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Direct Debits from Non-Irish Accounts

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    #62
    Bhangraman
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭Bhangraman


    josephsoap wrote: »
    I've never auto topped up my card, if you auto top does this avoid having to go to a pay zone shop to top up?

    I'm sure I read something before that if you topped up online you would still have to 'pick up' the top up from a shop :-/

    It auto loads your Leap card directly.


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    #63
    Bhangraman
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭Bhangraman


    Bhangraman wrote: »
    Oh joy to receive this SMS from Three for my first direct debit:

    From Three: Your Direct Debit has returned unpaid. Please pay urgently on 1800944933 to avoid service interruption or see your bill/Three.ie for ways to pay.

    Back to square one...

    When I called them, they said they had problems with my BIC code. I took the opportunity to say that by 1 Feb they shouldn't even ask for BIC code but nonetheless accomodated them by filling yet another SEPA direct debit mandate form (this has been dragging on for so long they had time to change the design of the form).
    I think this is enough and I am going to complaint to the regulator. I see the financial ombudsman does not handle complaints about telecom providers and refer to Comreg instead, should I complain to them?

    Three just called saying that Number26 seem to have SEPA compliance issues as the direct debit is set up but fails to take the money when the time comes. Now contacting the bank...
    Anyone with Number 26 managed to set up direct debit with Three? I'll also ask the same question on the Number 26 thread.
    Dear X,

    I am writing to you in reference to a complaint received for account Y.

    I have reviewed your account and understand you have experience difficulties setting up your Direct Debit. I have contacted our finance team to query this and they have investigated the account details provided.

    They have advised that we cannot set up a Direct Debit using these details as your bank is having SEPA compliance issue. When the Direct Debit was set up before it failed and will continue to do this until your bank has investigated this issue. You will need to contact your bank directly and query this with them.

    I'm sorry I cannot be of more assistance.

    Kind Regards,
    Three Customer Care


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    #64
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    I've had my Feb and march Three bill taken by DD from my Number 26 account with no problems.


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    #65
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Update on GloHealth.

    The Financial Ombudsman informed GloHealth about my complaint yesterday and today I had a phone call with them. They say, they never had to set up a Direct Debit from a non Irish account but their IT department is confident that it should be possible in the backend (not the front end), so they will now try. Which is a departure of the "we don't take non-irish accounts".


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    #66
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Laya contacted me today to say the Central Bank had been in touch at my request. They are now accepting a paper DDM.


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    #67
    JTMan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭JTMan


    Well done to both of you. Great results. More companies complying with the law.


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    #68
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Bhangraman wrote: »
    LeapCard.ie now allows their auto topup direct debit from non-Irish accounts using IBAN and BIC.

    How did you manage to set this up, I just tried and get the "irish bank accounts only" when I enter my German IBAN.

    And their FAQ states (bold is mine):
    Note – You will be asked to enter your bank account details including BIC and IBAN; Note: Your bank account must be a Republic of Ireland account where only one signatory is required, and the bank account must accept Direct Debits.


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    #69
    Bhangraman
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭Bhangraman


    Yggr of Asgard wrote: »
    How did you manage to set this up, I just tried and get the "irish bank accounts only" when I enter my German IBAN.

    And their FAQ states (bold is mine):

    Yes you are right, I don't know what happened, I thought I had managed to set it up a few weeks ago as last message they told me on 22 Dec 2015 they planned to comply within 3 months:
    The National Transport Authority (the NTA) are responsible for the Leap Card integrated ticketing scheme. The auto top-up facility is a recently introduced feature that was initially made available via an online application for Irish bank account holders because there is a dependency on the ability of the customers bank to display a specific code to auto top-up applicants, without which sign up cannot be completed.

    Although it was always to extend the facility to all SEPA reachable bank accounts once the operation of this facility had reached steady state, there is a challenge with regard to paper mandates that has to be resolved. Furthermore, NTA is not in a position to guarantee that all non-Irish bank account holders will be able to see the required sign up code and therefore it is possible that many non-Irish bank account holders may not be able to successfully sign up to auto top-up.

    However, I am happy to say that notwithstanding these issues, NTA is currently at an advanced stage of planning to integrate all SEPA reachable bank accounts and expects to complete this process within the next 3 months.

    But when I checked just now it was not set up and I got the same error message as you that "Auto top-ups are only available to Irish Bank Accounts." so it just emailed them back to enquire.


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    #70
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Update on GloHealth

    My German Bank account this morning shows me the advance notice that GloHealth has requested the premium via Direct Debit for next week, so they manged to get it set up correctly.

    I love that I can see direct debits when they are entering the system days in advance instead just on the day they take it.

    So GloHealth down, now let's see if my last remaining holdout Greenstar manages to actually deduct the account, they say they set it up.


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    #71
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Moved Laya Health, GloHealth and TV License (AnPost) to the now accepting areas, added Leap Card to the refusing.


    Refusing to accept non-irish accounts

    Accepting non-irish accounts online
    • Greenstar
    • IDMobile
    • Revenue Commissioners
    • Virgin Media (Broadband, TV, Home Phone)


    Accepting non-irish accounts via paper mandate
    Accepting non-irish accounts via customer service complaint
    • GloHealth


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    #72
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Bhangraman wrote: »
    Yes you are right, I don't know what happened, I thought I had managed to set it up a few weeks ago as last message they told me on 22 Dec 2015 they planned to comply within 3 months:


    For reference they also told me they would comply within 3 months - back in January 2015!

    I didn't chase this as I didn't have time - but they are really taking the piss.

    Here's what I got from them them over a year ago - pretty much the same as you (that was after insisting heavily following an initial rejection and forwarding an email from the CBI confirming they HAVE TO support non Irish SEPA DDs):
    Thank you for contacting us.



    The National Transport Authority (the NTA) are responsible for the Leap Card integrated ticketing scheme. The auto top-up facility is a recently introduced feature that was initially made available via an online application for Irish bank account holders because there is a dependency on the ability of the customers bank to display a specific code to auto top-up applicants, without which signup cannot be completed.



    Although it was always to extend the facility to all SEPA reachable bank accounts once the operation of this facility had reached steady state, there is a challenge with regard to paper mandates that has to be resolved. Furthermore, NTA is not in a position to guarantee that all non-Irish bank account holders will be able to see the required signup code and therefore it is possible that many non-Irish bank account holders may not be able to successfully sign up to auto top-up.



    However, I am happy to say that notwithstanding these issues, NTA is currently at an advanced stage of planning to integrate all SEPA reachable bank accounts and expects to complete this process within the next 3 months.



    Apologies for the inconvenience caused.

    Edit: I just sent a follow-up email to what they sent in Jan 2015, asking how I can now register my account. Will post their answer here.


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    #73
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Update on Greenstar

    Greenstar has now finally requested the first Direct Debit from my German Account.

    Funny enough (giving that they did not want to set it up in the first place), they are taking the money via a 3rd party called Sentenial, who requested it from an English bank. So they are making full use of electronic debits SEPA compliant but they don't want you to set it up.

    Anyhow, that was my last challenger company.


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    #74
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Moved Meteor to accepting paper mandate!


    Refusing to accept non-irish accounts

    Accepting non-irish accounts online
    • Greenstar
    • IDMobile
    • Revenue Commissioners
    • Virgin Media (Broadband, TV, Home Phone)


    Accepting non-irish accounts via paper mandate
    Accepting non-irish accounts via customer service complaint
    • GloHealth


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    #75
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Yggr of Asgard wrote: »
    Moved Meteor to accepting paper mandate!

    Well done :-)

    I have sent the following to the Leap Card customer service but they seem to be ignoring me (would be the first time with questions around the topic).
    You informed in January 2015 that you were planning on complying with SEPA Regulation 260/2012/EU within 3 months and allow for non Irish SEPA accounts to be used as a source of fund for the Auto top-up service. However, if I try to register with a French IBAN number on the website I still get a message "Auto top-ups are only available to Irish Bank Accounts.". Could you please let me know what is the process to register my account?

    Would you know if the fact that they are not answering my emails is considered a "final answer" and enough to ask the Central Bank and/or Financial Ombudsman for assistance? (I first contact them over a year ago to which they replied I would be able to register within 3 months, and only got back to them 2 weeks ago quoting their previous email and asking how I can now register)


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    #76
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Well done :-)

    I have sent the following to the Leap Card customer service but they seem to be ignoring me (would be the first time with questions around the topic).



    Would you know if the fact that they are not answering my emails is considered a "final answer" and enough to ask the Central Bank and/or Financial Ombudsman for assistance?

    Not answering qualifies as trigger for the regulator, i think it's 45 days since you logged the complaint with Leapcard.

    They are also ignoring my request and I tried on twitter too, but get ignored there too.


  • Options
    #77
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Yggr of Asgard wrote: »
    Not answering qualifies as trigger for the regulator, i think it's 45 days since you logged the complaint with Leapcard.

    They are also ignoring my request and I tried on twitter too, but get ignored there too.

    Sorry maybe a stupid question - but is there any clarity on whether the trigger is from the first email you sent raising the issue or from the latest communication you have had with them? I'll wait 45 days if needed, but since I can clearly show I laid out the EU directive to them and asked for an answer back in December 2014 (and at the time they said it would be addressed within 3 months), do I have a case to go to the Central Bank straight away since the problem still isn't addressed?

    Edit: in the meantime I have sent an email to the ECB explaining the issue to see if they are willing to provide assistance. I suspect they will direct me to the Cental Bank of Ireland, but if the CBI can see the request has been raised with ECB already, hopefully it will carry more weight regardless of the Irish regulator's delay being met or not.


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    #78
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    It's hard to tell which regulations actually apply in case of this, as it's unclear what regulation applies for a government entity like National Transport Authority of Ireland ignoring EU rules.

    My best guess, giving that this is related to a financial transaction is that they have 40 business days to resolve after they received it but I can't find anything about a complaints process they have on their website.

    The ECB is going to point you to either the Irish central bank or the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (www.ccpc.ie) for your complaint.

    The Irish Central bank is not going to enter into dialogue with you about the complaint as they are not investigating individual complaints. They will take action but they are not dealing with the complaint individually on your behalf.

    It might be the CCPC that is the correct point for your complaint, you could try logging on there and see what they say, they might refer you to some other organization but at least you will know who is responsible.

    As with most EU rules, the enforcement is scattered and all over the place. I wish they would define enforcement better in regulations.


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    #79
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    To give quick update on Leap Cards, the NTA is consistently ignorign my emails. As expected the ECB deirected me to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. I have raised a case with them and will post any feedback here (and since I had a good write-up of my experience with the NTA, I also sent it to the CBI in case they want to have a look from their end).


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    #80
    Elessar
    Registered Users Posts: 5,239 ✭✭✭Elessar


    No luck my end with three over the phone - they wouldn't accept a non irish account. They've sent on the paper mandate, but it's the same bloody system they will enter it on!
    I've emailed laya - they still won't take non irish accounts online.


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    #81
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Bob24 wrote: »
    To give quick update on Leap Cards, the NTA is consistently ignorign my emails. As expected the ECB deirected me to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. I have raised a case with them and will post any feedback here (and since I had a good write-up of my experience with the NTA, I also sent it to the CBI in case they want to have a look from their end).

    I still haven't heard back from the CCPC after almost 2 weeks (all I got is an automatic email to confirm my message was received).

    For people who have contacted them before, what kind of turn-around time did you get from them?

    And FYI the CBI doesn't seem to be interested in chasing these things from their own perspective anyone. The answer I received from them was:

    "Thank you for contacting the Central Bank of Ireland.

    The Minister for Finance signed the ‘SEPA amendment’ Statutory Instrument (SI 204 of 2016) on 26 April 2016. One effect of the amendment SI is to appoint the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) as the competent authority to deal with non-compliance with SEPA Regulation 260/2012 by parties other than financial services providers. As the Central Bank has no responsibility for the National Transport Authority, please contact the CCPC on http://www.consumerhelp.ie/contact-form

    I hope the above is of assistance."


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    #82
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Elessar wrote: »
    No luck my end with three over the phone - they wouldn't accept a non irish account. They've sent on the paper mandate, but it's the same bloody system they will enter it on!
    I've emailed laya - they still won't take non irish accounts online.

    No idea what three are playing it. The direct debits are coming out of my account no problem for a few months now.

    Laya were able to set up my DD over the phone, but only after I got in touch with the Central Bank. But when I tried to make a claim through their app last night, it refused to accept the IBAN they take their premium from as being valid to pay claims to..


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    #83
    BazzaDP
    Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭BazzaDP


    It's been mentioned a couple of times before on this thread but it's worth repeating:

    Companies are NOT allowed to set up direct debits to non-Irish based accounts online or over the telephone. This MUST be set up using a paper mandate.

    Technically SEPA doesn't allow for ANY online or telephone direct debit mandates, but Ireland has made an exception for their own countries accounts as they previously allowed this before under the DirectDebit+ scheme used before SEPA came along.

    In Ireland this is covered by the document: http://www.bpfi.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/SEPA-Core-Direct-Debit-Scheme-for-Creditors-V-1.3.pdf which includes this line:

    "Phone & Internet sign up can only be used for Irish Debtor sign up"

    Strict instructions as to how these should be completed are included in the above document.

    Banks in Ireland - that companies use to collect direct debits - also have this in their rules. For example BOI has this: "Creditors can only use Paperless Mandates for debtors accounts held in the Republic of Ireland. Any debtor with
    an account held outside Republic of Ireland must sign a valid paper SEPA mandate." in their guidelines for companies: http://businessbanking.bankofireland.com/fs/doc/wysiwyg/1sepa-creditor-guide-oct-2013.pdf

    Yes it goes against the spirit of SEPA to differentiate Irish and non-Irish accounts, yes the accounts will be put into the same system at the end of the day and yes companies don't like it any more than you as an individual do but, unfortunately, this is the law. Companies accepting non-Irish accounts over the telephone or Internet are not following SEPA properly any more than companies refusing to accept non-Irish accounts at all. Write to your TD or MEP if you want this changed.


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    #84
    Gerry1995
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Gerry1995


    I'm trying to get Eir to accept Number 26 card but they say the Bank rejected the card ?? Number 26 say not them. I tried to give my Number26 IBAN details to them for a DD over the phone but the said "We are an Irish company and only accept Irish bank accounts" I kid you not. Ask eir... on Boards gave me a link to a form to download and submit, so I have just done that today, what's the betting the say the bank rejected the DD. I will update on any movement


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    #85
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Bob24 wrote: »
    To give quick update on Leap Cards, the NTA is consistently ignorign my emails. As expected the ECB deirected me to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. I have raised a case with them and will post any feedback here (and since I had a good write-up of my experience with the NTA, I also sent it to the CBI in case they want to have a look from their end).

    I have unfortunately kind of given with with this. The NTA is ignoring my emails and the CPC never got back to me with regards to the case I raised.

    Feeling quite frustrated I had to say ...


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    #86
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    have you tried the ecb, any of your mep's and the european ombudsman when the ecb tell you to go back to the icb?


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    #87
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    have you tried the ecb, any of your mep's and the european ombudsman when the ecb tell you to go back to the icb?

    Will look into the european ombudsman thanks ... have tried the ECB and the CIB with no luck (they both direct me to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, which is not getting back to me at all).


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    #88
    JTMan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭JTMan


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Will look into the european ombudsman thanks ... have tried the ECB and the CIB with no luck (they both direct me to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, which is not getting back to me at all).

    I suggest you phone the CCPC as a next step.


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    #89
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    This wouldn't be in the CCPC's remit.


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    #90
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Lux23 wrote: »
    This wouldn't be in the CCPC's remit.

    Both the ECB and the CBI told me to talk to the CCPC ...


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    #91
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    I don't see how it could be, they don't enforce consumer protection legislation in the financial services, that would be the CBI.


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