xband wrote: » It's just the general tone of discussion in here on this topic. It's not particularly targeted at anyone. You can't make any comment or someone attempts to just shoot it down or do that paragraph by paragraph multi quite ripping apart thing. Just saying, I find the "discussion" a bit of a waste of my day. My experience is that Ireland has incredibly entrenched and really backwards views of how education should be and there's often zero willingness to discuss change. Everything reverts to snobbery, sectarianism, sexism or other reasons why they feel the need to see schools as state funded private clubs where "the other" is excluded. Children here are defined by type : religion, social class (use of token/barrier fees at "private" schools), gender, language and slotted into small, private yet state funded schools where they're safely kept away from the rest of society. Give it 20 years and it'll be a major problem as you'll have a far more diverse Ireland and a lot of young adults who've been treated as second class citizens or "outsiders" by their country. It's a recipe for lack of social cohesion and ghetto thinking as schools are really out first and probably most impactful experience of interacting with state services.
silverharp wrote: » As for sexism in schools, there can be if its based on things like subject options and that boys and girls should study different subjects. But its not sexist in any negative sense to discuss the pros and cons of how boys and girls are educated because there are sex differences and they ought to be taken into account. So projecting how adults should interact onto children should not be automatic. Its about maximising potential without holding either gender back.
Samaris wrote: » That whole idea is gradually losing favour. It's suggested that when all things are otherwise equal, there isn't a great deal of difference between how the genders learn. Ireland is actually unusual for a western country in the amount of single-sex schools it has. There's two big issues with that - first, the genders don't mix and so miss out on a lot of normal peer relationships. Secondly, due to historical notions about what girls and boys should study, the schools tend to be equipped for different subjects, so girls primarily, but also boys miss out on being able to study certain topics. Money becomes an issue at that point - a girls' school is rather unlikely to pour a lot of cash into a technical lab, girls are far less likely to study the classics (because of a lack of Latin and Greek) and definitely not technical drawing, metalwork and woodwork. Conversely, boys come out of school with no idea of how to cook for themselves. Xbrand mentioned having to go down the road to learn physics - yep, that was my experience of it. And for history.
One eyed Jack wrote: » There has been quite a number of posts in these discussions solely focused on removing the RCC from Irish education. The last few posts in this thread have also demonstrated why I said this earlier - The whole "equality" politics shouldn't be getting mixed up in an argument for secular schools IMO. I'd rather see children receiving a proper education without all the social politics involved.
silverharp wrote: » I don't disagree but its more about logistics. The problem is being stuck with infrastructure that that can take generations to move on or catch up. Based on various criteria you could build 2 schools on the same site. You could have one school and have parallel classes at certain ages or for certain subjects. and indeed there are social benefits to having mixed schools so I am not trying to argue against them on principle. The problem that can happen is that a mixed school could be rum along lines that suit girls more for instance in which case you would have underperformance or alienation by certain boys.
xband wrote: » Given that the single biggest barrier to performance in schools in Ireland is social deprivation, not gender, it seems like it would be also focusing on the wrong issues entirely. Males and females seem to manage to perform perfectly well in school systems where pretty much every school is mixed. They also get on fine in 3rd level. There's a very well feathered canard quacking rather loudly around this whole area of research tbh Logistically and financially speaking, we are also creating umpteen unnecessary divisions and duplication of schools. Every extra division to create a new type of school for another identified group of children is another building, another principal's salary, another secretary, another set of overheads. Not to mention, having to ferry boys and girls to different schools in the morning and putting unnecessary strain on parents and CO2 into the atmosphere. I've seen plenty of examples of BNS and GNS next to each other both struggling for basic facilities and also ridiculous things like a guy (of about 8) not being allowed to 'fraternise' with the girls from the school next door. What kind of warped view of gender does that give children?!
flutered wrote: » i dunno why are they so interested in removing catholicsm from the schools, according to the last census 87% or near enough, with the c o i etc adding on a few more percentage points, this is leaving the folks with agnostic leanings in a rather small percentage, but with a loud strident voice, there are better ways to get their point across, getting 60% of the population to agree with them is a big ask, again it will depend on the make up of the next goverment
Trump4Prez wrote: » I think there should be a separation between school and church. The schools should not be involved in the Praying, First Confession, Communion and Confirmation process. The church and the christian community can organize an evening or sunday class, away from the school environment where they can teach their kids and prepare them for these ceremonies A secular child should not be forced to be in a classroom where prayers are going on. The child and their parents should not be pressured into taking part in the sacraments because their done through the school.
Trump4Prez wrote: » A secular child should not be forced to be in a classroom where prayers are going on. The child and their parents should not be pressured into taking part in the sacraments because their done through the school.
silverharp wrote: » why are you answering my point about gender considerations with ones about deprivation? thats a different issue. Of course some issues are more important than other and cash might favour focusing on one thing and not something else. As for everything is grand, nothing to see here move along , gender performance issues do show up which maybe magnified by social issues so it is worth looking at even if mixed schools are perfectly fine but that the teachers and teaching style take these factors into consideration, it doesnt have to be any more complicated than that.
xband wrote: » I am merely pointing out that single biggest issue in terms of access to 3rd level and the employment market and how people perform in the Leaving Cert is social deprivation. Gender disparities are not exactly preventing middle class boys/girls from excelling in mixed or single gender schools.
xband wrote: » I'm just pointing out that this issue of gender separation in schools tends to be something one only encounters in Ireland, Britain (much less so) and generally in Islamic countries and also in the developing world. It's not something that you encounter at all really in public school systems elsewhere in Europe or the United States, yet somehow they all get on fine.
xband wrote: » But, since I'm not allowed to answer a point by discussing something very relevant to it, I can only assume your aim is to just shut down the debate.
xband wrote: » This is exactly why I was saying that I'm not really interested in discussing education in Ireland anymore as far too many people have dogmatic, narrow minded and totally entrenched views and will not even attempt to look beyond them. It's all about close down debate, keep the status quo - be it religious, class or gender, uniforms etc etc.
xband wrote: » Things that work perfectly well in similar countries all over the world are totally ignored in education here and for some reason we have this Irish exceptionalism approach to everything.
xband wrote: » I also constantly get the impression that the whole thrust of the education system here is about protecting the status quo and vested interests, and nothing to do with ensuring maximum quality of educational input, best results and learning environment and providing teachers with excellent resources. Instead, it's all about protection of various little empires. It just frustrates me that a normal, rational debate can't be had about these issues in Ireland.
CelticRambler wrote: » Their parents make a decision not to opt for one of the alternatives
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » For the vast majority of parents there are no alternatives. If there were, there would be no need for this thread or the campaigns going on currently.
One eyed Jack wrote: » There doesn't appear to be any real demand from the vast majority of parents though calling for alternatives, and that's a real problem for campaigners who are effectively in a minority, with no real motivation for change among the majority. I've yet to see any compelling reason for a secular education system other than simply the fact that it offers parents more choices. If people aren't willing to actively support that, then is there anything would make a compelling argument to get them to actively support it and put pressure on politicians to change the education system? I don't know that there is tbh.
Huntergonzo wrote: » In fairness the media plays a big part in this as well, they set the agenda over what to be outraged at, at the minute extremist Muslims are the number one enemy and if anything that is likely to slightly strengthen Catholicism in the Irish psyche. If the media properly highlighted the obvious discrimination in our publicly funded primary schools it may garner more interest from parents.
silverharp wrote: » Media tend to be reactive , they only push open doors. Child abuse, the property bubble etc. The demographics for newspapers must be getting older too so its not going to be a hot button issue for their readers.
Delirium wrote: » a poll from 2012 found that 3 out of 4 parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice.
One eyed Jack wrote: » Yes, but how many parents out of four are actually motivated to actively campaign for a secular education system? It's easy for anyone to say they would support change, but actually doing something to support that change is where there appears to be no motivation. Even among the minority who are calling for change, they still support religious ethos schools by placing their children in those schools, because their priority is themselves and their children's education.
Delirium wrote: » Agreed, there does seem to be a disconnect between what they want and actively working towards changing the system to the type they prefer. I wouldn't call it 'support' given it would be choice between education or no education for their child.
One eyed Jack wrote: » There's exactly the effect of that disconnect though - it's not true to say that the choice is between education and no education. The choice is between education in a school with a religious ethos, or an alternative education outside of a school with a religious ethos. That's not a very palatable choice for a parent who does not want to expose their child to religious indoctrination, but that's when they have to prioritise which is more important to them - their objection to religious ethos schools, or having their children educated in a formal setting.
One eyed Jack wrote: » It's all relative though really. Because a secular education system isn't seen as a priority by the general public, it's not going to feature too highly on any national media agenda. The Irish Times tend to hit it in spots though -http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/non-catholic-in-a-catholic-school-1.2446488http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/dominican-school-cancels-invite-to-atheist-speaker-1.2420125
xband wrote: » This is probably why reform is so difficult.
