Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

Sunflower 27

Zellner is not an investigator, she is going through all the information to see what fits. And that information changes.

We know Teresa was not murdered the way it was claimed in series 1.

As witnesses and evidence come to light the narrative will change. We now know Bobby lied on the stand. That changes things, for example, too .

i'd imagine getting to the bottom of what happened to Teresa is what is most important - however long and however many twists and turns that takes.

Scotty #

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Avery is a scumbag who not only murdered TA but also ruined his nephews life.

You could be right but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that evidence was planted, either by the cops or by someone else.

Example, the levels of DNA found on the bonnet latch were many multiples of normal DNA levels found after handling a bonnet latch. Sweat, in itself does not actually contain DNA, only human cells do. This would suggest someone purposely placed SA's DNA there.

TH's key did not contain her DNA, only SA's. Again, highly unusual and would suggest planting.

The trailer was searched several times (5 I think?) with no sign of the key. Then the key is found on the floor where it should have easily been found previous, and by a cop who was specifically told not to investigate the case and who had actually signed out of the property several hours before hand.

Her DNA was found on the bullet but it now appears this did not come from blood.

The burnt bones found in SA's burn barrel were not burnt there meaning someone placed them there.

In my own opinion, I do not believe that several cops, including forensic investigators, missed that key on the floor. Therefore I can only conclude that it was planted there and if they planted the key, what else did they do to secure a conviction??

If ANY of the evidence the jury was shown was fabricated in ANY way, then his conviction was a miscarriage of justice.

Uncharted

Scotty # wrote: »

Not at all. They're your pretty stereotypical rural white americans. Low income, low education, shoot anything that moves, dabble in a bit of petty crime. They're not unusual by any means.

Are you serious?? Petty crime??

None of them are model citizens but the 3 lads really take the cake.

Chuck,Earl and Steven Avery all have sexual assault and physical assault charges against them,along with their other crimes....


Petty,it ain't.

Sunflower 27

Uncharted wrote: »

Are you serious?? Petty crime??

None of them are model citizens but the 3 lads really take the cake.

Chuck,Earl and Steven Avery all have sexual assault and physical assault charges against them,along with their other crimes....


Petty,it ain't.

You are forgetting Bobby and his child porn/twisted and macabre internet searches.

Scotty #

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Avery claims the blood was taken 4 days after TA went missing, his taillight story. Zellner takes this as fact and does a reconstruction in MaM blaming the cops.

It's not Zellner's job to present facts. It's her job to present enough plausible possibilities as to create enough doubt.

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

There’s no way those 2 yokels would know how to plant blood evidence.

Hmm, I don't think SA's blood was 'planted' very well tbh. His blood is found in quite random (but obvious) places in the RAV and not really consistent with where you might expect blood in such a scenario. And how come he left no fingerprints? It wasn't because he wore gloves, if he had, his finger wouldn't have dropped blood all over the place!

Uncharted

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

You are forgetting Bobby and his child porn/twisted and macabre internet searches.

Like I said,the family are a total pack of wierdos.

Intimidation and bullying seems to be the way the roost is ruled. Be it physical,mental or sexual. It's sad for the victims.

A very damaged family dynamic it seems.

Scotty #

Uncharted wrote: »

Are you serious?? Petty crime??

I was describing the sterotypical redneck, not the Avery's.

Uncharted

Scotty # wrote: »

I was describing the sterotypical redneck, not the Avery's.

Yeah,course you weren't.

Poor attempt at saving face :rolleyes:

Scotty #

lol, I'm not trying to save face at all. I don't think the Avery's would stick out much in the typical rural white american surroundings whatsoever.

Uncharted

Scotty # wrote: »

lol, I'm not trying to save face at all. I don't think the Avery's would stick out much in the typical rural white american surroundings whatsoever.

You're looking for a reaction. I won't be biting.

Mountainsandh

Scotty # wrote: »

lol, I'm not trying to save face at all. I don't think the Avery's would stick out much in the typical rural white american surroundings whatsoever.

They weren't very "liked" in their area it seems.

A really dysfunctional family alright. Lots of inappropriate (sexualised) and violent interactions.

On the Facebook group I follow there's always a lot of compassion for the parents as in "oh, poor old sods" etc... I do feel compassion for them now they're older, but I wouldn't think they are the angels they're made out to be. Surely to arrive at such a dysfunctional family stage, there must have been antecedents.

retro:electro

Uncharted wrote: »

Like I said,the family are a total pack of wierdos.

Intimidation and bullying seems to be the way the roost is ruled. Be it physical,mental or sexual. It's sad for the victims.

A very damaged family dynamic it seems.

It really does speak a volumes about them when you literally have no idea which one of them it was because the reality is it could have been any of them. (Bar Brendan, he’s an angel in my eyes )

8-10

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Avery claims the blood was taken 4 days after TA went missing, his taillight story. Zellner takes this as fact and does a reconstruction in MaM blaming the cops. She’s changing her tune now to fit her narrative. There’s no way those 2 yokels would know how to plant blood evidence.

She says in MAM2 that she doesn't think the cops planted the blood

8-10

Scotty # wrote: »

Example, the levels of DNA found on the bonnet latch were many multiples of normal DNA levels found after handling a bonnet latch. Sweat, in itself does not actually contain DNA, only human cells do. This would suggest someone purposely placed SA's DNA there.

I'm pretty sure the suggestion isn't that it was planted, but that the swab sample from the hood latch was incorrectly labelled, and essentially swapped with a groin swab either on purpose or by accident.

I did find the level of DNA found to be compelling as set out by Zellner's side and the mislabelling theory is much more believable to me than the planting theory.

I never saw if she also tested the groin swab to see if it was actually the hood latch swab though....has that come up?

Mountainsandh

8-10 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the suggestion isn't that it was planted, but that the swab sample from the hood latch was incorrectly labelled, and essentially swapped with a groin swab either on purpose or by accident.

I did find the level of DNA found to be compelling as set out by Zellner's side and the mislabelling theory is much more believable to me than the planting theory.

I never saw if she also tested the groin swab to see if it was actually the hood latch swab though....has that come up?

No, the groin swab was supposedly discarded by the nurse...

When they went in and the nurse did all the swabs, she took the groin swab "by accident", and they stopped her as it wasn't listed on the warrant. It was too late, but they told the nurse to discard it. Thing is at that very moment, Steven was taken into the room next door to get dressed again or whatever, and the two cops with him followed. But lo and behold, one of them went back into the room where the nurse was for something...

So the swab was "supposedly" discarded.

That's the way the story sticks in my head, but I'm trying to find the statement again for accuracy and will post and correct story when I do.

edit : found it.
So I added the bit about the officers going back to the other room, that's my imagination.
The reason why my imagination went that way though, is that while the swabs are taken, Steven is in a room with the nurse (Fritszh), Wiegert and... Fassbender.

Then Steven is ushered somewhere else to Shroeder and Fleming.

So what did Fassbender and Wiegert do in the meantime ? We don't know. Presumably, took all the swabs, wrapped everything up for collection of swabs, then joined Steven when it was time to go.

Here's a screenshot and a link to the document.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Interview-Report-2005Nov09.pdf

Mam of 4

Mountainsandh wrote: »

No, the groin swab was supposedly discarded by the nurse...

When they went in and the nurse did all the swabs, she took the groin swab "by accident", and they stopped her as it wasn't listed on the warrant. It was too late, but they told the nurse to discard it. Thing is at that very moment, Steven was taken into the room next door to get dressed again or whatever, and the two cops with him followed. But lo and behold, one of them went back into the room where the nurse was for something...

So the swab was "supposedly" discarded.

That's the way the story sticks in my head, but I'm trying to find the statement again for accuracy and will post and correct story when I do.

Kathleen Zellner would be lucky to have you on her investigative team Mountainsandh !
You do so much digging for info , and links , and kindly share all the details with the rest of us , thank you .

Mountainsandh

Mam of 4 wrote: »

Kathleen Zellner would be lucky to have you on her investigative team Mountainsandh !
You do so much digging for info , and links , and kindly share all the details with the rest of us , thank you .

Too much
I'm supposed to be studying for an online course, but instead I'm procrastinating with MaM again

retro:electro

Mam of 4 wrote: »

Kathleen Zellner would be lucky to have you on her investigative team Mountainsandh !
You do so much digging for info , and links , and kindly share all the details with the rest of us , thank you .

+1. Love your posts Mountainsandh. So informative. Very much appreciated!

Mountainsandh

Don't encourage me !!!!!!!!! :eek:
Thks.

Anyway, I was still browsing there (:/), and I think I spotted the inconsistency that may have alerted Zellner that something was not quite right re-the swabs.

The reports I've linked to above are arrest warrants reports sort of things, from the Department of Justice.

Thing is, I knew I had also seen a report of this event (medical examinations and swab, palm and prints collections of Barb, Steven, Dolores, Allen, and I think Chuck and Earl) in the CASO files.

My go-to is the CASO files, but I couldn't find anything about a groin swab, in fact I did a search for "groin" (ggguuurrrosss ) that returned nothing. But searching for "nurse" found the report.

In the CASO files, everything is very much detailed. When evidence is collected, you are given the time the evidence is spotted, lifted, who's there, who picks it up and what they put it in (a paper bag, an envelope, a box...), and then you are told who takes charge of it for the time being, usually again with a time stamp. Later, whenever that evidence is passed around, you are told someone collects envelope such, from person-such in the lab/evidence room, you are told exactly what the someone-person does with it, if they are opening something, if they are bringing it somewhere else, etc...
Sometimes there is no need for evidence, so the officer clearly says they don't need that so they replace it, sometimes they will discard something, and that's documented precisely again.

Well, there is NOTHING about groin swabs in the CASO report.
There is absolutely no mention of the 2 accidental groin swabs, and how they were discarded. There is no mention of who was present when the swabs were discarded, or what exactly happened.
The buccal swabs are described and mentioned as they should be. NOT a word about the groin swabs.

This is not that the investigators neglected to mention the groin swabs. This is deliberate, imo.

I have studied these CASO files (procrastination ! ) extensively since last week. EVERYTHING is reported. Why are the groin swabs omitted ?

So feck it, I'm impressed with Zellner. She is spot on with the groin swab theory imo, but the planting is even more deliberate and brazen than her expert suggests in MaM 2, because when the buccal swab is delivered to the lab, there is a report of it, but again, NO mention of an extra swab being delivered.

The report I'm on about is p.188-189 in the Caso files, and the report when buccal swab ONLY is delivered is p.230.

https://archive.org/details/CASOInvestigativeReportRedacted/page/n187

Checkmate19

Zellner is the best. But there is simple no way either of them are getting out. To much to lose for to many people. Unless someone caves which is highly unlikely. They are not getting out. No chance. To much coverage and to much money involved now. This will go on for maybe two three years but nobodys getting a retrial even. NO CHANCE.

Checkmate19

AVERY WILL DIE IN JAIL. DASSEY MAYBE. I THINK BOTH ARE INNOCENT.

Sunflower 27

8-10 wrote: »

She says in MAM2 that she doesn't think the cops planted the blood

Does she hive a reason? I can't remember.

Watched some of series 1 again yesterday. Few things that stick:

Scott was hell-bent on Steven staying locked up. Strange when it's his then partner's brother and Steven getting off would have most likely helped Brendan.

It was also Scott that wanted Brendan to take the plea deal, which was something like 20 years plus parole. No one else thought this a good idea.

I'd forgotten how much I despised Len Kachinskey.

Mark Wiegert looks permanently guilty.

Sunflower 27

Checkmate19 wrote: »

Zellner is the best. But there is simple no way either of them are getting out. To much to lose for to many people. Unless someone caves which is highly unlikely. They are not getting out. No chance. To much coverage and to much money involved now. This will go on for maybe two three years but nobodys getting a retrial even. NO CHANCE.

Zellner is not going to let this one go. I believe she will prove what happened.

marklazarcovic

Someone's key has gotta die that's central to this before what I believe the truth is revealed, the blame will then be heaped on this person now dead for lying or providing false testimony etc, and the boys released .

Kratz or Bobby or Scott would suit that narrative. State would get off and save face somewhat.

jv2000

Checkmate19 wrote: »

Zellner is the best. But there is simple no way either of them are getting out. To much to lose for to many people. Unless someone caves which is highly unlikely. They are not getting out. No chance. To much coverage and to much money involved now. This will go on for maybe two three years but nobodys getting a retrial even. NO CHANCE.

I am not sure what to think about this. I tend to agree with you that neither will get out because there will be every conceivable roadblock put in their way and the legal system in place in that state is one of the most corrupt I have ever read about in the so-called civilised first world (and in the land of the free). I actually find it weird in that Brendan is clearly not guilty, I read his interview transcripts again in full (even the ones with Michael O' Kelly) and he clearly knows nothing about Steven's apparent involvement, he is guessing answers at every stage and contradicts himself numerous times. Steven could be involved but so could any of his siblings (and Scott and Bobby) but with Zellner behind him it will be a break in Steven's case that would result in Brendan being free. I cannot see what further arguments can be made in Brendan's case, the en banc review was a real kick in the teeth. I wonder if after getting Steven a retrial and getting him out on grounds of reasonable doubt if Zellner would assist Steve and Laura in getting Brendan out? She really adds an extra perspective with the way she thinks - not the formulaic academic approach that Steve and Laura have been taking which was their downfall in the en banc review.

Checkmate19

Will the powers that be grant Avery a retrial really hard to see it. Dassey I think he's hit the end of the line. Hard to see his next move. He probably needs movement on Avery's side.

Sunflower 27

It's just astounding that someone can be put away for decades for lying/making up a confession. No murder happened in Avery's garage. Teresa was not assaulted in Avery's trailer. There is literally nothing but a planted bullet.

Any time I think of the two of them stuck in prison I am torn between sadness and fury.

Not sure what to make of the people of Manitowoc supporting their law enforcement They are just ridiculous.

Sunflower 27

Remember this cretin?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6308107/amp/Making-Murderers-Len-Kachinsky-represented-Brendan-Dassey-faces-five-years-jail-stalking.html

Mountainsandh

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

It's just astounding that someone can be put away for decades for lying/making up a confession. No murder happened in Avery's garage. Teresa was not assaulted in Avery's trailer. There is literally nothing but a planted bullet.

Any time I think of the two of them stuck in prison I am torn between sadness and fury.

Not sure what to make of the people of Manitowoc supporting their law enforcement They are just ridiculous.

I was watching a video today with Pete Baetz, he was the private investigator for the defense before Zellner came on the scene. He's a local, I think he grew up in Two Rivers, so his insight is interesting.
He's in touch with Zellner but I think he's retired now.

He mentioned something in that video that had not occurred to me, but that is a "duh" moment if ever there was one :
The Manitowok county is already in deep financial trouble. If Brendan and Steven were both exonerated, they would both be owed humongous compensation money. The only way the state would be able to pay them is to collect an additional levy/tax on the people of that county. Insurances will not cover these payments if the compensation is due for an intent to induce in error. (can't remember the wording exactly, but basically when the State is proven to have acted with malevolent/dishonest intent).

So anyone of that county who voted for these corrupt people are kind of stuck into supporting them, for fear of having to fund the kitty to compensate SA and BD for millions.

Sunflower 27

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I was watching a video today with Pete Baetz, he was the private investigator for the defense before Zellner came on the scene. He's a local, I think he grew up in Two Rivers, so his insight is interesting.
He's in touch with Zellner but I think he's retired now.

He mentioned something in that video that had not occurred to me, but that is a "duh" moment if ever there was one :
The Manitowok county is already in deep financial trouble. If Brendan and Steven were both exonerated, they would both be owed humongous compensation money. The only way the state would be able to pay them is to collect an additional levy/tax on the people of that county. Insurances will not cover these payments if the compensation is due for an intent to induce in error. (can't remember the wording exactly, but basically when the State is proven to have acted with malevolent/dishonest intent).

So anyone of that county who voted for these corrupt people are kind of stuck into supporting them, for fear of having to fund the kitty to compensate SA and BD for millions.

That would explain a lot. I think a lot of them just don't want the bad press and want the whole thing to be forgotten.