fact that I wouldn't be relying on this as my sole wage?

stretch film

farmerman wrote: »

As a second income to supplement my job would you not see it as viable given the fact that I wouldn't be relying on this as my sole wage?

you forgot to pay the folks!!!!!

kowtow

farmerman wrote:

As a second income to supplement my job would you not see it as viable given the fact that I wouldn't be relying on this as my sole wage?

Whether or not you have an external income doesn't make a jot of difference to the economic viability of your dairy farm in the strict sense.

If you are using your present income to fund the growth of a dairy farm in anticipation if it becoming a full time operation that's a slightly different thing... either way front loaded Costs like robots would make me nervous.

Successful dairy farming in my experience tends to be something of a vocation... be careful that you are not developing a very expensive hobby indeed.

Farmer Ed

farmerman wrote: »

Hi greengrasss I understand where your coming from fully as I've always wondered about the ability to grow grass given that most of the farm has been in continuous spring barley for 20 years or more, but in recent years I've began to convince my father to rotate crops more with beans and wholecrop silage being sown and grass fields being rotated. We also for the last5 years have been sowing cover crops in the winter to help soil structure and also OM content. I would be sceptical to the difference these would've made to the ground though in such a short time. As regards soil levels we'd be index 2 for both P& K.
Also just in regards profitability I see a lot of figures thrown around of people making between 500-700 profit per cow, given that your a dairy farmer would you agree with these figures or are they over inflated and blow out of proportion?? Regards

Human nature being human nature. few people want to be the worst farmer in the discussion group. Profit per cow will depend on a lot of things of course but milk price is a huge factor at the moment. I don't know but I think it would take a very clever person to predict with certainty what profit will be going forward.
There has been a lot of speculation about us all getting rich feeding Chinese babies. There are so many other factors at play I'm convinced that's all it is just speculation. There may well yet be a silver lining to this yet. But I certainly would be adapting a wait and see approach. Maybe rear some heifers and make up your mind when they are nearly ready to be milked? Could also be a good way of testing how much grass the place can grow.

ganmo

Find a meal rep and ask them what's their busy & quiet times
Then think of the busy times on dairy farms.
You'll be limiting your career hugely if you're tied to a dairy farm

farmerman

stretch film wrote: »

you forgot to pay the folks!!!!!

That could be the hardest paid bill of the whole lot!!!!! I'd still like to think though that given what we're making now on the farm ( very little if any ) that between myself and the parents we'd make more at the bit of dairy even though it obviously won't be a fortune, but between there wages and my own wage that it'd top them up.

farmerman

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Human nature being human nature. few people want to be the worst farmer in the discussion group. Profit per cow will depend on a lot of things of course but milk price is a huge factor at the moment. I don't know but I think it would take a very clever person to predict with certainty what profit will be going forward.
There has been a lot of speculation about us all getting rich feeding Chinese babies. There are so many other factors at play I'm convinced that's all it is just speculation. There may well yet be a silver lining to this yet. But I certainly would be adapting a wait and see approach. Maybe rear some heifers and make up your mind when they are nearly ready to be milked? Could also be a good way of testing how much grass the place can grow.

I had also though of contract heifers rearing as a start of venture with the aim depending on how it goes to transition to dairying after a few years. I have a field reseeded last autumn form continuous tillage which I am going to start measuring grass growth on this year to hopefully give myself a rough idea of what capability the farm has to grown grass. But given the fact it's good land I suspect that if I had P&k levels right and raise OM a bit that it would have good potential. Dairy farmers around me have told me that they are growing anywhere in the range of 12 - 14 DM/ha. So the land certainly has the potential to get it out of it is the main thing.

Farmer Ed

farmerman wrote: »

I had also though of contract heifers rearing as a start of venture with the aim depending on how it goes to transition to dairying after a few years. I have a field reseeded last autumn form continuous tillage which I am going to start measuring grass growth on this year to hopefully give myself a rough idea of what capability the farm has to grown grass. But given the fact it's good land I suspect that if I had P&k levels right and raise OM a bit that it would have good potential. Dairy farmers around me have told me that they are growing anywhere in the range of 12 - 14 DM/ha. So the land certainly has the potential to get it out of it is the main thing.

It could be a great way of dipping your toe in the water.

alps

farmerman wrote: »

Hi greengrasss I understand where your coming from fully as I've always wondered about the ability to grow grass given that most of the farm has been in continuous spring barley for 20 years or more, but in recent years I've began to convince my father to rotate crops more with beans and wholecrop silage being sown and grass fields being rotated. We also for the last5 years have been sowing cover crops in the winter to help soil structure and also OM content. I would be sceptical to the difference these would've made to the ground though in such a short time. As regards soil levels we'd be index 2 for both P& K.
Also just in regards profitability I see a lot of figures thrown around of people making between 500-700 profit per cow, given that your a dairy farmer would you agree with these figures or are they over inflated and blow out of proportion?? Regards

Your profitability figures are correct and are underestimated for a good efficient operation. However straight off, the system you propose will set you back up to 6,000 per cow to initiate, and that won't be viable.

I would believe that you will need to give commitment time and effort to your job to make the very best of it, to get results for yourself and for your employers. Tipping off to look after small issues at home just won't cut it with most employers, especially in a sales environment. You will need to be consistent with your time and effort and cannot be sure of that with a robot.

It's obvious that you have a serious interest in milking cows, and I'm sure there are many ways that you can achieve that. Have you given any thought to a full time career in Dairy farming? Your interest and educational background would give you a distinct advantage over most. Your home Farm could be a back up to a rented platform with existing facilities. Are you really interested in a job?

tractorporn

Farmer Ed wrote:

It could be a great way of dipping your toe in the water.

+1

Contract rearing could be a good way of getting yourself set up, and by that I mean you could start working, have stock and experience built up, have some capital for investment and most importantly have figured out if working and milking was a feasible option.

If you have a good working relationship built up with your employer over a few years they may allow you to drop to a 3 day week, not many would be that flexible from day one of working.

Farmer Ed

If milk price is to improve significantly and stay at sustainably high levels then maybe you might have a shot at making a go of it. But some Co Ops are privately predicting lows of 22c this year. Not much money in that for a full time farmers renting land at 300 per acre.

I did a business course a while back the lecturer gave us an example of two types of businesses. Blue ocean businesses and red ocean business.

Blue ocean businesses were given as an example of businesses that have little competition and no sharks to attack you.
Red ocean businesses were given as a example of businesses that are very competitive and full of sharks.

My own view is that competing for land at 300 per acre and producing milk that will be processed it to a commodity for sale on a very competitive world market, falls very much it to the model of a red ocean business..Proceed with caution.

Dawggone

Timmaay wrote: »

Unless you can milk 100+ moving forward forget about it

I nearly got my head blown off for saying that a couple of years ago.

Bass Reeves

Timmaay wrote: »

Unless you can milk 100+ moving forward forget about it

Not necessiarly. 70 cows is calculated to be the most efficient for a single labour unit above that you have to allow for external labour. A well run 60-80 cow herd will give a good living. Milk is unlike beef or Tillage in that as scale rises other factor come in to play faster as labour, production and skill become overriding factors.

It is taught that milk at about 23/24c/l is equivlent to drystock and a small tillage operation may be no better. A robotic unit milking 60 cows or slightly less may well be viable. I think they are grant funded at a low level. However if working capital allowances and farm losses are allowable against external income.

Biggest issue will be training cows first day to system after that on average about 10/year will need to be trained in. Would hybrid cows be better in this system. Cost you system off an average milk cost of 32c/L. If you parents are still young enough to give a hand it may well be a good time to start. Even if you fail the unit will have a second hand value maybe at 50% of it first day value.

Your land block is a bit small idealy 50 acres in one block would be minimum required and idealy 60. However if able to lease adjacent to you at an affordable rate then this may change the econimics in your favour. As other lads point out be slow to push stocking rates at the start. Usually with robot's high production cows are usually used to spread cost over more litres. In your case longterm maybe a low to mid production may be more viable giving less issues.

Is it viable with an average turn over of 1800/cow in a low cost operation.

Dawggone

Kilmac1 wrote: »

Put in a robot this year and you would need to be working close or be able to leave at anytime if something goes wrong and it isn't as easy as throw the robot in and let's the cows at it you need to spend time training the cows and watching them for aleast first few weeks

Hi Kilmac, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on robots.
Has scc remained the same as pre robots?


The 'big' question...can you head off for long weekends and trust the robots?

Farmer Ed

Dawggone wrote: »

Hi Kilmac, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on robots.
Has scc remained the same as pre robots?


The 'big' question...can you head off for long weekends and trust the robots?

Scc should be ok I haven't seen any difference. Some claim they have improved. As for long weekends you will still need someone on call.

Dawggone

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Scc should be ok I haven't seen any difference. Some claim they have improved. As for long weekends you will still need someone on call.

Have you robots?

Sam Kade

Why do new entrants have to jump in at the deep end? You'd want a wagon load of money stashed away to start from scratch to build up a dairy herd or else a very friendly bank manager.

ganmo

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why do new entrants have to jump in at the deep end? You'd want a wagon load of money stashed away to start from scratch to build up a dairy herd or else a very friendly bank manager.

haven't you heard, they're 'backing brave'

Farmer Ed

Dawggone wrote: »

Have you robots?

Maybe? But I wouldn't be bosting too much about it on here. Their rare enough yet around these parts yet. Let's say I do have a fair bit of experience with them yes. First year is the hardest and maintenance cost are a bit higher than a basic milking parlour. But alarm calls seem to be getting fewer and farther between as both farmer and the robot manufacturer learn to iron out avoidable problems.

Dawggone

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why do new entrants have to jump in at the deep end? You'd want a wagon load of money stashed away to start from scratch to build up a dairy herd or else a very friendly bank manager.

Talking to an uncle of mine over the Xmas and he was thinking the same. He reckons that it's a hangover from the tiger years...everyone wanted a new house but it had to be turnkey...move in and cut the lawn!