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How to achieve secular schools/educational equality
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It's just the general tone of discussion in here on this topic. It's not particularly targeted at anyone.
You can't make any comment or someone attempts to just shoot it down or do that paragraph by paragraph multi quite ripping apart thing.
Just saying, I find the "discussion" a bit of a waste of my day.
My experience is that Ireland has incredibly entrenched and really backwards views of how education should be and there's often zero willingness to discuss change.
Everything reverts to snobbery, sectarianism, sexism or other reasons why they feel the need to see schools as state funded private clubs where "the other" is excluded.
Children here are defined by type : religion, social class (use of token/barrier fees at "private" schools), gender, language and slotted into small, private yet state funded schools where they're safely kept away from the rest of society.
Give it 20 years and it'll be a major problem as you'll have a far more diverse Ireland and a lot of young adults who've been treated as second class citizens or "outsiders" by their country. It's a recipe for lack of social cohesion and ghetto thinking as schools are really out first and probably most impactful experience of interacting with state services.
Sure but the religion one ought to see some movement as very few parents for religious reasons want to see their kids school only contain Catholics. I've never heard that opinion in the real world.
As for sexism in schools, there can be if its based on things like subject options and that boys and girls should study different subjects. But its not sexist in any negative sense to discuss the pros and cons of how boys and girls are educated because there are sex differences and they ought to be taken into account. So projecting how adults should interact onto children should not be automatic. Its about maximising potential without holding either gender back.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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silverharp wrote: »As for sexism in schools, there can be if its based on things like subject options and that boys and girls should study different subjects. But its not sexist in any negative sense to discuss the pros and cons of how boys and girls are educated because there are sex differences and they ought to be taken into account. So projecting how adults should interact onto children should not be automatic. Its about maximising potential without holding either gender back.
That whole idea is gradually losing favour. It's suggested that when all things are otherwise equal, there isn't a great deal of difference between how the genders learn. Ireland is actually unusual for a western country in the amount of single-sex schools it has. There's two big issues with that - first, the genders don't mix and so miss out on a lot of normal peer relationships. Secondly, due to historical notions about what girls and boys should study, the schools tend to be equipped for different subjects, so girls primarily, but also boys miss out on being able to study certain topics. Money becomes an issue at that point - a girls' school is rather unlikely to pour a lot of cash into a technical lab, girls are far less likely to study the classics (because of a lack of Latin and Greek) and definitely not technical drawing, metalwork and woodwork.
Conversely, boys come out of school with no idea of how to cook for themselves. Xbrand mentioned having to go down the road to learn physics - yep, that was my experience of it. And for history.0 -
I don't disagree but its more about logistics. The problem is being stuck with infrastructure that that can take generations to move on or catch up. Based on various criteria you could build 2 schools on the same site. You could have one school and have parallel classes at certain ages or for certain subjects. and indeed there are social benefits to having mixed schools so I am not trying to argue against them on principle. The problem that can happen is that a mixed school could be rum along lines that suit girls more for instance in which case you would have underperformance or alienation by certain boys.That whole idea is gradually losing favour. It's suggested that when all things are otherwise equal, there isn't a great deal of difference between how the genders learn. Ireland is actually unusual for a western country in the amount of single-sex schools it has. There's two big issues with that - first, the genders don't mix and so miss out on a lot of normal peer relationships. Secondly, due to historical notions about what girls and boys should study, the schools tend to be equipped for different subjects, so girls primarily, but also boys miss out on being able to study certain topics. Money becomes an issue at that point - a girls' school is rather unlikely to pour a lot of cash into a technical lab, girls are far less likely to study the classics (because of a lack of Latin and Greek) and definitely not technical drawing, metalwork and woodwork.
Conversely, boys come out of school with no idea of how to cook for themselves. Xbrand mentioned having to go down the road to learn physics - yep, that was my experience of it. And for history.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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One eyed Jack wrote: »There has been quite a number of posts in these discussions solely focused on removing the RCC from Irish education.
The last few posts in this thread have also demonstrated why I said this earlier -
The whole "equality" politics shouldn't be getting mixed up in an argument for secular schools IMO. I'd rather see children receiving a proper education without all the social politics involved.
i dunno why are they so interested in removing catholicsm from the schools, according to the last census 87% or near enough, with the c o i etc adding on a few more percentage points, this is leaving the folks with agnostic leanings in a rather small percentage, but with a loud strident voice, there are better ways to get their point across, getting 60% of the population to agree with them is a big ask, again it will depend on the make up of the next goverment0 -
silverharp wrote: »I don't disagree but its more about logistics. The problem is being stuck with infrastructure that that can take generations to move on or catch up. Based on various criteria you could build 2 schools on the same site. You could have one school and have parallel classes at certain ages or for certain subjects. and indeed there are social benefits to having mixed schools so I am not trying to argue against them on principle. The problem that can happen is that a mixed school could be rum along lines that suit girls more for instance in which case you would have underperformance or alienation by certain boys.
Given that the single biggest barrier to performance in schools in Ireland is social deprivation, not gender, it seems like it would be also focusing on the wrong issues entirely.
Males and females seem to manage to perform perfectly well in school systems where pretty much every school is mixed. They also get on fine in 3rd level.
There's a very well feathered canard quacking rather loudly around this whole area of research tbh
Logistically and financially speaking, we are also creating umpteen unnecessary divisions and duplication of schools. Every extra division to create a new type of school for another identified group of children is another building, another principal's salary, another secretary, another set of overheads. Not to mention, having to ferry boys and girls to different schools in the morning and putting unnecessary strain on parents and CO2 into the atmosphere.
I've seen plenty of examples of BNS and GNS next to each other both struggling for basic facilities and also ridiculous things like a guy (of about 8) not being allowed to 'fraternise' with the girls from the school next door. What kind of warped view of gender does that give children?!0 -
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Given that the single biggest barrier to performance in schools in Ireland is social deprivation, not gender, it seems like it would be also focusing on the wrong issues entirely.
Males and females seem to manage to perform perfectly well in school systems where pretty much every school is mixed. They also get on fine in 3rd level.
There's a very well feathered canard quacking rather loudly around this whole area of research tbh
Logistically and financially speaking, we are also creating umpteen unnecessary divisions and duplication of schools. Every extra division to create a new type of school for another identified group of children is another building, another principal's salary, another secretary, another set of overheads. Not to mention, having to ferry boys and girls to different schools in the morning and putting unnecessary strain on parents and CO2 into the atmosphere.
I've seen plenty of examples of BNS and GNS next to each other both struggling for basic facilities and also ridiculous things like a guy (of about 8) not being allowed to 'fraternise' with the girls from the school next door. What kind of warped view of gender does that give children?!
why are you answering my point about gender considerations with ones about deprivation? thats a different issue. Of course some issues are more important than other and cash might favour focusing on one thing and not something else.
As for everything is grand, nothing to see here move along , gender performance issues do show up which maybe magnified by social issues so it is worth looking at even if mixed schools are perfectly fine but that the teachers and teaching style take these factors into consideration, it doesnt have to be any more complicated than that.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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article in dublinquirer http://dublininquirer.com/2016/01/06/as-other-parties-pledge-to-fight-religious-discrimination-in-schools-fine-gael-stands-alone/ and politico http://www.politico.eu/article/in-irish-schools-non-catholics-struggle-for-admission-religious-discrimination-access-to-education/ abt education and party policies, should our rights depend on number of votes or number of TDs in gov?0
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i dunno why are they so interested in removing catholicsm from the schools, according to the last census 87% or near enough, with the c o i etc adding on a few more percentage points, this is leaving the folks with agnostic leanings in a rather small percentage, but with a loud strident voice, there are better ways to get their point across, getting 60% of the population to agree with them is a big ask, again it will depend on the make up of the next goverment
Ridiculous to suggest the box-ticking exercise in the census should have any bearing whatsoever on how our schools are run.
It's not a question asking people about schools at all.
Does 1/3rd and growing rapidly of marriages in civil ceremony tell you anything about the attitudes of present and future parents to religion? Also the approx 1/3rd of parents who are unmarried? How do you think they feel about conservative catholic dogma being pushed in schools?
Minorities have rights whether the majority like it or not. Democracy is not 51% of the population doing whatever they like and the other 49% having to put up with it.
The marriage equality referendum was a welcome result but is a bad precedent for how human rights should work in this country. Nobody should have to go begging a majority of voters to let them access a state service on the same basis everyone else does.
Either our politicians grow a set, or we will have an ECHR case.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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I think there should be a separation between school and church.
The schools should not be involved in the Praying, First Confession, Communion and Confirmation process.
The church and the christian community can organize an evening or sunday class, away from the school environment where they can teach their kids and prepare them for these ceremonies
A secular child should not be forced to be in a classroom where prayers are going on. The child and their parents should not be pressured into taking part in the sacraments because their done through the school.0 -
Trump4Prez wrote: »I think there should be a separation between school and church.
The schools should not be involved in the Praying, First Confession, Communion and Confirmation process.
The church and the christian community can organize an evening or sunday class, away from the school environment where they can teach their kids and prepare them for these ceremonies
A secular child should not be forced to be in a classroom where prayers are going on. The child and their parents should not be pressured into taking part in the sacraments because their done through the school.
I'm finding it weird to agree with "Trump4Prez". Feels so wrong :eek:0 -
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Trump4Prez wrote: »A secular child should not be forced to be in a classroom where prayers are going on. The child and their parents should not be pressured into taking part in the sacraments because their done through the school.
They're not forced into any classroom. Their parents make a decision not to opt for one of the alternatives, all of which are permitted by the state (and more easily accessible/implemented in Ireland than in many other countries).
For a brief moment earlier today, I thought this thread had got back onto looksee's "how?" track, which is/would be a really interesting discussion. Unfortunately, it's gone off the rails again into an argument about religion/indoctrination/faith/whatever. I've never met anyone go on about religion so much as an internet atheist - even the Jehovah's Witnesses have more normal conversations! :rolleyes:
I was going to respond to some of the more calmly-made assertions (quite a few of which I agree with in one way or another) but it all seems rather pointless if the only reason is to feed the anti-religion intolerants.0 -
silverharp wrote: »why are you answering my point about gender considerations with ones about deprivation? thats a different issue. Of course some issues are more important than other and cash might favour focusing on one thing and not something else.
As for everything is grand, nothing to see here move along , gender performance issues do show up which maybe magnified by social issues so it is worth looking at even if mixed schools are perfectly fine but that the teachers and teaching style take these factors into consideration, it doesnt have to be any more complicated than that.
I am merely pointing out that single biggest issue in terms of access to 3rd level and the employment market and how people perform in the Leaving Cert is social deprivation. Gender disparities are not exactly preventing middle class boys/girls from excelling in mixed or single gender schools.
I'm just pointing out that this issue of gender separation in schools tends to be something one only encounters in Ireland, Britain (much less so) and generally in Islamic countries and also in the developing world. It's not something that you encounter at all really in public school systems elsewhere in Europe or the United States, yet somehow they all get on fine.
But, since I'm not allowed to answer a point by discussing something very relevant to it, I can only assume your aim is to just shut down the debate.
This is exactly why I was saying that I'm not really interested in discussing education in Ireland anymore as far too many people have dogmatic, narrow minded and totally entrenched views and will not even attempt to look beyond them.
It's all about close down debate, keep the status quo - be it religious, class or gender, uniforms etc etc.
Things that work perfectly well in similar countries all over the world are totally ignored in education here and for some reason we have this Irish exceptionalism approach to everything.
I also constantly get the impression that the whole thrust of the education system here is about protecting the status quo and vested interests, and nothing to do with ensuring maximum quality of educational input, best results and learning environment and providing teachers with excellent resources. Instead, it's all about protection of various little empires.
It just frustrates me that a normal, rational debate can't be had about these issues in Ireland.0 -
I am merely pointing out that single biggest issue in terms of access to 3rd level and the employment market and how people perform in the Leaving Cert is social deprivation. Gender disparities are not exactly preventing middle class boys/girls from excelling in mixed or single gender schools.
sure but just because something is the biggest doesnt mean you dont look at the others. Gender disparities might not effect my kids so much but at lower end it could be the difference between a kid engaging in education or deciding at a young age to give up on it.
I'm just pointing out that this issue of gender separation in schools tends to be something one only encounters in Ireland, Britain (much less so) and generally in Islamic countries and also in the developing world. It's not something that you encounter at all really in public school systems elsewhere in Europe or the United States, yet somehow they all get on fine.
the attitude to education should be for it to be as good as it possibly can be. There are issues, universities are complaining about the standard of students in recent years. Even a supermarket chain in Britain had to teach basic maths to some of their checkout assistants. And when you have the British PM having to discuss whether kids learn their times tables you can tell that its all a bit rudderless
But, since I'm not allowed to answer a point by discussing something very relevant to it, I can only assume your aim is to just shut down the debate.
assume away , again no idea what you are on about. So far you have accused me of not understanding big words and now I am trying to shut down debate. It might better if you dont attack me personallyThis is exactly why I was saying that I'm not really interested in discussing education in Ireland anymore as far too many people have dogmatic, narrow minded and totally entrenched views and will not even attempt to look beyond them.
It's all about close down debate, keep the status quo - be it religious, class or gender, uniforms etc etc.
Personally I want better schools, better curriculum, higher standards etc. I'd imagine some general resistance is about Irish people seeing that Britain has gone from trendy policy to trendy policy and it not working, where steady as it goes at least doesn break itThings that work perfectly well in similar countries all over the world are totally ignored in education here and for some reason we have this Irish exceptionalism approach to everything.
whats exceptional about Irish schools here?I also constantly get the impression that the whole thrust of the education system here is about protecting the status quo and vested interests, and nothing to do with ensuring maximum quality of educational input, best results and learning environment and providing teachers with excellent resources. Instead, it's all about protection of various little empires.
It just frustrates me that a normal, rational debate can't be had about these issues in Ireland.
yep, the catholic church wants to protect its turf and its a silly division as to how schools are runA belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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CelticRambler wrote: »Their parents make a decision not to opt for one of the alternatives
For the vast majority of parents there are no alternatives. If there were, there would be no need for this thread or the campaigns going on currently.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »For the vast majority of parents there are no alternatives. If there were, there would be no need for this thread or the campaigns going on currently.
There doesn't appear to be any real demand from the vast majority of parents though calling for alternatives, and that's a real problem for campaigners who are effectively in a minority, with no real motivation for change among the majority. I've yet to see any compelling reason for a secular education system other than simply the fact that it offers parents more choices. If people aren't willing to actively support that, then is there anything would make a compelling argument to get them to actively support it and put pressure on politicians to change the education system?
I don't know that there is tbh.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »There doesn't appear to be any real demand from the vast majority of parents though calling for alternatives, and that's a real problem for campaigners who are effectively in a minority, with no real motivation for change among the majority. I've yet to see any compelling reason for a secular education system other than simply the fact that it offers parents more choices. If people aren't willing to actively support that, then is there anything would make a compelling argument to get them to actively support it and put pressure on politicians to change the education system?
I don't know that there is tbh.
In fairness the media plays a big part in this as well, they set the agenda over what to be outraged at, at the minute extremist Muslims are the number one enemy and if anything that is likely to slightly strengthen Catholicism in the Irish psyche.
If the media properly highlighted the obvious discrimination in our publicly funded primary schools it may garner more interest from parents.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »There doesn't appear to be any real demand from the vast majority of parents though calling for alternatives, and that's a real problem for campaigners who are effectively in a minority, with no real motivation for change among the majority. I've yet to see any compelling reason for a secular education system other than simply the fact that it offers parents more choices. If people aren't willing to actively support that, then is there anything would make a compelling argument to get them to actively support it and put pressure on politicians to change the education system?
I don't know that there is tbh.
a poll from 2012 found that 3 out of 4 parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice.If you can read this, you're too close!
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Huntergonzo wrote: »In fairness the media plays a big part in this as well, they set the agenda over what to be outraged at, at the minute extremist Muslims are the number one enemy and if anything that is likely to slightly strengthen Catholicism in the Irish psyche.
If the media properly highlighted the obvious discrimination in our publicly funded primary schools it may garner more interest from parents.
Media tend to be reactive , they only push open doors. Child abuse, the property bubble etc. The demographics for newspapers must be getting older too so its not going to be a hot button issue for their readers.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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Huntergonzo wrote: »In fairness the media plays a big part in this as well, they set the agenda over what to be outraged at, at the minute extremist Muslims are the number one enemy and if anything that is likely to slightly strengthen Catholicism in the Irish psyche.
If the media properly highlighted the obvious discrimination in our publicly funded primary schools it may garner more interest from parents.
It's all relative though really. Because a secular education system isn't seen as a priority by the general public, it's not going to feature too highly on any national media agenda. The Irish Times tend to hit it in spots though -
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/non-catholic-in-a-catholic-school-1.2446488
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/dominican-school-cancels-invite-to-atheist-speaker-1.24201250 -
silverharp wrote: »Media tend to be reactive , they only push open doors. Child abuse, the property bubble etc. The demographics for newspapers must be getting older too so its not going to be a hot button issue for their readers.
This is true and I think the older reader/listener tends to take the news they're given whereas younger people tend to go looking for news on the internet (perhaps a generalisation but it's what I've witnessed).
Now there's an incredible amount of bullshít on the internet as well of course but I think it's no harm to ask your own questions and research things that the media isn't reporting.0 -
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Yes, but how many parents out of four are actually motivated to actively campaign for a secular education system? It's easy for anyone to say they would support change, but actually doing something to support that change is where there appears to be no motivation. Even among the minority who are calling for change, they still support religious ethos schools by placing their children in those schools, because their priority is themselves and their children's education.0 -
Agreed, there does seem to be a disconnect between what they want and actively working towards changing the system to the type they prefer.One eyed Jack wrote: »Yes, but how many parents out of four are actually motivated to actively campaign for a secular education system? It's easy for anyone to say they would support change, but actually doing something to support that change is where there appears to be no motivation. Even among the minority who are calling for change, they still support religious ethos schools by placing their children in those schools, because their priority is themselves and their children's education.
I wouldn't call it 'support' given it would be choice between education or no education for their child.If you can read this, you're too close!
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Agreed, there does seem to be a disconnect between what they want and actively working towards changing the system to the type they prefer.
I wouldn't call it 'support' given it would be choice between education or no education for their child.
There's exactly the effect of that disconnect though - it's not true to say that the choice is between education and no education. The choice is between education in a school with a religious ethos, or an alternative education outside of a school with a religious ethos. That's not a very palatable choice for a parent who does not want to expose their child to religious indoctrination, but that's when they have to prioritise which is more important to them - their objection to religious ethos schools, or having their children educated in a formal setting.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »There's exactly the effect of that disconnect though - it's not true to say that the choice is between education and no education. The choice is between education in a school with a religious ethos, or an alternative education outside of a school with a religious ethos. That's not a very palatable choice for a parent who does not want to expose their child to religious indoctrination, but that's when they have to prioritise which is more important to them - their objection to religious ethos schools, or having their children educated in a formal setting.
What alternative? Many towns/villages only have religiously run schools.
So what happens is many parents resign themselves to sending kid(s) to religious schools. Not what I'd consider as a parent supporting religious schools.If you can read this, you're too close!
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One eyed Jack wrote: »It's all relative though really. Because a secular education system isn't seen as a priority by the general public, it's not going to feature too highly on any national media agenda. The Irish Times tend to hit it in spots though -
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/non-catholic-in-a-catholic-school-1.2446488
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/dominican-school-cancels-invite-to-atheist-speaker-1.2420125
I again I would simply say though that quite often the media sets the agenda itself, it's almost as if they're saying to people 'here this is what you're upset/concerned about'. However I agree there doesn't seem to be much upheaval from parents but then again people have busy lives to live, it's hard to find time to join every cause.
That's a good article you posted btw, for me it really highlights the imbalanced, unfair system we have, particularly the marginalisation and stigmatisation of children who aren't taking part in communion or confirmation, public schools really should have no part in those occasions.0 -
A lot has been made of "there is a choice", but the reality is that choice is a somewhat illusory concept. Okay, yes, I have the choice to pack up and move to Australia. Except that I can't afford it, I wouldn't know what to do when I got there and also HUGE SPIDERS. But as an Irish citizen with an up-to-date passport, I could, technically, choose to up sticks.
Most ET (to take an example) schools are centred around the east coast, primarily the greater Dublin region. A family living in, say, Kerry, not particularly wealthy, born and raised in the area, working to support their family, perhaps with parents getting older that need a bit of looking after - can you -really- say that it's their own choice to send their child to the local religious school, when there's -only- religious schools nearby rather than upping and moving to Dublin?
The town where I grew up had, in terms of primary schools - 1 all-girls SoCS , 1 all-boys CBS, 1 mixed-gender school under the patronage of the Bishop of the nearby city and a Gaelscoil, also under the patronage of the local clergy. That was quite a big town (big enough to support four primary schools!) but the choice elements were pretty illusory.0 -
I've posted about my area before. One ET school and five religious schools. I've written many letters to the dept about how and where my children can be educated in line with our family ethos and the stock response is that there are no plans to divest existing schools or build new ones as all current schools cater for the children in the area and parents aren't entitled to their first choice of school, even if their ethos conflicts.
If I have to send my children to a religious school that does not mean I'm supportive of or happy with religious schools. In fact, if necessary I will be "the militant atheist" if necessary to ensure minimum indoctrination.0 -
Lazygal : they're just hoping you'll go away. Maybe emigrate or move to a city where they've special schools and other institutions for people like us.
Or better yet, you'll give up and baptise your children and be "normal" like everyone else.
From anything other than an Irish perspective this is passive-aggressive, institutionalised, state evangelisation.
Irish people don't notice because, like someone with Stockholm Syndrome, they're familiar with the system, have no perspective other than the Irish one and don't realise how screwed up it is.
Also almost all those involved in teaching and education at primary and secondary are products of that system. (Primary teachers especially)
So it's hardly surprising there's so much inertia.0 -
I don't mean this as a slight on Irish teachers but when you consider an Irish primary teachers typical education:
Religious primary school- 8 years
Religious secondary school - 6 years
Religious teacher training college - 3 to 4 years.
Religious employer - up to 43 years or so.
Basically they are one step away from being as religiously trained as clergy or nuns.
I know there are alternative ways of training and that they may have gone to ET primary schools but those are not the mainstream of teachers.
Second level teachers at least mostly get a chance to have spent their formative college years in a secular university environment. Although, older ones may well have been in fairly religious universities - I know teachers in their 50s/60s who would have studied catechetics and very religious philosophy programmes in university at UCD in the 60s/70s for example.
That and your career progress was often dependent upon impressing the local priests, nuns, brothers who ran the schools, so those who were most religious and most conservative are likely to have risen to being policy influencers.
This is probably why reform is so difficult.0 -
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This is probably why reform is so difficult.
I quite agree. I know a number of teachers, and one who went to Mary I. only a few years ago as a mature student (in her 40's - a natural teacher). The level of religiosity that each of them encountered during teacher training was enough to make the three who went through it young look back and shake their heads at what they were taught to believe at the time, and the unquestioning compliance that was required of them, and how they ever complied with it. When I asked the older one how she had managed, she just looked at me silently for a moment and said "I don't know how Shrap, I just kept looking at the end result. You couldn't have kept your mouth shut, or your sanity". I believe it. She knows me well
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