NCT 2nd Fail after repair

Des_ireland

Hi everyone,

My car (02 Ford Fiesta) failed the NCT on rear brake imbalance about 2 weeks ago, plus a faulty tail light and front side light.
Left it into a local garage and they "repaired" the break issue and replaced a bulb also for the lights.

The light still didn't work properly after the work, but that turned out to just be a fuse. replaced the fuse and all fine.

The issue with the breaks however, have actually gotten worse when it went back for the test. The mechanic replaced the break shoes first time round.

My question is, where do I stand with regards the repairs? I specifically asked the mechanic to fix the issue that caused it to fail. IMO I shouldn't have to pay again to have it fixed - they didn't do the job the first time round. I spoke to the mechanic office this morning - typically they have no one on site this morning and I have to bring it back on Monday. Am i legally covered here anywhere, in that they didn't fix the issue?
I fix computers as a side job, and if i didn't fix an issue for someone, I couldn't rightly charge them! The fact that the mechanic didn't fix the lights issue, when it was just a fuse, doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their work!

savagethegoat

new brake shoes take a while to bed in , this may be the problem. Did it fail on service brake or parking brake or both?

Des_ireland

Just the service brake on the rear axle..
Readings first time were:
Effort: 64%
Near side: 0.770kN;
Offside: 1.310kN
Ovality:
Near side: 15%
Offside: 5
Imbalance: 41%

Second time:
Effort: 70%
Near side: 0.840kN
Offside: 1.720 kN
Ovality:
near side: 40%
Off side: 64%
Imbalance: 51%

Parking break effort and imbalance are nearly identical both times

savagethegoat

It seems Ovality is your problem. I know little about it but found this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84547391


New drums cost little and you should be able to fit them yourself

Des_ireland

Thanks for that.. I'll leave it up to the mechanic to figure out what's wrong!

Do you know how I stand with the repairs themselves? I asked them to fix the issue but whatever work they completed didn't fix the issue and actually seems to have made it worse!

I assume I shouldn't have to pay for this again!

Seweryn

Des_ireland wrote: »

Thanks for that.. I'll leave it up to the mechanic to figure out what's wrong!

Do you know how I stand with the repairs themselves? I asked them to fix the issue but whatever work they completed didn't fix the issue and actually seems to have made it worse!

I assume I shouldn't have to pay for this again!

As suggested above, the new pads need time to bed in to old drums. The ovality is usually caused by worn drums / discs. Your mechanic did not replace them the first time, but may have to do it now.
The thing with your mechanic is that he does not have the equipment to test the brakes the way they do it in the NCT centre. Surely, he could charge you for the replacement of the complete rear brake system and your car would most likely pass, but I see he tried to solve the problem with minimum cost and effort.

Des_ireland

I get where you're coming from.. From my point of view, I asked for a problem to be fixed and they didn't fix it.. I was charged over 150 for parts and labor to do the work. If they didn't know what was wrong then they should have told me and I could go to somewhere that can fix it..

I got the work done over 2 weeks ago.. How long do they usually take to bed in? I might have done about 250km at least over that time..

martinr5232

Either shoes wernt adjusted properly or the wheel cylinder is seized on one side.
Id say they wernt adjusted properly though.

padyjoe

There's a minimum thickness on drums as well. If it's still above it's worth to try re-surface it (skimming). If it's below they must be discarded as there is not much left for heat dissipation leading to warped drums.

CosmicSmash

Des_ireland wrote: »

I get where you're coming from.. From my point of view, I asked for a problem to be fixed and they didn't fix it.. I was charged over 150 for parts and labor to do the work. If they didn't know what was wrong then they should have told me and I could go to somewhere that can fix it..

I have to say from where I'm looking, the mechanic didn't try to screw you on the price the first time. They changed the parts they thought would get the car through the test the first retest, it didn't. It's not the end of the world. By your thinking the mechanic should pay for the drums and the labour to fit them, no disrespect but I don't think I'd like you as a customer.

Seweryn

Des_ireland wrote: »

I get where you're coming from.. From my point of view, I asked for a problem to be fixed and they didn't fix it.. I was charged over 150 for parts and labor to do the work. If they didn't know what was wrong then they should have told me and I could go to somewhere that can fix it..

I got the work done over 2 weeks ago.. How long do they usually take to bed in? I might have done about 250km at least over that time..

250 km should be just about enough for the pads to settle in. Then I would check the adjustment of the shoes vs drums and the tension of both brake cables.

As I said before, the mechanic tried to do his best when charging you as little as possible for your car to pass the test. What do you expect him to do now - replace the drums at no cost? That is unreasonable in my view and as a customer you need to have a bit of understanding for the mechanic. Works on brake systems are simple enough, however you can almost guarantee the test will be passed when you replace all wear and tear components and adjust them correctly (but you would have to pay for all this in the first place!). The amount you were charged is hardly a ground breaking figure, just ask the mechanic to check the drums and replace them or skim the old drums if they are well within the limit. You will need to cover the cost of the new drums of course, but you can gently ask the mechanic for some discount on labour...

Stoolbend

What was the imbalance on the parking brake?



If there's no major imbalance on the parking brake then it'll be a hydraulic issue.

JohnBoy26

Des_ireland wrote: »

I get where you're coming from.. From my point of view, I asked for a problem to be fixed and they didn't fix it.. I was charged over 150 for parts and labor to do the work. If they didn't know what was wrong then they should have told me and I could go to somewhere that can fix it..

I got the work done over 2 weeks ago.. How long do they usually take to bed in? I might have done about 250km at least over that time..

Where would that be then? What garage has the same or similar brake testing equipment as the nct? Very few I reckon. What garage would have done anything different than you're mechanic?

The only way to see if the problem is solved is to put it on the brake tester. There is no way to tell what the problem is from the fail sheet. It could be a number of things. The mechanic done the right thing imo by replacing the obvious first. Brakes can be tricky to get right sometimes. It's like flying blind without test equipment.

Bigus

A gravel road is a good place to check BRAKE balance , just compare the skid marks , seriously.

Seweryn

Bigus wrote: »

A gravel road is a good place to check BRAKE balance , just compare the skid marks , seriously.

If you turn the ABS system off.

Des_ireland

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a mechanic to fix an issue and have it actually fixed.. If he doesn't have the test equipment and is flying blind then he's just guessing.. An educated guess I'll admit, but still a guess. By that measure, he can replace part after part until he gets the right one, meanwhile charging me time and time again for not actually fixing the issue. After he did repairs this time, the imbalance actually got worse, so I'm now further from a fix then when I started. If he can't do the job properly he shouldn't take it on. He didn't try rip me off with the work he did, but what was done hasn't fixed the issue. If I pay someone to fix a problem then I expect it to be fixed, not have a go and fingers crossed. There might not be many places with the test equipment, but he should have just said he couldn't do it because of this.
I'll wait for a phone call on Monday to see what he says....

JohnBoy26

Des_ireland wrote: »

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a mechanic to fix an issue and have it actually fixed.. If he doesn't have the test equipment and is flying blind then he's just guessing.. An educated guess I'll admit, but still a guess. By that measure, he can replace part after part until he gets the right one, meanwhile charging me time and time again for not actually fixing the issue. After he did repairs this time, the imbalance actually got worse, so I'm now further from a fix then when I started. If he can't do the job properly he shouldn't take it on. He didn't try rip me off with the work he did, but what was done hasn't fixed the issue. If I pay someone to fix a problem then I expect it to be fixed, not have a go and fingers crossed. There might not be many places with the test equipment, but he should have just said he couldn't do it because of this.
I'll wait for a phone call on Monday to see what he says....

Tell you he couldn't do it because he has no test equipment? What garage has brake test equipment? You won't many places to do it if you expect them to have a rolling road to test you're brakes. Any place that does have one will probably cost more just to test the brakes than the cost of an nct retest.

visual

Two ways to view it
One mechanic replaces everything connected with rear brakes or Two replaces what he believes will fix it. There is a huge difference in price

I not seen any garages with the same brake test equipment as NCT.

So what option do you want 1 or 2 or do you want option 2 & freebies towards option 1 until your car is fixed.

Seweryn

visual wrote: »

Two ways to view it
One mechanic replaces everything connected with rear brakes or Two replaces what he believes will fix it. There is a huge difference in price

I not seen any garages with the same brake test equipment as NCT.

So what option do you want 1 or 2 or do you want option 2 freebies towards option 1 until your car is fixed.

If the option one happened we would have a thread "Mechanic screwed me over for servicing my brakes".

Honestly, no garage or dealer has the same brake testing equipment as the NCT Centre.
And secondly the NCT fail sheet does not say what parts are worn. The Mechanic did what he believed was right to fix the fault.

George Dalton

It's quite easy to get an accurate idea of rear brake imbalance without having brake test rollers. The mechanic should have realised after fitting the shoes that the problem wasn't fixed. Unfortunately he didn't. These things happen from time to time, everybody makes mistakes.

In my opinion the fairest solution (and what we do in cases like this) would be to take the car back to the mechanic and get him to figure out what is causing the problem, if it is just a case of adjustment then the fault lies with how the work was carried out in the first place so he shouldn't charge you anything and in fact should also pay for the second retest for you.

If additional parts are needed to sort the issue (EG wheel cylinders) then he should fit and charge you for the extra parts minus the retest fee.

That way you get your car fixed and you aren't out of pocket. The mechanic is down €28 and some of his time but that's his own fault. It's not really reasonable to expect him to fix the issue for free regardless of the cause because that could end up being something far more serious than a set of shoes. To use your own computer repair analogy, that would be like you charging someone a small fee for reflowing some solder joints and then when that didn't fix the issue being expected to replace a motherboard FOC at significant cost to yourself.

JohnBoy26

George Dalton wrote: »

It's quite easy to get an accurate idea of rear brake imbalance without having brake test rollers. The mechanic should have realised after fitting the shoes that the problem wasn't fixed. Unfortunately he didn't. These things happen from time to time, everybody makes mistakes.

In my opinion the fairest solution (and what we do in cases like this) would be to take the car back to the mechanic and get him to figure out what is causing the problem, if it is just a case of adjustment then the fault lies with how the work was carried out in the first place so he shouldn't charge you anything and in fact should also pay for the second retest for you.

If additional parts are needed to sort the issue (EG wheel cylinders) then he should fit and charge you for the extra parts minus the retest fee.

That way you get your car fixed and you aren't out of pocket. The mechanic is down €28 and some of his time but that's his own fault. It's not really reasonable to expect him to fix the issue for free regardless of the cause because that could end up being something far more serious than a set of shoes. To use your own computer repair analogy, that would be like you charging someone a small fee for reflowing some solder joints and then when that didn't fix the issue being expected to replace a motherboard FOC at significant cost to yourself.

How is that then?

George Dalton

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

How is that then?

With both rear wheels off the ground have someone gradually apply the parking brake and compare the resistance by trying to turn each wheel as the brakes are applied. Repeat for service brake. This is very easy to do and gives you a very good idea of how the rear brakes are performing relative to each other.

On cars without ABS the sharp stop on a loose surface is also pretty reliable.

JohnBoy26

George Dalton wrote: »

With both rear wheels off the ground have someone gradually apply the parking brake and compare the resistance by trying to turn each wheel as the brakes are applied. Repeat for service brake. This is very easy to do and gives you a very good idea of how the rear brakes are performing relative to each other.

On cars without ABS the sharp stop on a loose surface is also pretty reliable.

Non of what you say above is fool proof. There can still be an imbalance.

Seweryn

George Dalton wrote: »

With both rear wheels off the ground have someone gradually apply the parking brake and compare the resistance by trying to turn each wheel as the brakes are applied. Repeat for service brake. This is very easy to do and gives you a very good idea of how the rear brakes are performing relative to each other.

That was my first idea, and it was the way I used to do when servicing my Volkswagen Beetle years ago, as the brake system in that car needs manual adjustments every few thousand km. However, I am not sure if this method would be effective for the service brake as the forces the brakes are tested with are wide range of resistance and far greater than you can do it with your hands. But surely this is still by far the best method without using professional testing equipment.

George Dalton

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Non of what you say above is fool proof. There can still be an imbalance.

Yes but not a huge imbalance like the OP's case. That would be competely obvious using the methods I outlined. Remember the NCT allows up to a 30% imbalance to pass, even a 30% imbalance will be easy to pick up on tbh.

George Dalton

Seweryn wrote: »

That was my first idea, and it was the way I used to do when servicing my Volkswagen Beetle years ago, as the brake system in that car needs manual adjustments every few thousand km. However, I am not sure if this method would be effective for the service brake as the forces the brakes are tested with are wide range of resistance and far greater than you can do it with your hands. But surely this is still by far the best method without using professional testing equipment.

Obviously in an ideal world every garage would love to invest a 5 figure sum in brake test equipment, but in the real world the above method combined with a bit of common sense gets the job done in the vast majority of cases.

BrianD3

George Dalton wrote: »

Yes but not a huge imbalance like the OP's case. That would be competely obvious using the methods I outlined. Remember the NCT allows up to a 30% imbalance to pass, even a 30% imbalance will be easy to pick up on tbh.

+1 to this, this has been my experience too and I'm not even close to being a proper mechanic.

The OPs second NCT resulted in brake forces of 1.72 and 0.84 for the rear axle service brake. The car failed on this imbalance. The NCT calling this a "51% imbalance" is misleading and makes it sound less serious than it is.

It is nonsense to suggest that a garage would need brake rollers to check if one rear brake was producing more than double the force of the other.

JohnBoy26

George Dalton wrote: »

Yes but not a huge imbalance like the OP's case. That would be competely obvious using the methods I outlined. Remember the NCT allows up to a 30% imbalance to pass, even a 30% imbalance will be easy to pick up on tbh.

Mine wasn't. The imbalance wasn't as bad as the op's but it was still a lot.

JohnBoy26

BrianD3 wrote: »

+1 to this, this has been my experience too and I'm not even close to being a proper mechanic.

The OPs second NCT resulted in brake forces of 1.72 and 0.84 for the rear axle service brake. The car failed on this imbalance. The NCT calling this a "51% imbalance" is misleading and makes it sound less serious than it is.

It is nonsense to suggest that a garage would need brake rollers to check if one rear brake was producing more than double the force of the other.

Seeing as you're not I'll take you're dig at me with a pinch of salt.

BrianD3

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Seeing as you're not I'll take you're dig at me with a pinch of salt.

Your

George Dalton

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Mine wasn't. The imbalance wasn't as bad as the op's but it was still a lot.

There are always exceptions, refer to my post #26 above.

BrianD3

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Seeing as you're not I'll take you're dig at me with a pinch of salt.

So, are you a proper mechanic then? Seems like you're not as much of an expert as you think you are.

JohnBoy26

BrianD3 wrote: »

So, are you a proper mechanic then? Seems like you're not as much of an expert as you think you are.

No I don't think of myself in that way. Surely you have a better comeback than finding fault with one misspelled word in my post. :pac:

JohnBoy26

George Dalton wrote: »

There are always exceptions, refer to my post #26 above.

So you agree that method isn't always accurate?

George Dalton

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

So you agree that method isn't always accurate?

Yes I would have to concede that it's not always accurate. But what method is always accurate? None is the simple answer.

JohnBoy26

George Dalton wrote: »

Yes I would have to concede that it's not always accurate. But what method is always accurate? None is the simple answer.

True enough.