**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 12 - "Hell Bent"

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Great end to Clara's tenure as companion. Really enjoyed that episode and as mentioned the final 3 episodes have been superb - actually apart from that found footage episode, this season has been pretty great.

Angron

SueBoom wrote: »

When he said four knocks I definitely thought it was going to be The Master/Missy.

At least it wasn't Wilfred :pac:

SueBoom

Angron wrote: »

At least it wasn't Wilfred :pac:

I was having flashbacks of that bloody glass case!

mrkiscool2

Hmmm, I seem to have a completely different opinion to everyone here about this episode. Firstly, let me say something. I tried my very best not to compare this to "Heaven Sent", I really did. But seeing how great Capaldi was without Coleman there meant I couldn't. I've always felt Coleman stole a lot of Capaldi's thunder and this episode was no different. And that's not because Coleman out-acts Capaldi, she never has in my opinion, but by how she is written as an almost equal, if not better, than the Doctor. Once they went the direction they did with the 12th Doctor, Clara was always going to be an awful fit as a companion. Sorry, but she was. Her and the 11th got on so well due to their caring nature, having her seem more Doctor than The Doctor was always going to detract.

Now, onto my criticism of the episode. It's still a great episode, don't get me wrong. But the let so much slip wit it. Firstly, the whole Gallifrey thing. I was so excited for it and it was just entirely disappointing. The best part was The Doctor drawing the line in the sand, as was him going back inside each time the Lord President didn't appear infront of him. But the rest? Apart from the old Tardis (which I will get back to), was glob-awful. Capaldi acted well, a man torn between his values and his love for the woman who basically saved him, Coleman acted well but she shouldn't have even been involved in the episode. I didn't like her at any point during the 12th Doctors run and I actually almost cried when she died, which says a lot. To bring her back was silly.

Also, she was all set to go back to die and then, for no apparent reason other than how long The Doctor was in the last will and testament for, she decides not to. Firstly, it completely nullified her speech from "Face The Raven" as well as being a complete turn-about in her character full-stop, never mind from just the episode. Sure, the ending was heart-breaking and unexpected in a way, but at the same time there could have been so much more done with the episode.

I found the change in the Doctor to be annoying as I know it won't even last through the Christmas Special, never-mind into the next series. Seriously, continuity is a big deal. Not giving us that, after such an amazing season that was full of a less-caring, more direct Doctor, is just insulting.

Again, lots of contradictions in this episode. Moffat basically betrayed every part of the Doctor we have seen in the last two series in one episode. Good episode in some ways but I also have a lot of anger against it.

Tzar Chasm

So, Clara and ashilder are immortal and have a tardis, ashilder is 8+ BILLION years old, and clara also exists in some form at all points in space and time

Eugene Norman

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

So, Clara and ashilder are immortal and have a tardis, ashilder is 8+ BILLION years old, and clara also exists in some form at all points in space and time

Well the jury is out in the impossible girl, it's hard to say what happened there. The doctor did go in and rescue her so that may not matter.


For those of you worrying that Clara is breaking the rules by not dying in London – given the nature of time travel she can turn up in Gallifrey at any time and then get inserted back into the last second of her life. The episode was clear that her heartbeat hadn't re-started. She's still dead in London.

Wibbs

I didn't dislike it as much as mrkiscool2 did, but I see their points TBH. It was a warm and cuddly send off for Coleman and her fans and it was very well written and directed(especially the latter), but for me it was just as self indulgent as Roses second goodbye, which fans near universally slate. For some reason Clara(and Moffat) gets more leeway, even though being the impossible girl she made bad wolf look like a puppy.

Clara dying was good writing and a fitting and logical end to her latter hubris and emotionally powerful with it. The previous xmas possible ending of her being an old woman would have worked well too. Rose on the beach that first time was fitting and emotionally powerful too(and Piper stole it), the second time was a sop. She got her Doctor and happy ending(wasn't there originally a bit in the script that they even got a bit of a Tardis too?). Now Clara is essentially immortal**, has her own also immortal companion and a brand new Tardis*, which they can now both fly like old hands at it? She became the Doctor, something he was dead set against. It made little sense in the overall story.

Caveat; I did really enjoy it and was glad to see Coleman do a curtain call, that's the sentimentalist in me. I loved seeing Rose come back too though majorly disliked the how. However as an overall fan it rang hollow for me. If Rose had been left on that beach alone and Clara had died on that street it would have been better storytelling IMH. I liked how the Ponds left and especially how Donna did.




*whoever's building these things back home really should fire the bloke in charge of the chameleon circuit mind you..

** [Nerd] now she's a fixed point in time. Like Capt Jack was and the Doc could hardly bear to look at him because he was so "wrong". How come 12 didn't spot her right away in the cafe?

FunLover18

Eugene Norman wrote:

For those of you worrying that Clara is breaking the rules by not dying in London – given the nature of time travel she can turn up in Gallifrey at any time and then get inserted back into the last second of her life. The episode was clear that her heartbeat hadn't re-started. She's still dead in London.

But could she not die on one of her adventures and therefore still fracture time.

was it ever explained why the Doctor was dishevelled and wearing a hoodie throughout the first half of the season and all the subtle hints about him knowing she was going to die.

Wibbs

FunLover18 wrote: »

But could she not die on one of her adventures and therefore still fracture time.

It seems she's like Capt Jack a fixed point in time and can't die. Unless time "heals itself" and her heart starts again. Or something.

Tzar Chasm

Jack can die, he just dosent stay dead, i suspect that shes more like owen

pixelburp

Yeah, I think that Clara isn't really alive, that the idea of the fixed point in time means damage can't really occur that won't heal and revert the person back to that point. Heck captain jack was blown to pieces, yet still coalesced back to his normal form.

pixelburp

Wibbs wrote: »

. For some reason Clara(and Moffat) gets more leeway, even though being the impossible girl she made bad wolf look like a puppy.

Im not sure about that, seems like Moffat gets absolutely no leeway these days from some quarters, regardless what he writes

Wibbs

pixelburp wrote: »

Im not sure about that, seems like Moffat gets absolutely no leeway these days from some quarters, regardless what he writes

I suppose PB. Though I suspect the same or similar quarters would have had a meltdown if RTD had written Clara the way she was written. Rose got awful stick from some, but Clara is like oul Rosie on steroids.

kylith

Well, I really disliked it.

I'm not a fan of Clara anyway (I never could get past the whole 'Oh Doctor, you're so dreamy' stuff that ran through 10 and 11's runs), but her death in Face the Raven was good and brave and worthy and to just have it all undone in this episode totally negates her bravery and sacrifice in that episode. There's no peril in Moffatt scripts; if someone dies you only have to wait a little while and they'll be back.

I squeed for the first time in years at the Gallifrey reveal last week but it was just totally wasted on saving Clara, who didn't even want to be saved in the first place. So much could have been done with Gallifrey and the Hybrid and the Cloister and the Cloister Wraiths and it just felt entirely wasted.

Series finales used to have Dalek invasions and worlds in peril and adventure and excitement and now it's just... this. Possibly it's because Heaven Sent was so brilliant, and gave Capaldi some real room to show his mettle and this week just felt like a let down. It was like going to a restaurant and being served fillet steak with all the trimmings for your main course and then being handed a bowl of tinned prunes and packet custard for dessert. It's grand if you're expecting prunes and custard, but not so good when you've been built up to expect something really good.

pixelburp

kylith wrote: »

I'm not a fan of Clara anyway (I never could get past the whole 'Oh Doctor, you're so dreamy' stuff that ran through 10 and 11's runs), but her death in Face the Raven was good and brave and worthy and to just have it all undone in this episode totally negates her bravery and sacrifice in that episode. There's no peril in Moffatt scripts; if someone dies you only have to wait a little while and they'll be back.

But her bravery remains; she's still going to die, she has to. She has nowhere to go except to meet her death. This way she at least gets some closure, a proper goodbye and final journey - in fact she gets a chance to 'graduate' as a Doctor of sorts; a plot that had been explicitly earmarked throughout the series.

The issue of death been a problem with Sci-Fi since year zero of the genre though, I don't think that's Moffat's specific problem. Once the technology within the world becomes sufficiently 'magical' in quality, more things are open. Hey, at least this isn't comic books, where death has become an utterly meaningless, redundant concept.

kylith wrote: »

Series finales used to have Dalek invasions and worlds in peril and adventure and excitement and now it's just... this.

That's part of the problem though: RTD's last series in charge had the entirety of space and time in peril. Literally every atom of the universe was under threat. The stake had become ludicrous, unwieldy and frankly impossible to relate to. I think Doctor Who shot itself in the foot by escalating the threat every series finale, simply because of the unwritten rule to make things bigger and louder than the last time around. It had nowhere to go except to dial the stakes back a little, to make it about the characters.

Mr.Saturn

Having spent much of my adolescence seeing it debated throughout Gallifrey Base, I took one slightly pedantic note away from the finale:

They're gonna be a bit ambiguous about the number of regenerations they granted The Doctor. Rassilon's "how many regenerations did we grant you? I have all night?" leaves it open a wee bit. Could be used for dramatic tension down-the-line where The Doctor's unsure if it's death or a new life.

As to the hybrid, I imagine it's gonna be run with a bit. If you want it, the fact The Doctor dethroned Gallifrey's head-of-state could be construed as having left it in ruin. Then, there's The Doctor and Clara, Me, or Clara (as a human revived by Time Lord science) herself for contenders too. Mind, can see it returning as something of a wider arc, similar to the cracks in 11's run. Especially given the fact

River Song (human crossed with Time Lord) is appearing in the Xmas special.

Must admit I was primed for something a bit grander in scale given the singular nature of "Heaven Sent" but another more personal tale wasn't entirely unwelcome.

pixelburp wrote: »

That's part of the problem though: RTD's last series in charge had the entirety of space and time in peril. Literally every atom of the universe was under threat. The stake had become ludicrous, unwieldy and frankly impossible to relate to. I think Doctor Who shot itself in the foot by escalating the threat every series finale, simply because of the unwritten rule to make things bigger and louder than the last time around. It had nowhere to go except to dial the stakes back a little, to make it about the characters.

I don't think I need to qualify how highly I hold so much of RTD's work in the highest affection, but I would echo this sentiment wholly. Had he not left when he did, I imagine the only course of dramatic stakes left would be if he were to smash the fourth wall and have the big-bad actually threaten the viewer.

Penn

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

As to the hybrid, I imagine it's gonna be run with a bit. If you want it, the fact The Doctor dethroned Gallifrey's head-of-state could be construed as having left it in ruin.

After that, The General referred to The Doctor as Lord President, so it seems as well as being President of the World, he's also now President of Gallifrey. And he's half Time Lord, half human.

Next year's big bad will be Time-Trump demanding to see his birth certificate.

kylith

While I agree that RTD's constant universe peril couldn't be sustained a bit of peril wouldn't hurt. After all, time is supposed to fracture if fixed points are messed with. How great would that have been? Time falling apart as the episode finished and the next season being the doctor trying to figure out how and why, while having no clue about what happened with Clara.

Sure it'll all be fine because she can go back to Gallifrey and get put back in at her death but who's to say she doesn't fly into a sun, or get fed into a meat grinder, or her TARDIS runs out of petrol on some backwater moon?

And the Doctor really didn't notice or wonder about the fact that there was a painting of the waitress he'd just been talking to on the front of the TARDIS? Really? Not so much as a raised eyebrow?

Eugene Norman

kylith wrote: »

While I agree that RTD's constant universe peril couldn't be sustained a bit of peril wouldn't hurt. After all, time is supposed to fracture if fixed points are messed with. How great would that have been? Time falling apart as the episode finished and the next season being the doctor trying to figure out how and why, while having no clue about what happened with Clara.

Sure it'll all be fine because she can go back to Gallifrey and get put back in at her death but who's to say she doesn't fly into a sun, or get fed into a meat grinder, or her TARDIS runs out of petrol on some backwater moon?

And the Doctor really didn't notice or wonder about the fact that there was a painting of the waitress he'd just been talking to on the front of the TARDIS? Really? Not so much as a raised eyebrow?

Moffat is a clever boy. He said he had no season arcs this year but there's the hybrid. And I doubt that's finished yet. He also made it clear that it wasn't yet established who the hybrid is? Me, the Doctor or the Doctor and Clara? Something else? It must be something big to threathen Gallifrey.

It's a two season arc. At least.

Of course the doctor noticed that the girl in the restaurant was on the tardis. He also probably noticed that the restaurant disappeared and left the tardis (lost until then) behind. It's just, the episode ended.

And fair play to Moffats misdirection. The doctor worrying about Clara. The references to the longest month. The time she was in the dalek and mysteriously escaped. Missy and Clara. Jenny Coleman saying she is leaving. All misdirection or lies.


Clara is not a companion but will be a recurring character. Me as well.

Which means we get capaldi on his own in many episodes ( no better doctor for that) and Jenny Coleman pops in, like a captain jack, every so often. Win win for me.

Penn

kylith wrote: »

While I agree that RTD's constant universe peril couldn't be sustained a bit of peril wouldn't hurt. After all, time is supposed to fracture if fixed points are messed with. How great would that have been? Time falling apart as the episode finished and the next season being the doctor trying to figure out how and why, while having no clue about what happened with Clara.

Sure it'll all be fine because she can go back to Gallifrey and get put back in at her death but who's to say she doesn't fly into a sun, or get fed into a meat grinder, or her TARDIS runs out of petrol on some backwater moon?

And the Doctor really didn't notice or wonder about the fact that there was a painting of the waitress he'd just been talking to on the front of the TARDIS? Really? Not so much as a raised eyebrow?

Once problems start occurring due to Clara not being dead, she'll either return to Gallifrey or the Time Lords will bring her back (either through bringing the Tardis back as Clara/Me can't hide it like the Doctor could, or will hunt her down, as like the Doctor said, he had to wipe her memory of him or they'd be able to find her).

I really doubt Clara will ever come back. To me, the ending was more of a happy send off for her than a hint she'll be a recurring character in the future.

Eugene Norman

Penn wrote: »

Once problems start occurring due to Clara not being dead, she'll either return to Gallifrey or the Time Lords will bring her back (either through bringing the Tardis back as Clara/Me can't hide it like the Doctor could, or will hunt her down, as like the Doctor said, he had to wipe her memory of him or they'd be able to find her).

I really doubt Clara will ever come back. To me, the ending was more of a happy send off for her than a hint she'll be a recurring character in the future.

It's pretty odd giving her a time machine if that's the case. She's got a tardis. This isn't giving her time to live out a human life and then returning to London (via Gallifrey) to die.

Also the time lords are time locked.

Penn

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's pretty odd giving her a time machine if that's the case. She's got a tardis. This isn't giving her time to live out a human life and then returning to London (via Gallifrey) to die.

Also the time lords are time locked.

Time Lords aren't time locked. They got out of the pocket universe The Doctor put them in. They're hiding at the edge of the universe to rebuild their strength.

As for Clara, again, I think it was just a way of giving her a send off which fits her character. She could never return to a normal life. She became so like the Doctor that they've essentially given her a way to be the Doctor for a while. But ultimately she knows she has to face the raven. She's just going to enjoy herself for a bit first. And if The Doctor and her did meet again, he'd have less incentive to save her because he doesn't remember her. He might know what she looks like now, but he doesn't remember anything else about her. Given that time could fracture if she lives too long, he'd bring her back to die.

It's essentially the same kind of ending Rose and Martha had. They're now having adventures of their own but likely won't meet the Doctor again.

The_Valeyard

Wibbs wrote: »

It seems she's like Capt Jack a fixed point in time and can't die. Unless time "heals itself" and her heart starts again. Or something.

Something something........timey wimey, wibbly, wobbly

martingriff

I liked the episode it was confusing. I think Clara is gone and I do not think she will pop up again. I think the doctor knew who's memory would be erased he set it up that way as otherwise he would always try to find her. I think the who point of him not remembering even when its in front of him is the memory wipe is not a memory wipe but a memory block and the brain will try to explain the obvious in any way other then what it is alla Donna.

As or the other Tardis we could see ME in that from time to time

FloatingVoter

In the land of reality, it all depends on how the acting careers of Jenna Coleman / Maisie Williams pan out. If either or both of them start vying for Oscars then we can be sure they won't be making any kind of return. At least not for some time to come.
And they'll be back in a flash if the job centre beckons.

SparklersJo

Eehhh...the Doctor SHOT someone!!! With a GUN!!!! How was that ever allowed to happen??!!

Don't care that he thought/knew the person would regenerate; the Doctor is not armed. The Doctor does not use weapons.

Wilfred begged the Doctor to take his gun, when he knew he'd be in mortal danger. Begged and begged, and gave really good reasons why he should take it, and the Doctor wouldn't even consider it...even though he was going towards mortal danger!

They even did a thing at the start of the episode about the Doctor not being armed - they explicitly mentioned it!

Not impressed with that turn of events. The Doctor does not use weapons.

ixoy

SparklersJo wrote: »

Not impressed with that turn of events. The Doctor does not use weapons.

Umm that was the whole point of the episode. He knew he broke all his own rules and he had to stop himself.

Das Kitty

SparklersJo wrote: »

Eehhh...the Doctor SHOT someone!!! With a GUN!!!! How was that ever allowed to happen??!!

Don't care that he thought/knew the person would regenerate; the Doctor is not armed. The Doctor does not use weapons.

Wilfred begged the Doctor to take his gun, when he knew he'd be in mortal danger. Begged and begged, and gave really good reasons why he should take it, and the Doctor wouldn't even consider it...even though he was going towards mortal danger!

They even did a thing at the start of the episode about the Doctor not being armed - they explicitly mentioned it!

Not impressed with that turn of events. The Doctor does not use weapons.

An opportunity to post my favourite video!

Turn down the sound if you don't like swearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74

SparklersJo

ixoy wrote: »

Umm that was the whole point of the episode. He knew he broke all his own rules and he had to stop himself.

Yeah but this is different. The other rules he broke were all ones of time and space and Time Lords and stuff. He's gone through phases before of 'not being answerable to anybody' and him being the 'highest power' and saving lives when he's not supposed to [Waters of Mars] and taking actions for his own benefit and stuff...but it has always been a notable characteristic of all Doctors, through all series that he is not armed, nor uses weapons.

There always so much talk about how it's a kids show, and that that is one of the defining lessons - the Doctor uses his smarts to get out of any troublesome situation. He never even considers using a weapon. I think that was a step too far for the writers in breaking character. Even if he was 'breaking all his rules'.

It's one thing to hold a gun a threaten people, but to actually shoot and kill someone. It's way too out of character.

Just my opinion

ixoy

SparklersJo wrote: »

It's one thing to hold a gun a threaten people, but to actually shoot and kill someone. It's way too out of character.

It *is* completely out of character which is why I thought it was perfect. The Doctor just never does that - he's the smartest guy in the room, he encourages brain over brawn. But he has committed acts of violence for others - this was just much more personal. I honestly didn't think he would shoot but the episode made a good deal of the fact that he did.