Total Financial Transparency Immediately Necessary To Keep The GAA Great.

bruschi

ArielAtom wrote: »

Who is this Paul Cullen lad, what's his role??????

Transparency officer

Xenophile

As was pointed out to me his name is Bryan Cullen!

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/0108/758536-bryan-cullen/

Realt Dearg Sec

Xenophile wrote: »

As was pointed out to me his name is Bryan Cullen!

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/0108/758536-bryan-cullen/

Is there any chance you could actually state what your case is so that people know what they're actually meant to be arguing about? You keep just saying "transparency" but it's not clear what exactly you have a problem with. Vaguely, it seems to be about people being paid for their services to squads. That's a debate worth having but it doesn't seem to be related to transparency. So, yeah, what are you actually arguing is wrong, and what in particular are you saying would fix it? Otherwise there's no debate, it's just you telling people that they're all blind for some reason.

Of course, this all started on the sky thread, where, having advocated that all games should be free, you were asked to say how the shortfall would be made up and instead of answering, you said there should be more transparency in club accounts (though what that has to do with Bryan Cullen I've no idea). So, I'm not actually expecting you to clarify anything at all. You seen to have an agenda, but it's basically just a vague suspicion that the gaa are up to something, somehow.

cilles man

doc_17 wrote: »

County boards have accounts at county convention. Clubs have them at their AGM. A little bit more transperancy at the top would be nice. For instance, how does Paraic Duffy get paid?

Just in relation to the above , Do clubs have to submit their financial reports from their AGMs to the relevant county board? Just wondering .

nice_guy80

cilles man wrote: »

Just in relation to the above , Do clubs have to submit their financial reports from their AGMs to the relevant county board? Just wondering .

yes. they are meant to.
the GAA are meant to be bringing in a rule that all clubs must have audited accounts. I don't know how that will be enforced

Hesh's Umpire

nice_guy80 wrote: »

yes. they are meant to.
the GAA are meant to be bringing in a rule that all clubs must have audited accounts. I don't know how that will be enforced

It will probably be enforced by grants not being given to clubs that haven't furnished accounts.

brocbrocach

It's easy enough to knock the OPs point as he obviously knows little enough about the GAA and possibly has another agenda but there's a nugget of truth in there.

The game is awash with money that wasn't there 10/20/30 years ago and where it's going needs to be looked at very closely. The club and county board structures aren't really set up to be able to deal with the big business sums of cash flowing through them.

Transparency is neeeded because at the moment we're not sure if:
1) managers and coaching staff are being paid. Anecdotally, most decent level managers are but does the GAA acknowledge this in any way and has there been a proper debate over how it fits with the volunteer ethos.
2) players are being "compensated" for the demands of being a high-level athlete. This is something that needs to be looked into as regards football development officers, sponsorship cash, "handy" jobs, things like free/discounted cars, etc. Can all clubs/counties offer the same benefits and if not, are we accepting that they're really not playing to the same rules? Can such a model last?
3) intercounty and interclub transfers. Are they always above board and if not, does money sometimes come into them?
4) are county teams really on a level playing field anymore in terms of money spent to prepare and if not, does the GAA need to step in to level that playing field to ensure the game is a genuine competition in the future.
5) should percentages of income go into a central pool to be distributed among less well off clubs/counties?
6) supporters clubs. Shades of mafia stuff here sometimes.

These are issues that I haven't heard much debate over, off the top of my head. There's probably other implications too, like the taxman, Sports Council funding, government funding in the North, etc.
I would think hurling is less affected by this than football but I know less about it.
I think the proper debates haven't been heard because money issues in the GAA are very very murky. There's a traditional reticence, like a farmer talking about how many sheep he has.
I amn't wondering about these issues just to be stirring the pot - these are the biggest issues that are driving the games today. I strongly believe that if the current wink and nod carry-on is allowed to continue the GAA will be the worst for it.

brocbrocach

It's easy enough to knock the OPs point as he obviously knows little enough about the GAA and possibly has another agenda but there's a nugget of truth in there.

The game is awash with money that wasn't there 10/20/30 years ago and where it's going needs to be looked at very closely. The club and county board structures aren't really set up to be able to deal with the big business sums of cash flowing through them.

Transparency is neeeded because at the moment we're not sure if:
1) managers and coaching staff are being paid. Anecdotally, most decent level managers are but does the GAA acknowledge this in any way and has there been a proper debate over how it fits with the volunteer ethos.
2) players are being "compensated" for the demands of being a high-level athlete. This is something that needs to be looked into as regards football development officers, sponsorship cash, "handy" jobs, things like free/discounted cars, etc. Can all clubs/counties offer the same benefits and if not, are we accepting that they're really not playing to the same rules? Can such a model last?
3) intercounty and interclub transfers. Are they always above board and if not, does money sometimes come into them?
4) are county teams really on a level playing field anymore in terms of money spent to prepare and if not, does the GAA need to step in to level that playing field to ensure the game is a genuine competition in the future.
5) should percentages of income go into a central pool to be distributed among less well off clubs/counties?
6) supporters clubs. Shades of mafia stuff here sometimes.

These are issues that I haven't heard much debate over, off the top of my head. There's probably other implications too, like the taxman, Sports Council funding, government funding in the North, etc.
I would think hurling is less affected by this than football but I know less about it.
I think the proper debates haven't been heard because money issues in the GAA are very very murky. There's a traditional reticence, like a farmer talking about how many sheep he has.
I amn't wondering about these issues just to be stirring the pot - these are the biggest issues that are driving the games today. I strongly believe that if the current wink and nod carry-on is allowed to continue the GAA will be the worst for it.

Xenophile

Tipperary Senior Hurlers played Mary Immaculate IT yesterday.

Final Score ......Tipperary......7.29 .....Mary Immaculate IT......0.06

What a waste of time and money! Thankfully RTE left it out of their sports report this morning.

I would like to see the expenses break down on this and every other game.

Xenophile

brocbrocach wrote: »

It's easy enough to knock the OPs point as he obviously knows little enough about the GAA and possibly has another agenda but there's a nugget of truth in there.

The game is awash with money that wasn't there 10/20/30 years ago and where it's going needs to be looked at very closely. The club and county board structures aren't really set up to be able to deal with the big business sums of cash flowing through them.

Transparency is neeeded because at the moment we're not sure if:
1) managers and coaching staff are being paid. Anecdotally, most decent level managers are but does the GAA acknowledge this in any way and has there been a proper debate over how it fits with the volunteer ethos.
2) players are being "compensated" for the demands of being a high-level athlete. This is something that needs to be looked into as regards football development officers, sponsorship cash, "handy" jobs, things like free/discounted cars, etc. Can all clubs/counties offer the same benefits and if not, are we accepting that they're really not playing to the same rules? Can such a model last?
3) intercounty and interclub transfers. Are they always above board and if not, does money sometimes come into them?
4) are county teams really on a level playing field anymore in terms of money spent to prepare and if not, does the GAA need to step in to level that playing field to ensure the game is a genuine competition in the future.
5) should percentages of income go into a central pool to be distributed among less well off clubs/counties?
6) supporters clubs. Shades of mafia stuff here sometimes.

These are issues that I haven't heard much debate over, off the top of my head. There's probably other implications too, like the taxman, Sports Council funding, government funding in the North, etc.
I would think hurling is less affected by this than football but I know less about it.
I think the proper debates haven't been heard because money issues in the GAA are very very murky. There's a traditional reticence, like a farmer talking about how many sheep he has. as he obviously knows little enough about the GAA and possibly has another agenda
I amn't wondering about these issues just to be stirring the pot - these are the biggest issues that are driving the games today. I strongly believe that if the current wink and nod carry-on is allowed to continue the GAA will be the worst for it.

I am thanking you for your post despite the fact despite your inaccurate comment about me knowing little enough about the GAA and I also assure you that I have no hidden agenda.

I am glad that you have raised the subject again as there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I decided not to debate and will not debate the issue further as I am of the belief that many of the respondents have vested interests.

I will watch with interest the response you get to the points you have raised.

Xenophile

Xenophile wrote: »

Tipperary Senior Hurlers played Mary Immaculate IT yesterday.

Final Score ......Tipperary......7.29 .....Mary Immaculate IT......0.06

What a waste of time and money! Thankfully RTE left it out of their sports report this morning.

I would like to see the expenses break down on this and every other game.

The above is a bad example how funds are misused, I only use it because it is current to yesterday.

Paying money into a supporters club unless you have complete transparency about how the money is being spent in my opinion is foolish.

Clonmel Commercials have made great strides to promote football in Tipperary, winning six minor county championships on the trot and in two weeks time will face Ballboden / St.Endas in the Semi Final of the Senior Club Championship. This is a club that is strapped for cash, so rather than join a draw or make a contribution to the County Supporters Club, the intelligent thing to do is to make a contribution directly to the Club.

Realt Dearg Sec

Xenophile wrote: »

The above is a bad example how funds are misused, I only use it because it is current to yesterday.

Paying money into a supporters club unless you have complete transparency about how the money is being spent in my opinion is foolish.

Clonmel Commercials have made great strides to promote football in Tipperary, winning six minor county championships on the trot and in two weeks time will face Ballboden / St.Endas in the Semi Final of the Senior Club Championship. This is a club that is strapped for cash, so rather than join a draw or make a contribution to the County Supporters Club, the intelligent thing to do is to make a contribution directly to the Club.

But at the start of this thread you said it was the clubs that needed more transparency. Now donating to them is grand but supporters clubs are the problem.

The Lost Sheep

brocbrocach wrote: »

It's easy enough to knock the OPs point as he obviously knows little enough about the GAA and possibly has another agenda but there's a nugget of truth in there.

The game is awash with money that wasn't there 10/20/30 years ago and where it's going needs to be looked at very closely. The club and county board structures aren't really set up to be able to deal with the big business sums of cash flowing through them.

Transparency is neeeded because at the moment we're not sure if:
1) managers and coaching staff are being paid. Anecdotally, most decent level managers are but does the GAA acknowledge this in any way and has there been a proper debate over how it fits with the volunteer ethos.
2) players are being "compensated" for the demands of being a high-level athlete. This is something that needs to be looked into as regards football development officers, sponsorship cash, "handy" jobs, things like free/discounted cars, etc. Can all clubs/counties offer the same benefits and if not, are we accepting that they're really not playing to the same rules? Can such a model last?
3) intercounty and interclub transfers. Are they always above board and if not, does money sometimes come into them?
4) are county teams really on a level playing field anymore in terms of money spent to prepare and if not, does the GAA need to step in to level that playing field to ensure the game is a genuine competition in the future.
5) should percentages of income go into a central pool to be distributed among less well off clubs/counties?
6) supporters clubs. Shades of mafia stuff here sometimes.

These are issues that I haven't heard much debate over, off the top of my head. There's probably other implications too, like the taxman, Sports Council funding, government funding in the North, etc.
I would think hurling is less affected by this than football but I know less about it.
I think the proper debates haven't been heard because money issues in the GAA are very very murky. There's a traditional reticence, like a farmer talking about how many sheep he has.
I amn't wondering about these issues just to be stirring the pot - these are the biggest issues that are driving the games today. I strongly believe that if the current wink and nod carry-on is allowed to continue the GAA will be the worst for it.

He actually knows a fair bit on GAA but xeno harps on using the phrase transparency needlessly...
You cant totally look into jobs provided for players etc as it can be very difficult to say if someone doesn't qualify for job compared to others.
Proving money changes hand for transfers. Impossible to prove most/all of the time.
Counties have never and will never be on an exact level playing field in terms of spending money. Nothing can ever be done to make a completely level playing field.

The Lost Sheep

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Nothing can ever be done to make a completely level playing field.

That doesn't mean more cant be done to make it a more level playing field. But none of that will be achieved by anything the OP referred to. His thesis is that total financial transparency is needed immediately in order to keep the GAA "great". He doesn't identify a specific issue that could be addressed by this or even what total transparency means.

Of course the GAA has issues with parity of funding. But as has been pointed out continually the organization itself is transparent internally to its members as it should be. There's no need to go beyond that. Central Council could use central funding changes to equalize (as much as possible) funding between counties. Payments to managers or benefits for players is a trickier problem that really needs a different solution. Financial transparency of any kind won't really address those issues

brocbrocach

Xenophile wrote: »

I am thanking you for your post despite the fact despite your inaccurate comment about me knowing little enough about the GAA and I also assure you that I have no hidden agenda.

I am glad that you have raised the subject again as there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I decided not to debate and will not debate the issue further as I am of the belief that many of the respondents have vested interests.

I will watch with interest the response you get to the points you have raised.

I apologise for that, based on your getting Brian Cullen's name wrong I thought you might just be jumping on an issue for mischevious purposes.

brocbrocach

Deleted User wrote: »

That doesn't mean more cant be done to make it a more level playing field. But none of that will be achieved by anything the OP referred to. His thesis is that total financial transparency is needed immediately in order to keep the GAA "great". He doesn't identify a specific issue that could be addressed by this or even what total transparency means.

Of course the GAA has issues with parity of funding. But as has been pointed out continually the organization itself is transparent internally to its members as it should be. There's no need to go beyond that. Central Council could use central funding changes to equalize (as much as possible) funding between counties. Payments to managers or benefits for players is a trickier problem that really needs a different solution. Financial transparency of any kind won't really address those issues

Well if you take financial transparency as meaning that there's proper central accounting for all income from club level up. If the clubs and counties have no undeclared "warchests" swilling about anymore then they won't be able to skew the playing field.
I know that a lot of the money comes from lottos and sugar daddies so it'd be very hard to keep track of it so maybe it's time to impose responsibilities on club officers - penalties equivalent to company directors etc. Those clubs that have bar takings etc will already be used to this.

I don't agree with you that the organisation is transparent internally to its members. I'm a member of the GAA and there's no way I'm ever going to find out the real story with the mega-rich club down the road. Those places are ruled by gombeen men now for the most part and they'll ride the association as long as they can for prestige and connections.

howiya

brocbrocach wrote: »

Well if you take financial transparency as meaning that there's proper central accounting for all income from club level up. If the clubs and counties have no undeclared "warchests" swilling about anymore then they won't be able to skew the playing field.
I know that a lot of the money comes from lottos and sugar daddies so it'd be very hard to keep track of it so maybe it's time to impose responsibilities on club officers - penalties equivalent to company directors etc. Those clubs that have bar takings etc will already be used to this.

I don't agree with you that the organisation is transparent internally to its members. I'm a member of the GAA and there's no way I'm ever going to find out the real story with the mega-rich club down the road. Those places are ruled by gombeen men now for the most part and they'll ride the association as long as they can for prestige and connections.

Can I ask why you would be interested in the finances of a club other than those of your own club?

brocbrocach

howiya wrote: »

Can I ask why you would be interested in the finances of a club other than those of your own club?

You can.
Because they steal/attract/poach the best players, underage and adult. They hoover up sponsors. They win competitions on the back of finances. They offend my sense of fairness. They break the rules of the association. They force other clubs to ape them in order to compete with them.

bruschi

Xenophile wrote: »

I decided not to debate and will not debate the issue further as I am of the belief that many of the respondents have vested interests.

I will watch with interest the response you get to the points you have raised.

you started the thread and didnt contribute any debate. At least brocbrocach has made valid points and articulated something rather than keep throwing our spurious statements that have no logic.

bruschi

brocbrocach wrote: »

It's easy enough to knock the OPs point as he obviously knows little enough about the GAA and possibly has another agenda but there's a nugget of truth in there.

The game is awash with money that wasn't there 10/20/30 years ago and where it's going needs to be looked at very closely. The club and county board structures aren't really set up to be able to deal with the big business sums of cash flowing through them.

well at least you articulate and try debate the points, that was the biggest issue with the OP. I have to assume you are Dublin based brocbrocach? As many of the club issues you speak of really dont apply to many places outside of the Dublin clubs and one or 2 others.

brocbrocach wrote: »

Transparency is neeeded because at the moment we're not sure if:
1) managers and coaching staff are being paid. Anecdotally, most decent level managers are but does the GAA acknowledge this in any way and has there been a proper debate over how it fits with the volunteer ethos.

most managers are being paid, but in most cases, it is transparent for the most part. It may be fudging lines as to how it cna be approved to tie in with the 'volunteer' ethos, but mileage expenses can cover enough of what a manager or coach would charge without raising too many eyebrows. Our club knows exactly how much is spent on managers or coaches (none these days as we have no outside coach) but it was known from day 1 what it would be and what was spent at the end of the year on it.

County level can be a lot more misleading alright, but again, in most cases, the allocation of expendature is known on what has been spent on each team.

brocbrocach wrote: »

2) players are being "compensated" for the demands of being a high-level athlete. This is something that needs to be looked into as regards football development officers, sponsorship cash, "handy" jobs, things like free/discounted cars, etc. Can all clubs/counties offer the same benefits and if not, are we accepting that they're really not playing to the same rules? Can such a model last?

again, this is more a Dublin issue than outside. And you are correct, not all can do this. But sponsorship cash, handy jobs or anything else a player can get then more power to them. They give up enough time as it is, so if they can recoup anything back from other means because of the fame the GAA generates, then it doesnt bother me in the slightest.

brocbrocach wrote: »

3) intercounty and interclub transfers. Are they always above board and if not, does money sometimes come into them?

again, more a Dublin issue with club players at least. I cant say I have ever heard of a club anywhere having financial gains for a player to transfer other than a couple of high profile Dublin clubs.

brocbrocach wrote: »

4) are county teams really on a level playing field anymore in terms of money spent to prepare and if not, does the GAA need to step in to level that playing field to ensure the game is a genuine competition in the future.

agree 100%.

brocbrocach wrote: »

5) should percentages of income go into a central pool to be distributed among less well off clubs/counties?

maybe. It's a tough one though, but something needs to be done.

brocbrocach wrote: »

6) supporters clubs. Shades of mafia stuff here sometimes.

could be alright. I dont get too involved in their set ups, but they generally are open too about where their money goes. When it gets to its destination though might be another issue.

brocbrocach wrote: »

These are issues that I haven't heard much debate over, off the top of my head. There's probably other implications too, like the taxman, Sports Council funding, government funding in the North, etc.
I would think hurling is less affected by this than football but I know less about it.
I think the proper debates haven't been heard because money issues in the GAA are very very murky. There's a traditional reticence, like a farmer talking about how many sheep he has.
I amn't wondering about these issues just to be stirring the pot - these are the biggest issues that are driving the games today. I strongly believe that if the current wink and nod carry-on is allowed to continue the GAA will be the worst for it.

I would disagree that these are the biggest issues now. I think the biggest issues are on the field and directly to do with the games themselves rather than off field issues.

brocbrocach

bruschi wrote: »

well at least you articulate and try debate the points, that was the biggest issue with the OP. I have to assume you are Dublin based brocbrocach? As many of the club issues you speak of really dont apply to many places outside of the Dublin clubs and one or 2 others.




most managers are being paid, but in most cases, it is transparent for the most part. It may be fudging lines as to how it cna be approved to tie in with the 'volunteer' ethos, but mileage expenses can cover enough of what a manager or coach would charge without raising too many eyebrows. Our club knows exactly how much is spent on managers or coaches (none these days as we have no outside coach) but it was known from day 1 what it would be and what was spent at the end of the year on it.

County level can be a lot more misleading alright, but again, in most cases, the allocation of expendature is known on what has been spent on each team.



again, this is more a Dublin issue than outside. And you are correct, not all can do this. But sponsorship cash, handy jobs or anything else a player can get then more power to them. They give up enough time as it is, so if they can recoup anything back from other means because of the fame the GAA generates, then it doesnt bother me in the slightest.


again, more a Dublin issue with club players at least. I cant say I have ever heard of a club anywhere having financial gains for a player to transfer other than a couple of high profile Dublin clubs.



agree 100%.



maybe. It's a tough one though, but something needs to be done.



could be alright. I dont get too involved in their set ups, but they generally are open too about where their money goes. When it gets to its destination though might be another issue.



I would disagree that these are the biggest issues now. I think the biggest issues are on the field and directly to do with the games themselves rather than off field issues.

Yeah I feel the OPs tack was wrong in this case but he had the right idea allright.
I think theres a little voice in GAA peoples head that tells them something is rotten in the state of the Association. People are reluctant to deal with it though unless it's put directly to them.

You're right I'm dublin based now but not from there. And you're right that its more a dublin issue apart from the large towns and cities around the country. But I think it applies to all county teams and i think that once it's the norm in Dublin clubs it'll spread more and more. Everyone that can will have to follow the successful model.

As regards clubs/counties being happy to give managers and players what they can, that's fine on the individual level. But what about when you have a club or a county with an outside/paid manager and a panel of 25 who are 3/4 professional, all with handy jobs, "subsidised travel", personal sponsorship. In what universe can a team that's run closer to the spirit of the GAA compete with that on the field?
The people in that rich club might be chuffed with it but the rest of us have to compete with it. Look at soccer where people are happy that Arab billionaires buy their club. The prospect of success dulls peoples judgement.

"I would disagree that these are the biggest issues now. I think the biggest issues are on the field and directly to do with the games themselves rather than off field issues."
That's fair enough but I think most of the on-field issues are driven by off-field changes. "Compensated" players are under less pressure to work. They will be fitter. Fitter players have changed the game recently. The skillful player who trains once a week might be able to best a less skillful player who trains twice a week, but he won't best a player who trains 5 times a week + gym sessions etc.
Paid managers are under more pressure. They'll do what's necessary to win, no matter how bad the spectacle.

howiya

brocbrocach wrote: »

You can.
Because they steal/attract/poach the best players, underage and adult. They hoover up sponsors. They win competitions on the back of finances. They offend my sense of fairness. They break the rules of the association. They force other clubs to ape them in order to compete with them.

I don't get how that club publishing their finances for all and sundry to see would change any of that.

But I would argue that only members of that club should have access to it's financial reports with any additional scrutiny to come from county boards, provincial councils etc rather than Joe Bloggs from a soccer club (as an example) being able to look up how the local GAA club is doing.

brocbrocach

howiya wrote: »

I don't get how that club publishing their finances for all and sundry to see would change any of that.

But I would argue that only members of that club should have access to it's financial reports with any additional scrutiny to come from county boards, provincial councils etc rather than Joe Bloggs from a soccer club (as an example) being able to look up how the local GAA club is doing.

It'd show that all their incomes and outgoings were squeaky clean and above board according to the rules of the GAA.
What's the harm in Joe Bloggs looking at your books though, as long as you're happy to stand over them.
Maybe you're right that it should only be higher officials who oversee the books. One problem there is that you might get selective leaking though.

howiya

brocbrocach wrote: »

It'd show that all their incomes and outgoings were squeaky clean and above board according to the rules of the GAA.
What's the harm in Joe Bloggs looking at your books though, as long as you're happy to stand over them.
Maybe you're right that it should only be higher officials who oversee the books. One problem there is that you might get selective leaking though.

Not that there's harm in Joe Bloggs looking at the books but in my opinion the finances of a club should only concern members of that club

nice_guy80

I would like to see some salary information

Especially spending on games development salaries. I think a lot of money is wasted and staff are overpaid for what they deliver

bruschi

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I would like to see some salary information

Especially spending on games development salaries. I think a lot of money is wasted and staff are overpaid for what they deliver

you mean the coaching development officers in each county?

howiya

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I would like to see some salary information

Especially spending on games development salaries. I think a lot of money is wasted and staff are overpaid for what they deliver

On the subject of salaries I'd love to know how much Dessie Farrell and others in the GPA are paid and who they are accountable to

nice_guy80

bruschi wrote: »

you mean the coaching development officers in each county?

I was thinking more the full time games officers in counties and provinces and croke park

a lot of lads sitting on coaching plans, which are barely implemented

brocbrocach

howiya wrote: »

Not that there's harm in Joe Bloggs looking at the books but in my opinion the finances of a club should only concern members of that club

Why though?
You don't have to get down to who didn't pay subs etc of course but a general outline of club and county finances, signed off on by a club officer and a Croke park officer would be good I think. They could be kept at Croke Park and at county HQs, available to view on request but not online or anything.

bruschi

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I was thinking more the full time games officers in counties and provinces and croke park

a lot of lads sitting on coaching plans, which are barely implemented

So the overall games development officer in each county? There is one per county, and there is one overseer at provincial level. Do you know the salary or do you just think it is a waste of money?