The problem of childhood trauma

whatismyname

A bit of a heavy topic, but bear with me

I shared this video over on the depression thread a few days back, but thought it was worth a share more generally, as it applies to much more than just people with depression.

Well worth a watch.

Basically in her Ted Talk, Liz Mullinar is looking at the impact of childhood trauma.

That a large percentage of people with serious mental illness experienced childhood trauma. But that we aren't been encouraged to talk about childhood trauma, that we aren't encouraged to heal from it.

That much work is done in suicide prevention, yet despite so many of those who attempt suicide having experienced childhood trauma, do we see any any suicide prevention programmes encouraging people to talk about what happened to them as children?

The video cover more than that but a key focus of it is to get us talking more about the issue of childhood trauma and the impact of it.

Not sure what others think of it, but I'm definitely inclined to agree with the message of the video.

Childhood trauma can be lots of things. Yes sexual abuse, but also childhood neglect, physical abuse, emotional abuse, alcoholic parent etc, and these things do have an impact.

Lots on here will have experienced some of these issues and been impacted. I know I have. I've often had the message of 'it's in the past, put it to one side, and just get on with your life'. From lay people, but from mental health professionals too. But it's not that simple. It impacted on me, and I want to deal with it.

Not everyone will be the same. Some who've experienced childhood trauma will want to just bury it in the past, find themselves able to put it to one side and just get on with their lives, and that's god. But if, like me, you need to deal with it, that's ok too. If you have been affected, and know you need to heal from the effects, and want to do so, it's ok.

More generally I wish we had a society where people felt more able to talk about childhood trauma. It happens in all walks of life, and we'll know many who have been affected. That people felt more able to say 'yeah I had a sh1t childhood, and it really affected me'. That it was more ok to say that.

But many will be ashamed of what has happened to them. There shouldn't be shame.

It's a very difficult subject to face, but I do think that if we could all be a bit more open to talking about childhood trauma that things would be a bit better all round.

I've been on a few different threads at different points on here where people talked about their childhood abuse, and 'met' fantastic survivors. It's remarkable the things people experience and live with. But if that's you, it's ok to be affected and to acknowledge it, and to heal from it. And excuse my cheesiness but I think you're amazing for every day that you live with that you've experienced.

I hope this is ok to share and I hope that the post / video helps a few

Fleawuss

I've gone off these TED talks as it seems you get a certain stamp of authority by being miked up, doing a Steve Jobs on it, throw in a few paradoxes and a bit of counter intuitive stuff and well, Teds your uncle.

So I'm not going to look at it. What you wrote I like: there are things that happen to us and don't want to go away but what has helped me is deciding that I can reinvent myself. It's silly but Madonna gave me the idea. Things happened to one version of me and I have to find a way to deal with them to become a new me. And above all, acceptance. There's no rewind on life but there is moving forward. And you're right, talking about it has to be "allowed" because there is no perfect childhood, only different versions of imperfect.

whatismyname

Fleawuss wrote: »

I've gone off these TED talks as it seems you get a certain stamp of authority by being miked up, doing a Steve Jobs on it, throw in a few paradoxes and a bit of counter intuitive stuff and well, Teds your uncle.

So I'm not going to look at it. What you wrote I like: there are things that happen to us and don't want to go away but what has helped me is deciding that I can reinvent myself. It's silly but Madonna gave me the idea. Things happened to one version of me and I have to find a way to deal with them to become a new me. And above all, acceptance. There's no rewind on life but there is moving forward. And you're right, talking about it has to be "allowed" because there is no perfect childhood, only different versions of imperfect.

Can see what you mean about Ted Talks. This one speaks volumes to me hence sharing, but can completely see where you are coming from.

And I like the idea of different versions of imperfect.

Spanish Eyes

I know someone in their late 60s now who is still traumatised by the way he was treated as a kid by his father and schoolmasters. Not sexually abused but verbally and physically and emotionally. Very badly by the sounds of it.

He is from the country, and anyone he has spoken to of his own vintage from his childhood days recount similar. I don't know, was the male parent/teacher frustrated or full of power or what.

It is awful to listen to, imagine nearly 60 years later it is still there and traumatising. I don't know what to do except listen, because all the perpetrators are dead now. I cannot imagine.

Still, the instinct in me is to say "move on", but I don't. I really don't know what to say really. It is horrible the things that were described.

whatismyname

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I know someone in their late 60s now who is still traumatised by the way he was treated as a kid by his father and schoolmasters. Not sexually abused but verbally and physically and emotionally. Very badly by the sounds of it.

He is from the country, and anyone he has spoken to of his own vintage from his childhood days recount similar. I don't know, was the male parent/teacher frustrated or full of power or what.

It is awful to listen to, imagine nearly 60 years later it is still there and traumatising. I don't know what to do except listen, because all the perpetrators are dead now. I cannot imagine.

Still, the instinct in me is to say "move on", but I don't. I really don't know what to say really. It is horrible the things that were described.

In terms of not knowing what to do except listening, never underestimate quite what a difference that can make.

Although instinct can be to say 'move on', I know you will know that it's not that easy, and that its' hard to know what to say, but seriously you may just be making the world of difference through being there for him.

Spanish Eyes

whatismyname wrote: »

In terms of not knowing what to do except listening, never underestimate quite what a difference that can make.

Although instinct can be to say 'move on', I know you will know that it's not that easy, and that its' hard to know what to say, but seriously you may just be making the world of difference through being there for him.

Thanks for that. This person is very dear to me. I just don't think he will ever get over it, and I can't help much. What is the answer?

He went to counselling but it didn't help him at all sadly. He says he felt he would be better off talking to the trees in the field.

Still, as you say, I can listen. That's all I can do, but I wish I could do more. The person is suffering from severe depression too. Surprise, surprise. Being treated chemically. But the side effects are not good.

It is a terrible thing to be mistreated and traumatised as a little innocent child.

PLL

As a victim of neglect, physical, mental and emotional abuse by my mother I can shed light on the difficulties people close to me have in understanding and relating.
My MIL was sexually abused by her uncle and talks about her husband and children (one of which is my fiancé) having what she calls a 'priviledged' childhood because they just don't get how years upon years later childhood trauma still affects you.

My dad had a drink problem when I was younger he nearly died when I was 4 and his brother and best friend was an alcoholic and depressed and committed suicide whilst my dad was very Ill for months in hospital - so my dad was very messed up and brought me to pubs with him when he looked after me (parents spilt when I was 3.

My fiancé finds it hard to understand why I can forgive my dad but not my mom. I haven't spoken to her since the day I left 6 years ago, I see my dad once a month and although I'm not very emotionally close to him, we both struggle with talking about our problems, he is very good to me in the sense he helps me in a very dad kind of way e.g. bringing me coal and oil :-)

The reason for speaking to my dad and not my mom despite both being bad parents (which my dad will tell you himself, my mom thinks she is amazing,I personally think she has some sort of psychological superior disorder) is simply this. My dad never did anything to intentionally hurt me. Ever. He always encouraged me, would cry and tell me how sorry he was for being a bad dad, he is lovely man with issues he never resolved and drank them away instead. He isn't as bad now, lives a normal life, generally drinks normally with the odd binge when his feeling down. My mother's actions I can't even begin to describe. Lets put it this way, I'm a mother Now to a 4 year old girl, and when I go to check on her before I go to sleep. Sometimes I stare at her and then go sit on my bed and sob that my mother didn't protect me in the way I would protect my daughter. No amount of councillors will make me understand that. All those moments in my childhood where I yearned for love and support I cannot wait to be there for my daughter, I cannot wait for her to feel I'll always be there. I never want her to know this pain. No child should ever have to know this pain.

Sorry for the long story there,I just don't very often get the chance to explain the story to people who might understand. I honestly think everyone I tell thinks I'm exaggarating because they cannot comprehend how what I'm saying could be true.

Would like to hear some other stories if anyone else would like to share or email if you would like. Feel free to PM.

eviltwin

The impact of childhood trauma can be huge. It's much harder to overcome than adult trauma because it can completely affect your development. I suffered trauma as a child and I'm doing okay but in many ways I'm like a broken cup that's been repaired. I will never be the way I should be although I function well enough. Therapy helps but nothing can undo that kind of damage.

pickarooney

I don't know if talking actually achieves anything itself. It's probably just my personality but talking about a problem and not finding a way to 'fix' it frustrates the hell out of me and even more so when someone tells me about a problem that I can do nothing to solve.

I'd be more inclined to believe that reinventing yourself or taking control of the rest of your life is the way to heal rather than wallowing in the past.

I don't mean to sound callous; I just have a practical mindset I suppose.

whatismyname

eviltwin wrote: »

The impact of childhood trauma can be huge. It's much harder to overcome than adult trauma because it can completely affect your development.

Absolutely agree. Which makes it so hard when people are just saying 'oh just put it in the past', 'just don't think about it etc'.

Regardless of whether you're even consciously thinking about it, it can still have affected your development in a really big way.

whatismyname

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't know if talking actually achieves anything itself. It's probably just my personality but talking about a problem and not finding a way to 'fix' it frustrates the hell out of me and even more so when someone tells me about a problem that I can do nothing to solve.

I'd be more inclined to believe that reinventing yourself or taking control of the rest of your life is the way to heal rather than wallowing in the past.

I don't mean to sound callous; I just have a practical mindset I suppose.

Yep, I'm definitely not suggesting wallowing in the past, something very different.

Not just talking about it for the sake of it, and talking about the facts of it, but processing the emotions and pain behind it, and resolving some of that pain so it decreases and has less of an impact on your life.

Because for many they can reinvent themselves all they like but that pain will still be there, affecting them, it doesn't just go away through reinvention.

Everyone's different though of course. Reinvention may work for some, but for many others the pain needs to be worked through and processed in order to heal from it in whatever way they can.

pickarooney

I'd be really need interested to understand the process of working through the trauma. How do you avoid triggering the anxiety, doubt and fear and kicking off a new cycle?

whatismyname

PLL wrote: »

Sorry for the long story there,I just don't very often get the chance to explain the story to people who might understand. I honestly think everyone I tell thinks I'm exaggarating because they cannot comprehend how what I'm saying could be true.

Hey PLL, I can empathise with a lot of what you wrote there, particularly the pain of your mother failing to protect you.

I hope it helped a little to share. Oh and I believe you, and that you are not exaggerating.

Joey Jo-Jo Junior

I was fairly stoic about my childhood up until recently when the memories started getting a little overwhelming. I've been thinking of therapy but I'm a little nervous about it. No one knows the worst of it and it would be my first time talking about it.

I can't even move on because I'm still living some of it.

eviltwin wrote: »

in many ways I'm like a broken cup that's been repaired. I will never be the way I should be although I function well enough.

That's exactly how I feel.

whatismyname

Joey Jo-Jo Junior wrote: »

I was fairly stoic about my childhood up until recently when the memories started getting a little overwhelming. I've been thinking of therapy but I'm a little nervous about it. No one knows the worst of it and it would be my first time talking about it.

I can't even move on because I'm still living some of it.

That's exactly how I feel.

That sounds really difficult Joey. And regards therapy I think one of the really difficult things is that only you can know whether you're ready to go to there etc. It's very natural to be nervous about it though, and I hope that you are able to figure out the best decision for you.

Memories being overwhelming can be very hard. I hope that you are able to pull back from them somewhat when needed, and that they get a little easier to deal witih.

caille

Great post, OP, and great comments above. All I can add is that I have tried so many different things to forget stuff that happened to me and in the end, the ONLY thing that has worked for me has been to accept it happened and try my hardest to be happy.

Looking after myself, physically, emotionally and mentally has been key to me trying too move on. I say 'trying' because I have accepted long ago that I will never be completely ok, but I am a lot lot better than I used to be. All anyone can ever do for someone is just be there for them and listen. My husband is great, that way, he just listens and never says, move on. He does say, that is past, you are good here right now, with me, and I know he is right.

whatismyname

caille wrote: »

Great post, OP, and great comments above. All I can add is that I have tried so many different things to forget stuff that happened to me and in the end, the ONLY thing that has worked for me has been to accept it happened and try my hardest to be happy.

I think that sounds like a very sensbile approach Caille.

caille wrote: »

Looking after myself, physically, emotionally and mentally has been key to me trying too move on. I say 'trying' because I have accepted long ago that I will never be completely ok, but I am a lot lot better than I used to be. All anyone can ever do for someone is just be there for them and listen. My husband is great, that way, he just listens and never says, move on. He does say, that is past, you are good here right now, with me, and I know he is right.

Your husband sounds like a gem. I'm glad you have him

ceadaoin.

Early childhood trauma and neglect, especially as an infant, actually affects how the brain develops. For many of these people it's not possible to just let it go and move on and live a normal life, they are already at a severe disadvantage and it takes a lot of work to come back from that.

Even 'lower level' abuse leaves deep emotional scars. It's terrible, I can't fathom how anyone could treat children that way.

eviltwin

For me what helps is owning what happened, accepting its part of me but not letting it define me. I've been lucky enough to use my past as a way of helping others in my work and that gives me some kind of satisfaction that the hurt has been used to create healing. I'd definitely recommend therapy or even just peer support. Be the solution, not the problem.

mohawk

PLL wrote: »

As a victim of neglect, physical, mental and emotional abuse by my mother I can shed light on the difficulties people close to me have in understanding and relating.

Would like to hear some other stories if anyone else would like to share or email if you would like. Feel free to PM.

I could have written some of that post myself. I found after having my son my attitude completely hardened towards her. Now I cannot fathom how she never once tried to protect me when I needed her. She was a single mother with me and then went on to have my siblings with a violent drunk. I do worry about my sister who is a very, very angry person. I try to be there for her but we aren't as close as we could have been. Sometimes when you grow up in a dysfunctional clusterfcuk you find you need to look after yourself and don't have the emotional energy to leave look after others.

I haven't really spoken with others about it. No one really wants to hear it and so eith work colleagues etc you tell white lies or gloss over questions. Like when people say oh your son is the only Grandchild he must be spoiled. I end up saying yeah sure instead of no actually he has only met her twice in his 6 years. Cos who likes awkwardness.

Which leads me to the biggest consequence of having a childhood such as mine. Opening up to people and letting them know the real me. When your own mother doesn't love you It can make you feel that you don't deserve love.

Very good friend spent a fortune on counselling for her own crap told me the biggest thing that helped her was to imagine a meeting between yourself now and your child self. What would you say and do? - It's not your fault and a hug.
It was a real turning point for me.

whatismyname

For anyone who struggles with flashbacks / overwhelming memories etc, there's a good guide to grounding at https://www.e-tmf.org/downloads/Grounding_Techniques.pdf

Anyone else got any good resources worth sharing?

caille

Yes, I have used Paul McKenna's Havening technique, its on DVD to buy or can be downloaded. He developed it as a result of dealing with survivors of war who were suffering extreme PTSD and then realised that it could also be used by survivors of most traumas. He argues that the effect on the body and mind of such traumas is so deep and engrained that something hypnotic like the Havening technique (which you do on yourself) changes brain chemistry and the brains perception of traumatic events so that in the end, while they still exist, they don't have the same effect on you. I have used it, it needs to be kept up (once a week once the initial programme is done) and it has greatly helped me. It's like you can view the traumas through the long end of a stetoscope, they seem more distant and far away, like their effect is muted.

Hope this might help someone, I got the DVD as part of one of his books.

whatismyname

caille wrote: »

Yes, I have used Paul McKenna's Havening technique, its on DVD to buy or can be downloaded. He developed it as a result of dealing with survivors of war who were suffering extreme PTSD and then realised that it could also be used by survivors of most traumas. He argues that the effect on the body and mind of such traumas is so deep and engrained that something hypnotic like the Havening technique (which you do on yourself) changes brain chemistry and the brains perception of traumatic events so that in the end, while they still exist, they don't have the same effect on you. I have used it, it needs to be kept up (once a week once the initial programme is done) and it has greatly helped me. It's like you can view the traumas through the long end of a stetoscope, they seem more distant and far away, like their effect is muted.

Hope this might help someone, I got the DVD as part of one of his books.

Thanks Caille. .I don't really have any professional support right now, so focusing on self-help stuff, and this sounds worth checking out, cheers.

caille

You're welcome, mind yourself (and I mean that literally as in eating well, sleeping, taking joy in small things) :-)

HalloweenJack

Personally, I've just accepted what happened to me and I've moved beyond it. I refuse to let it define me.

It used to trouble me for a long time as I didn't understand what had happened and I don't remember the exact events clearly. This lead to me doubting if that stuff really happened, maybe I was making it up for attnetion. I convinced myself that if it had happened to me, I would remember it vividly as it would have been so traumatic but still I felt anxious about it as it's an issue that really upset me.

However, having listened to other people's stories and as I've grown to understand myself better, I've realised that my instincts were right and that my anxiety was there for a reason. I know it happened to me. I may not remember the exact details, and I don't particularly want to, but I'm certain it happened.

Realising that actually made me more relaxed, it removed all the doubt. I'm not confused anymore, I'm not angry, I don't want pity, I just want to live my life.

I've accepted it, it wasn't my fault, there's nothing I could have done about it and, most importantly for me, I won't let it define who I am. I don't want people to see me as a victim, I want people to see me as me. The trauma isn't who I am, it's just one of millions of experiences that's made me the person I am.

That's how I've responded and dealt with it.

madmaggie

Do parents realise the long term harm they do? I say I am who I am not because of my parents, but despite them. Both my parents despised each other, and each saw in me part of the other person. I know now that this was their problem, not mine. It takes a long time to find your true self, but it can be done.

RoadhouseBlues

Both my parents are gone now. Never really got over one. But the other I don't miss at all. That may seem horrible to some people but its a fact. There are a few of us in the family. Me being the youngest. For me it was emotional rubbish growing up. For the others it was beatings. I think I got away with the physical because I was the youngest. I don't know really. I often do ask some of them was it a mental issue with parent that was doing it. Cos they seemed to go out of their way to do it. It was very strange. I can absolutely tell you though, that we are all messed up in our own way. I'm sure though there are other families who had it worse than us too.

R.D. aka MR.D

It's great to talk about it and put it out there. I've always advocated telling people that my father is an alcoholic because especially here in Ireland, so many people have been through the same thing but are ashamed to just say it.

Unfortunately, an alcoholic father is the least of my past. My mother is mentally ill and it really resonates with me when the posters above talk about how they can't imagine how their mother could let that happen to them.

Anyways, in the past 5-6 years years, I've made great leaps and bounds in dealing with the legacy of my past.

Something that I think is key is accepting that you will never have a good childhood. Feeling sorry for yourself is pointless.

Secondly, once you are 18, you are an adult. Everything you do is a choice. Having an abusive childhood is a reason but not an excuse for destructive behaviour. You are the one responsible for taking your life down a positive path and you definitely have a choice if you are going to carry that on to another child and damage them.

Next, life isn't fair. There is no point in being angry. Play the hand you're dealt.


Overall, for me the word 'choice' looms the largest. I didn't choose to be born. I didn't choose to be in an abusive environment. I have choices now. I'm always going to be at a disadvantage from people who had a supportive, loving background so the choices I need to make have to be positive ones.

It's the number one message that I would give to a 16/17 year old dealing with a difficult situation. Choose to rise above it. Even if you have a few false starts because you don;t have support or any idea what normal is, keep trying.

pheasant tail

whatismyname wrote: »

For anyone who struggles with flashbacks / overwhelming memories etc, there's a good guide to grounding at https://www.e-tmf.org/downloads/Grounding_Techniques.pdf

Anyone else got any good resources worth sharing?

I found that EMDR treatment definetly helped me a bit, it's about processing memories in your mind, I'd post a link to it but I'm on the phone. But as someone mentioned earlier, you really just have to accept it and look forward. Radically Accept it. I had no control when I was a child and can't change what happened. But id like to think I am in control now and learning to change my future, even if it's not the path I would have taken if circumstances had been different at such a crucial young age

Azalea

It's awful that so many people even on this thread alone have had traumatic childhoods. I hate that there are so many adults out there who let children close to them suffer.

PLL

PLL wrote: »

As a victim of neglect, physical, mental and emotional abuse by my mother I can shed light on the difficulties people close to me have in understanding and relating.
My MIL was sexually abused by her uncle and talks about her husband and children (one of which is my fiancé) having what she calls a 'priviledged' childhood because they just don't get how years upon years later childhood trauma still affects you.

My dad had a drink problem when I was younger he nearly died when I was 4 and his brother and best friend was an alcoholic and depressed and committed suicide whilst my dad was very Ill for months in hospital - so my dad was very messed up and brought me to pubs with him when he looked after me (parents spilt when I was 3.

My fiancé finds it hard to understand why I can forgive my dad but not my mom. I haven't spoken to her since the day I left 6 years ago, I see my dad once a month and although I'm not very emotionally close to him, we both struggle with talking about our problems, he is very good to me in the sense he helps me in a very dad kind of way e.g. bringing me coal and oil :-)

The reason for speaking to my dad and not my mom despite both being bad parents (which my dad will tell you himself, my mom thinks she is amazing,I personally think she has some sort of psychological superior disorder) is simply this. My dad never did anything to intentionally hurt me. Ever. He always encouraged me, would cry and tell me how sorry he was for being a bad dad, he is lovely man with issues he never resolved and drank them away instead. He isn't as bad now, lives a normal life, generally drinks normally with the odd binge when his feeling down. My mother's actions I can't even begin to describe. Lets put it this way, I'm a mother Now to a 4 year old girl, and when I go to check on her before I go to sleep. Sometimes I stare at her and then go sit on my bed and sob that my mother didn't protect me in the way I would protect my daughter. No amount of councillors will make me understand that. All those moments in my childhood where I yearned for love and support I cannot wait to be there for my daughter, I cannot wait for her to feel I'll always be there. I never want her to know this pain. No child should ever have to know this pain.

Sorry for the long story there,I just don't very often get the chance to explain the story to people who might understand. I honestly think everyone I tell thinks I'm exaggarating because they cannot comprehend how what I'm saying could be true.

Would like to hear some other stories if anyone else would like to share or email if you would like. Feel free to PM.

I think you are being very hard on your mother. Maybe you need counselling.
You are basically blaming your mother for being a ' bad' mother but totally excusing your father, even though he was a ' bad' parent too.
He is excused because he's a drinker.
How hard did your mother have it?
I'm not saying blame your dad, but maybe you could try to understand your mothers problems more.

Azalea

bubblypop wrote: »

I think you are being very hard on your mother. Maybe you need counselling.
You are basically blaming your mother for being a ' bad' mother but totally excusing your father, even though he was a ' bad' parent too.
He is excused because he's a drinker.
How hard did your mother have it?
I'm not saying blame your dad, but maybe you could try to understand your mothers problems more.

This is what you say to someone who says she was neglected and physically and emotionally abused by her mother? Are you for real?

She fully explained why she's more forgiving of her father - it's not just that he had a drink problem.

Azalea

Azalea wrote: »

This is what you say to someone who says she was neglected and physically and emotionally abused by her mother? Are you for real?

She fully explained why she's more forgiving of her father - it's not just that he had a drink problem.

She didn't say what her mother did, as an outsider reading in, she has given her father excuses because he seems like a pathetic drunk.
I don't know what her mother did, no one of us do, but neither do we know the hardships her mother had, and maybe some of it was due to her father's drinking.
I don't know if her mother had any issues, she didn't say. But maybe, just maybe, there are more issues for her to work through properly

R.D. aka MR.D

bubblypop wrote: »

She didn't say what her mother did, as an outsider reading in, she has given her father excuses because he seems like a pathetic drunk.
I don't know what her mother did, no one of us do, but neither do we know the hardships her mother had, and maybe some of it was due to her father's drinking.
I don't know if her mother had any issues, she didn't say. But maybe, just maybe, there are more issues for her to work through properly

Her mother choose to have children, I assume, although I suppose in Ireland, it might not have been the case but I highly doubt anyone held a gun to her head.

So what does the mother's hardships matter in dishing out sympathy? The poster didn't choose to be born. The father probably had hardships as well if he ended up an alcoholic but again, the choice was made to become a father.

It's totally up to the poster to make the choice to forgive.

whatismyname

bubblypop wrote: »

She didn't say what her mother did, as an outsider reading in, she has given her father excuses because he seems like a pathetic drunk.
I don't know what her mother did, no one of us do, but neither do we know the hardships her mother had, and maybe some of it was due to her father's drinking.
I don't know if her mother had any issues, she didn't say. But maybe, just maybe, there are more issues for her to work through properly

Her mother neglected and physically and emotionally abused her. Whatever that entails we do not need to know. It's bad no matter what it entails.

Yes, her mother almost certainly had issues. Yes, her father's drinking may have played a part.

But nothing will ever excuse a mother neglecting and emotionally and physically abusing their child.

And it is not for us to judge the poster for blaming her mother or for 'giving her mother a hard time', or not trying to understand her mother's problems more.

The poster's experience and pain is theirs and it is theirs to handle however they do, and it will never be any other person's to pass judgement on.

Internet Ham

This topic is firmly in my wheelhouse.

At the risk of pulling a Fargo on it ''This is a true story''.

My parents shuffled off the mortal coil when I was five. They were both alcoholics and probably drug addicts. They left me and my five month old brother in the care of our alcoholic and very sick grandparents where I remained for a year. Neglect was the order of the day as was abuse that I am physically reminded of on a daily basis. This might sound terrible. It was. But it got worse.

We were fostered by a relative and his wife both of whom were high functioning alcoholics (They would disagree but when your shed looks like an off licence stock room and you are knocking back three bottles of wine almost every evening, I think there might be an issue).

The problem was not the drinking itself and externally the family had an excellent appearance but behind closed doors things were not so rosy. We were well dressed, new car every couple of years. A suburban ideal almost.

Behind closed doors things got weird. The foster parents had tempers. Tempers that they weren't shy in unleashing occasionally. I have been punched and kicked more times by them then I can remember. I was hit with a belt more occasions than I can remember, had teeth knocked out, given black eyes (first time I encountered the old walked into a door excuse). My brother has been knocked unconscious by the foster father for being drunk - at seventeen. Name calling was an almost daily occurence. It wasn't just name calling, it had malice behind it. Venom.

Hearing that you were not wanted when you were a five year old and that no one loves you and that you are hated is a tough thing to hear and does quite a bit of damage. Hearing it from your surrogate mother is quite a different level of pain and anguish.

I could perhaps understand if I was a bad kid. I was top of my class in school, didn't go out drinking, never smoked and was never in trouble with the law. I was hard work as a young child at first and my behaviour was poor but improved dramatically with a little work. They were just not equipped to be parents.

I am twenty four now, jobless with extreme social anxiety, I am afraid of crowds, extremely fearful and apprehensive of anywhere people are drunk and have an active dislike for drunk people. I struggle to find motivation to do anything I have found life to be a deeply unpleasant experience for the most part. Considering the damage that could have been done, I have come out of it better than I really should have. I have a strong mind and I think this helped. My brother on the other hand is not so well equipped and seems to have acquired our parents predilection for substance abuse. He has not coped well.

We are both extremely ****ed up.

If you have parents who love you, ring them up and say thank you. It is something I can't do but am extremely envious of.

RDM_83 again

Internet Ham wrote: »

If you have parents who love you, ring them up and say thank you. It is something I can't do but am extremely envious of.

Thats very true, not being gloating but whenever I read this sort of stuff makes me appreciate my own parents.

FortySeven

I suffered severe abuse as a child. It defined my life from the moment I was taken into state care at 11. I became first a drug addict. A criminal and later an alcoholic. I beat all these things one by one and thought I had gone the distance and finally put my issues behind me.
In the past 3 months I have lost my children, my partner, my job, probably my house and my will to live. I have just started on lithium. I have nothing left and it came out of nowhere. A depression to die for.
People who abuse children are the lowest of the low. I can't believe that my own kids are now from a broken home because of some actions my mother and father committed over 30 years ago.
I honestly wish I had died when I was a child. Staying alive so I don't hurt my own children is ****ing killing me.

hatrickpatrick

It can (and I really do stress *can*, not should or always will - I'm not belittling people who are suffering because of trauma, just pointing out that sometimes it can have bizarrely helpful effects in certain respects) be a positive thing. Certain patches of my childhood were pretty rough in terms of emotional bullying by adults, for reasons I won't get into here in case of doxxing, and I think those are part of the reason I have a lot of trust and paranoia / social anxiety issues (I don't really believe in psychology and labelling but from my own research I seem to straddle the fence between mild avoidant and mild borderline) - BUT, on the other hand, I also reckon they're what made me an inherently stubborn, defiant person who looks outside the established rules for solutions, believes in protesting and standing up for one's self (from personal interactions to political activity) and is generally a "rebel" if you like.

To give you one example, a couple of weeks back my new iPhone battery (replaced several months ago) started acting up and I took it back to the shop for a replacement, and they gave me the typical bullsh!t runaround aimed at somebody who doesn't understand technology, using entirely fabricated "here's what you did to break it" stuff to get me to go away. When I persisted, they then said "well we'll send it over to the workshop for a look but do you really want to hang around in town for two hours waiting for it?", to which I said f*ck yes I'm not going anywhere.

So two hours later I went back and they had switched to a more senior manager, after the first guy's tactics hadn't worked - and she started giving me all this "our seal isn't on it, this isn't one of our batteries and it's been tampered with inside" crap to get me to piss off. Essentially I just kept arguing with facts and refused to leave the shop until they gave decent counter arguments - at which point she said "screw it, you seem like a nice guy so I'll give you a replacement".

When they gave me back my original battery it was "bowed" (it had developed an arc) which means it had been overheating, so in other words it was indeed defective from day one. As I left and thanked them for the new one, the manager (who was American) remarked that she'd never met an Irish person who stood up for themselves like that at customer services and refused to get fobbed off. I found the comment highly racist

My point is though... I don't know which things are nature vs nurture, but I regard it as extremely likely that having to stand up for myself against some fairly f*cked up attitudes as a kid gave me my own very defiant attitude, and that's something which has served me incredibly well in my life. My lack of "needing approval" from people in authority (wherein I never cared about impressing teachers, adults etc) probably stems from the same place, and I can demonstrably see how that's had a gigantic positive impact on me emotionally. I know several people with much more messed up backgrounds than mine (involving immediate family for example) and yet they still want approval from those people, where I feel like if I was in their shoes I'd be able to say "f*ck it, I honestly don't care what ye think about me". I'm far more likely than most people I know, when faced with something like an administrative f*ck up in college over an exam timetable or something like that, to say "hang on, this basically violates the college rules, we should just go to them and tell them we're not accepting this". I've been involved in political protests and activism since I was 13, several movements of which were hugely successful, where a lot of my friends at that age used to say "why bother? We're powerless, the council will just do what they like regardless of our objections".

So tl;dr - sometimes things like being bullied and trauma from that, while it can give you a lot of emotional issues and anger problems, trust problems etc, can also benefit your personality in unexpected ways. Maybe I'm just a rare lucky one, but I can't help thinking of Johnny Cash's "Boy Names Sue" which essentially tried to deliver the same message.

Joey Jo-Jo Junior

madmaggie wrote: »

Do parents realise the long term harm they do?

I don't think most abusive parents realise the harm they do at the time, let alone the long term effects.

Azalea

bubblypop wrote: »

She didn't say what her mother did, as an outsider reading in, she has given her father excuses because he seems like a pathetic drunk.
I don't know what her mother did, no one of us do, but neither do we know the hardships her mother had, and maybe some of it was due to her father's drinking.
I don't know if her mother had any issues, she didn't say. But maybe, just maybe, there are more issues for her to work through properly

She didn't just give excuses for her father because he was an alcoholic, she did so because he wasn't cruel to her and he is remorseful. This can be clearly read.

It makes perfect sense that an abuse survivor would cling to any bit of tenderness from a parent - this is basic stuff.

We do know what her mother did, she said what she did. Sure, we don't know for absolute certain but you could say that about anything posted to Boards.
Whatever problems her mother had (no doubt she had problems) may explain, but do not excuse, being abusive to her child.

I think saying stuff like "You're being too hard on your mother... she may have had problems" while happily slating that poster's father, is extraordinary - and weirdly lacking in compassion.

I'm sure she knows more than anyone if she needs counselling - and may have been for sessions.

vagazzled

This thread has touched a nerve with me, especially as I'm jut after watching a documentary on Netflix on violence and suicide in teens/ adults as a result of childhood neglect or trauma. Permanent brain changes occur in babies and young children as a result of both neglect and abuse making them pre-disposed to depression, addictions, violence and suicidal behaviours.
I might regret posting this, but here goes.
I was born in St. Patricks Home in Dublin in the early 70's. I was adopted to a very middle class , middle aged childless professional couple a year later.
My Mother was a high level Medical professional, My Dad had a high ranking position in a State Co. My Mother was in her early 40's (my age- I'm done and dusted!) when she adopted me, my Dad 12 years older.
There was no badness in my Dad, he was a lovely man but failed to stand up to my Mothers rages. , my Mother wore the trousers and that was that. I was always mistaken for their grandchild, and wanted nothing more than a brother or sister and begged for one. We lived on a "nice" road where the only other kids were boys next door, older than me. But we'll get to that.
I was always told I was adopted, but not in the way you are supposed to. "Devil's spawn", "Like the woman who had you, common as muck", "Thats enough, you're going back to that bloody orphanage".
I never saw my parents kiss or hold hands. I felt sorry for my Dad. To some people I might sound like an ingrate. I had foreign holidays, clothes from the posh boutique in town, and meals in restaurants in the midst of a massive recession. The price was to put up with my Mothers anger. Most evenings ended with the leather strap, or the oversized wooden spoon or brush, both of which she broke across my back. When it came to education, she was ruthless. She wanted me to achieve big time academically. I was sent to the Grinds school in my spare time, moved school to a Private one in D4, 12 miles from my hometown, isolating me even more, and I chose to rebel with how I dressed and partying. I was "not allowed" hang around with children from Council estates.
I started experiencing abuse from a neighbour who had easy access to our house at aged 10. I instantly went from being a good student to one who acted out, and instead of A's got D's. I was brought to child psychs, one after the other, who always told my Mother things she didn't want to hear- and she would turn on the waterworks. I never could talk about the abuse till my 20's. I know if I had told her I would have got a slap across the face anyway.
This trauma of emotional , physical and sexual abuse has had a pretty big impact on my life. My Mother found I was pregnant when I had finished secondary, so I was moved into a bedsit my my Mother. I only spent 1 more night in that house, and I had t be in by 10.30pm (I was 25).

Addictions plagued me in my early 20's, and when I spent 2 years dealing with that the Mental Illness(es) appeared, although I remember first feeling that dark hopeless feeling of depression around 12. My childhood gave me PTSD and I'm on Disability and seeing a psych every month the last 18 years, my 30's were half-spent in psych wards. What really pisses me off is when people say or imply that I had some sort of golden spolied childhood. Ye, my folks had a nice house (which wasn't left to me, no surprises there!)

My Mother also excluded me from al my relatives by telling them not to ask about me, which I only found out recently after her death and felt quite upset about. . I re-connected with family at her funeral, and there has been a few more funerals since so I'm gradually re-connecting with my 'country family'. It's actually a really awkward and emotional process.
It's just the accident of birth, I guess. I could have been dragged up in the tenements equally. So I think of Philip Larkins -
This be the Verse
They **** you up, your mum and dad
They may not mean to, but they do
They fill you with the faults they have
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were ****ed up in their turn
By fools, in old-style hats and coats
Who half the time were surly-stern
And half down one-another's throats

Man hands on misery to man
It deepens like a coastal shelf
Get out as early as you can
And don't have any kids yourself."

whatismyname

Just wanted to say that although obviously I wish nobody had any trauma stories to share, thank you to those who did share. I hope it helped.

Azalea

Crikey Vagazzled and Internet Ham why on earth did that woman adopt? Not the first time I've heard of adoptive or foster parents being abusive to the children they choose to raise/home - is it to fulfill an abuse/control fantasy or what.

Neyite

Azalea wrote: »

Crikey Vagazzled and Internet Ham why on earth did that woman adopt? Not the first time I've heard of adoptive or foster parents being abusive to the children they choose to raise/home - is it to fulfill an abuse/control fantasy or what.

That was the trouble - they looked good on paper, nobody looked at their actual parenting skills. As long as they were affluent, and probably attended mass regularly, they were probably viewed as ideal candidates to adopt.

I look at my son who can drive me bonkers at times, and knowing all the love and affection children have to give I cannot fathom taking a belt or a cane to a tiny child like that. I cannot fathom what kind of evil is in people who pretend that level of violence and abuse is necessary or in any way justified.

To those of you who suffered, I wish I could hug you.

Internet Ham

Some weird parallels with vagazzled. Similar well to do type foster carers. I had holidays and nice things too. Similar educational pressure and a similar decline! :P

I always say I would have preferred not having a pot to piss in and felt loved than having quite a few luxuries in a sterile, loveless and abusive environment.

I am rather annoyed you thought of the Philip Larkin poem ahead of me! :P

StewartGriffin

whatismyname wrote: »

The poster's experience and pain is theirs and it is theirs to handle however they do, and it will never be any other person's to pass judgement on.

Azalea wrote: »

I think saying stuff like "You're being too hard on your mother... she may have had problems" while happily slating that poster's father, is extraordinary - and weirdly lacking in compassion.

Bubblypop wasn't passing judgement, he/she was making an observation from the facts provided. That is what internet forums like this are all about.

It is an unfortunate fact that if people insist on publishing personal problems on public message boards some replies may not be what the poster wants or needs to hear.

Azalea

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Bubblypop wasn't passing judgement, he/she was making an observation from the facts provided.

Bubblypop didn't pass judgment on that poster's father? How come their interpretation of the facts provided was to "favour" an abusive mother?

Yes Internet forums showcase opinions people might not like but I don't understand how that applies here. All it is is "you said your mother was abusive and your father was more loving but I'm going to interpret it as something else for the sake of it".

StewartGriffin

Azalea wrote: »

Bubblypop didn't pass judgment on that poster's father? How come their interpretation of the facts provided was to "favour" an abusive mother?

"Their interpretation of the facts provided." You have answered your own question

Different people, different childhoods, different lives, different interpretations.

eviltwin

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Bubblypop wasn't passing judgement, he/she was making an observation from the facts provided. That is what internet forums like this are all about.

It is an unfortunate fact that if people insist on publishing personal problems on public message boards some replies may not be what the poster wants or needs to hear.

This isn't the personal issues forum and the poster wasn't posting a problem, just an account of her experience. If posters want insight I'm sure they can ask for it. I don't think anyone here who has been mistreated needs to justify their feelings. I know in my case my parent had a lot of problems that affected her parenting but it doesn't make what happened to me any less traumatic and it doesn't make it easier to forgive.

Azalea

StewartGriffin wrote: »

"Their interpretation of the facts provided." You have answered your own question

Different people, different childhoods, different lives, different interpretations.

Misinterpretation.

There's nothing ambiguous or subjective here - her mother was abusive, her father drank but wasn't abusive like her mother. Putting a different spin on it for the craic is sh1tty.