Porn Superstar James Deen Accused Of "Rape" On Twitter Faces Ruin. Is This Fair?

Tarzana2

Red Kev wrote: »

Well, there is. If proven incorrect then it's defamation and/or libel and he can sue them into bankruptcy.

Do you mean making statement on social media or in court? If it emerges that false accusations were made, then there should be consequences for the accuser. And definitely no statements should ever be made on social media.

But cases of sexual assault can be difficult to prove and I'd hate to think of genuine victims being dissuaded from reporting sexual crimes for fear that there might not be enough evidence for conviction and that they might then be accused of making a false allegation.

VisibleGorilla

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

Cos its really that simple?

I'll tell you guys for nothing, and I don't usually talk about this, I have been sexually assaulted. And I will tell you, your first thought is not 'to the hospital, to the police, to social media' whatever, your first thought is crazy fear, anxiety, curl up into a ball and just be afraid. Just because these guys didn't immediately run to the police doesn't make it attention seekers, and I'll say again, you guys and your poor attitude is not a good thing.

What attitude are you talking about? There is an allegation, nothing more... there is no reason to believe it is true or false at this stage.

Too often people cry rape with zero evidence and the accused is judged guilty, same thing seems to be happening here.

If she was raped she should have went directly to the police - she didn't, why?

MilesMorales1

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

What attitude are you talking about? There is an allegation, nothing more... there is no reason to believe it is true or false at this stage.

Too often people cry rape with zero evidence and the accused is judged guilty, same thing seems to be happening here.

If she was raped she should have went directly to the police - she didn't, why?

Did you read my post?

The gross attitude of 'She might be faking' 'Might be a PR stunt for her career' 'if she didn't go to the authorities straight away it clearly didn't happen' 'they could get sued for libel' etc

Its actually gross. Of course we shouldn't assume this chap is guilty till proven innocent, but we shouldn't also start diminishing the accusers before any sort of legal process, like what you guys are doing.

tritium

Penn wrote: »

There are a number of possible factors at play here:

a) They may have known that there likely wouldn't be enough evidence to make a report to the authorities
b) They may have known that, because of the industry they're in, their accusations would probably be shrugged off as "Pfft... you're in porn", which, not for nothing, is exactly what's happening
c) They may have realised that their only course of action given an official report would probably have come to nothing would be to blacken his name publicly through social media
d) They likely did so even in the knowledge that they would be opening themselves up to a world of online abuse, which is exactly what's happening

Now, whether they were right or wrong to name him, and whether the accusations are true or not, saying that they're calling this guy a rapist for their own publicity, is quite the accusation to level at them with no basis other than "Pfft... you're in porn"

It might be said that your (entirely hypothetical) scenarios above, given they all point to only one conclusion about the allegation, are also quite the accusation in the absence of anything but a twitter allegation.....

Delirium

orubiru wrote: »

But wouldn't you agree that Twitter is the wrong place to make such allegations?

A lot of people have done a lot of work to encourage victims of sexual assault to speak up and speak out. However, the intention was not to encourage people to just publicly start flinging allegations around. The intention was to have them report these crimes to police and have them investigated.

People are not saying "speak up about abuse" to raise awareness that these crimes happen. The goal is to put rapists and abusers in prison, get their names on a sex offenders register, and protect other people from them. The goal is not to just shame them and allow them to keep their head down until it all blows over.

If there are no criminal charges then you are basically giving this guy the opportunity to "play the victim" himself by saying that he has been falsely accused by people looking to push a political agenda. He will get sympathy. Other potential victims will be discouraged from speaking out.

If there are no criminal charges then everybody loses and the discussion just goes around in circles. He said, she said. Nobody is going to change their point of view. Everyone seems to be just become further entrenched in their views.

Nobody wins in this situation and the absolute worst case scenario is that they are just putting the idea in people's heads that false allegations are far more widespread and common than they actually are.

The best case scenario is that the police investigate the allegations and the whole situation reaches a correct and legal conclusion.

I don't know if he did it or not. Only the people directly involved can know that.

We are talking about a serious crime here. The police should be involved, if they are not already.

Taking any kind of serious criminal allegation to Twitter is, in my opinion, absolutely counter productive and, as witnessed on this thread, totally detrimental to the society wide discussion that needs to be had regarding rape.

The correct procedure would be contact the police and report the rape when it happened.

We don't know why the women didn't report it. Maybe they considered the possibility of not being taken seriously due to them working in porn (as evidenced in this thread), which is what I was challenging.

BattleCorp

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

Cos its really that simple?

I'll tell you guys for nothing, and I don't usually talk about this, I have been sexually assaulted. And I will tell you, your first thought is not 'to the hospital, to the police, to social media' whatever, your first thought is crazy fear, anxiety, curl up into a ball and just be afraid. Just because these guys didn't immediately run to the police doesn't make it attention seekers, and I'll say again, you guys and your poor attitude is not a good thing.

Sorry to hear that you were sexually assaulted, not a nice thing to happen and I wish only bad things to whoever did that to you.

That said, I don't think that I have a poor attitude. Surely it's good advice to go to hospital or the police or both after being raped?

I agree with you that somebody who was raped would suffer from fear, anxiety and would be in a confused state. I do think that the girls made a mistake in not going to the police with their allegations before they went to social media. Maybe being confused caused the girls to go through the wrong channel to make allegations against James Deen.

I'm not saying that their allegations are without foundation, I simply don't know.

One eyed Jack

Delirium wrote: »

The correct procedure would be contact the police and report the rape when it happened.

We don't know why the women didn't report it. Maybe they considered the possibility of not being taken seriously due to them working in porn (as evidenced in this thread), which is what I was challenging.

No, there's a world of a difference between not taking their allegations on social media seriously, and not taking a report to the authorities seriously.

The fact that they thought they wouldn't be taken seriously by the authorities is on them, nobody else. They're perpetuating that myth, not anyone else.

orubiru

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

From the linked article

"A few people with whom I’ve shared this story over the years have asked me why I didn’t call the police as soon as it happened, or publicly speak up about it shortly thereafter. The reason for that is because people—including the police—tend to believe that sex workers have placed themselves in harm’s way, and therefore can’t be assaulted."

So there you go. Judging by some of the disgusting attitudes in this thread in fact, I can believe it.

One of the mechanisms that allows crime to flourish and prosper in certain communities is the perpetuation of the belief that the authorities are either unwilling or unable to help.

It is an undeniable fact that people are charged, tried and found guilty of rape and sexual assault etc. They are sent to prison and they are put on sex offenders registers. Saying that "the police can't do anything" is not only false but HIGHLY counter productive.

Look at the Ched Evans case in the UK. The victim went to the cops and, despite the fact that many believe he was innocent, the case went to court, he was found guilty and sentenced to five years in prison and will be on the sex offenders register indefinitely.

If she had not gone to the cops then the guy would have been free to just continue doing whatever he was doing.

Perpetuating the myth that the police won't or can't do anything basically just makes the situation a whole lot worse, doesn't it? You are effectively giving the criminals free rein to continue committing their crimes unimpeded.

There is a contradiction there that we have to untangle before any real progress can be made. We are basically saying "Victims, please speak up and speak out" while simultaneously telling them that nobody can, or will, do anything to help them. "Speak out against injustice but remember that nobody is going to help you when you do".

Going to the police allows for the possibility that a rapist will be caught, convicted and punished. Going to Twitter allows for the possibility that a rapist can "play the victim" and garner sympathy from those who fear that they will one day be falsely accused.

Going to the police creates a chance that potential future victims will be protected and it increases the ability to prevent further crimes. Going to Twitter perpetuates the idea that future victims can't turn to the authorities for help.

Kev W

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They're perpetuating that myth, not anyone else.

Really? Not anyone?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Who believes them, other idiots on twitter?

There aren't going to be too many will take a blind bit of notice of anyone in this scenario tbh.

MilesMorales1

orubiru wrote: »

One of the mechanisms that allows crime to flourish and prosper in certain communities is the perpetuation of the belief that the authorities are either unwilling or unable to help.

It is an undeniable fact that people are charged, tried and found guilty of rape and sexual assault etc. They are sent to prison and they are put on sex offenders registers. Saying that "the police can't do anything" is not only false but HIGHLY counter productive.

Look at the Ched Evans case in the UK. The victim went to the cops and, despite the fact that many believe he was innocent, the case went to court, he was found guilty and sentenced to five years in prison and will be on the sex offenders register indefinitely.

If she had not gone to the cops then the guy would have been free to just continue doing whatever he was doing.

Perpetuating the myth that the police won't or can't do anything basically just makes the situation a whole lot worse, doesn't it? You are effectively giving the criminals free rein to continue committing their crimes unimpeded.

There is a contradiction there that we have to untangle before any real progress can be made. We are basically saying "Victims, please speak up and speak out" while simultaneously telling them that nobody can, or will, do anything to help them. "Speak out against injustice but remember that nobody is going to help you when you do".

Going to the police allows for the possibility that a rapist will be caught, convicted and punished. Going to Twitter allows for the possibility that a rapist can "play the victim" and garner sympathy from those who fear that they will one day be falsely accused.

Going to the police creates a chance that potential future victims will be protected and it increases the ability to prevent further crimes. Going to Twitter perpetuates the idea that future victims can't turn to the authorities for help.

I'm not denying that. Doesn't make it any easier to do once its happened to you though.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

There are a number of possible factors at play here:

a) They may have known that there likely wouldn't be enough evidence to make a report to the authorities
b) They may have known that, because of the industry they're in, their accusations would probably be shrugged off as "Pfft... you're in porn", which, not for nothing, is exactly what's happening
c) They may have realised that their only course of action given an official report would probably have come to nothing would be to blacken his name publicly through social media
d) They likely did so even in the knowledge that they would be opening themselves up to a world of online abuse, which is exactly what's happening

Now, whether they were right or wrong to name him, and whether the accusations are true or not, saying that they're calling this guy a rapist for their own publicity, is quite the accusation to level at them with no basis other than "Pfft... you're in porn"

tritium wrote: »

It might be said that your (entirely hypothetical) scenarios above, given they all point to only one conclusion about the allegation, are also quite the accusation in the absence of anything but a twitter allegation.....

I've highlighted parts of my post which were made intentionally with the purpose of making the point that we don't know what happened or didn't happen, or their reasoning behind making these accusations on Twitter. My point was, their accusations, whether true or not, are largely being dismissed because of who they are as opposed to what they're saying.

Delirium

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, there's a world of a difference between not taking their allegations on social media seriously, and not taking a report to the authorities seriously.

But you went beyond that....

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sorry, no, of course I don't think porn stars can't be raped, and of course it's important that a person who is raped is taken seriously. I'm just not inclined to take anyone too seriously that makes those sorts of allegations against anyone else on social media.

Considering the industry they're all in, it strikes me as more a stupid publicity stunt than anything I should be likely to get too worked up over is all.

The fact that they thought they wouldn't be taken seriously by the authorities is on them, nobody else. They're perpetuating that myth, not anyone else.

So you see no problem with people suggesting that "women are lying about rape to further their career" / "well it's probably a PR stunt"?

Does that sort of attitude not increase the likelihood that women won't report when they've been raped?

One eyed Jack

Kev W wrote: »

Really? Not anyone?

That point was based on the fact that they made the allegations on social media. I wouldn't have made the same point at all if they had made a report to the authorities.

Why would I lend any weight to allegations made by someone on social media without having first made any attempt to approach the authorities?

If they were worried about not being believed by the authorities, then what would suggest that they would be taken any more seriously by anyone on social media who can do absolutely nothing about their allegations?

What do you think that's supposed to achieve?

I don't see it achieving anything only encouraging people to make allegations on social media, instead of going to the authorities.

That's what's stupid IMO, and puts back work done by victim support organisations and the authorities, decades.

smoking_kills

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That point was based on the fact that they made the allegations on social media. I wouldn't have made the same point at all if they had made a report to the authorities.

Why would I lend any weight to allegations made by someone on social media without having first made any attempt to approach the authorities?

If they were worried about not being believed by the authorities, then what would suggest that they would be taken any more seriously by anyone on social media who can do absolutely nothing about their allegations?

What do you think that's supposed to achieve?

I don't see it achieving anything only encouraging people to make allegations on social media, instead of going to the authorities.

That's what's stupid IMO, and puts back work done by victim support organisations and the authorities, decades.

Twitter or Facebook is going to get Sued over something like this. The sooner the better too.

One eyed Jack

Delirium wrote: »

But you went beyond that....






So you see no problem with people suggesting that "women are lying about rape to further their career" / "well it's probably a PR stunt"?

Does that sort of attitude not increase the likelihood that women won't report when they've been raped?

It's like you can't tell the difference between an allegation against a person made on social media, and an actual report to police that they were raped. Given that they made no report to the authorities, I can assume that the women in this case were engaging in a publicity stunt.

No I don't think that attitude discourages anyone (man or woman) from making a report to the authorities, because those men and women aren't working in the porn industry where allegations of rape and sexual assault are often trivialised by performers.

Kev W

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That point was based on the fact that they made the allegations on social media. I wouldn't have made the same point at all if they had made a report to the authorities.

Why would I lend any weight to allegations made by someone on social media without having first made any attempt to approach the authorities?

If they were worried about not being believed by the authorities, then what would suggest that they would be taken any more seriously by anyone on social media who can do absolutely nothing about their allegations?

What do you think that's supposed to achieve?

I don't see it achieving anything only encouraging people to make allegations on social media, instead of going to the authorities.

That's what's stupid IMO, and puts back work done by victim support organisations and the authorities, decades.

If you read the actual tweets, Stoya got sick of people praising her rapist as a feminist and boy-next-door sweetheart and having to "just(...) nod and smile when people bring him up". She felt she had to say something and Twitter is a venue for saying things.

Kev W

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's like you can't tell the difference between an allegation against a person made on social media, and an actual report to police that they were raped. Given that they made no report to the authorities, I can assume that the women in this case were engaging in a publicity stunt.

No I don't think that attitude discourages anyone (man or woman) from making a report to the authorities, because those men and women aren't working in the porn industry where allegations of rape and sexual assault are often trivialised by performers.

You can indeed assume that. You should not and have no reason to, but you are clearly capable, for whatever reasons you may have.

c_man

Kev W wrote: »

If you reads the actual tweets, Stoya got sick of people praising her rapist as a feminist and boy-next-door sweetheart and having to "just(...) nod and smile when people bring him up". She felt she had to say something and Twitter is a venue for saying things.

Well I guess it works at least. His guilt has already been decided.

Kev W

c_man wrote: »

Well I guess it works at least. His guilt has already been decided.

I was speaking in the terms given in the tweet.

One eyed Jack

Kev W wrote: »

You can indeed assume that. You should not and have no reason to, but you are clearly capable, for whatever reasons you may have.

Thanks Kev, I appreciate your giving me permission to think for myself


Seriously though, I gave my reasons, numerous times in this thread already, and people are still attempting to twist what I've said and try amd put words in my mouth.

I don't have any bad attitude towards women, I just don't have any time for anyone who makes allegations of rape against anyone on social media rather than going to the authorities first.

orubiru

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

I'm not denying that. Doesn't make it any easier to do once its happened to you though.

No doubt but this is where society has to step in and help.

Victims need support.

Forget random jokes or tweets from "misogynists". It's all just background noise. Ignore it.

What we need to see is a process where society actively teaches people how to deal with situations like this.

Yeah, it's never easy for the individual to cope with what has happened but the culture we live in can certainly make it easier.

When someone takes to Twitter to make an allegation of rape and doesn't go to the police based on the, demonstrably false, belief that they can't or won't help then that is a failure of our culture. The culture itself has managed to convince a woman that calling the police is useless but speaking out on Twitter is to be applauded. It's a miserable state of affairs.

So who is responsible for that? Who has been telling women and girls that the police can't or won't help rape victims? Who has been telling them that the law condones rape and just lets rapists walk away without facing any consequences?

That's where the problem lies. We need to dismantle that kind of delusional and negative thinking and teach people about the reality of dealing with these kinds of things. We need to stop telling women that nobody cares enough to help them and start giving them rational, functional, advice.

Otherwise, we just go around and around. The problem with Twitter is than when something as serious as this is posted you are still gonna get daft idiots who think a bit of trolling is a good laugh. It creates a false impression of the world. It's depressing as f*ck. Most people are more than willing to help, the police are absolutely willing and well equipped to help.

Victims should be encouraged to reach out to the authorities that can offer the most effective assistance. Instead they are, apparently, encouraged to post statements on social media.

Delirium

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's like you can't tell the difference between an allegation against a person made on social media, and an actual report to police that they were raped. Given that they made no report to the authorities, I can assume that the women in this case were engaging in a publicity stunt.

Because those are the only two options? That falls back to the position that anyone who claims to be raped and doesn't report it is a liar.

That's not going to help people who have been raped feel confident of reporting if they're working from the default of being classed as liars.

No I don't think that attitude discourages anyone (man or woman) from making a report to the authorities, because those men and women aren't working in the porn industry where allegations of rape and sexual assault are often trivialised by performers.

And the people who work in porn be damned even though they may never have made porn that contains a rape scene?

By introducing the qualification that some people are not to be believed due to profession, that means others may rethink reporting due to their work or having an active sex life.

smash

It's not just a single tweet, there's been multiple allegations now, including this one:

"Lux alleged that Deen assaulted her. "He proceeded to straddle my chest, pinning down my arms with his knees," she recalled. "Then, he raised his hand high above his head, swinging it down and hitting me in the face and head with an open palm. He did this five or six times—hard—before finally getting off of me."

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/after-rape-accusations-female-porn-stars-stand-in-solidarity-against-james-deen

Lux23

I don't think its fair at all. If he is guilty then its not fair that his victims may not see real justice, if he is innocent then its unfair to drag his name through the dirt.

Kev W

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Thanks Kev, I appreciate your giving me permission to think for myself

I agreed that you can come to your own conclusions. Agreeing isn't the same as giving "permission". But if you need that win, you can have it.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Seriously though, I gave my reasons, numerous times in this thread already, and people are still attempting to twist what I've said and try amd put words in my mouth.

Quoting you isn't putting words in your mouth. The words come from you.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't have any bad attitude towards women,

You are of course the best person to make that judgement.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I just don't have any time for anyone who makes allegations of rape against anyone on social media rather than going to the authorities first.

Enough time to insinuate multiple times that they are liars and should not be listened to, but no more than that, right?

One eyed Jack

Delirium wrote: »

Because those are the only two options? That falls back to the position that anyone who claims to be raped and doesn't report it is a liar.

That's not going to help people who have been raped feel confident of reporting if they're working from the default of being classed as liars.

You're making it very hard to have any chance of a discussion if you're not even willing to read what I wrote, instead of substituting it for your own script.

And the people who work in porn be damned even though they may never have made porn that contains a rape scene?

By introducing the qualification that some people are not to be believed due to profession, that means others may rethink reporting due to their work or having an active sex life.

That's the only possible outcome? I'm not the person who introduced that belief btw, that belief was perpetuated by these women themselves.

Kev W

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's the only possible outcome? I'm not the person who introduced that belief btw, that belief was perpetuated by these women themselves.

Why do you suppose they held that belief?

newport2

Lux23 wrote: »

I don't think its fair at all. If he is guilty then its not fair that his victims may not see real justice, if he is innocent then its unfair to drag his name through the dirt.

If he is guilty then this may get him off the hook for this and any other similar offences. His defense could surely now rightly claim that there is no way for him to get a fair trial after all the media attention generated by the social media allegations.

Delirium

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're making it very hard to have any chance of a discussion if you're not even willing to read what I wrote, instead of substituting it for your own script.

you said:

Given that they made no report to the authorities, I can assume that the women in this case were engaging in a publicity stunt.

How is asking a question substituting anything?

I asked if those were only two options, i.e. make a report or lying (based on what you posted). Granted I expanded a bit on the lying part of the question, but it was still a question nonetheless.

Is it not also possible they are telling the truth about their rapes?

That's the only possible outcome? I'm not the person who introduced that belief btw, that belief was perpetuated by these women themselves.

Never said it was the only outcome, just that some people who have been raped may not report their rape due to statements such as the type expressed by yourself.

LoonyLovegood

I saw Stoya's tweet and wasn't surprised, there's been rumours online for a while that Deen wasn't the nicest human being. But to criticise someone for their alleged rape because of their career is ridiculous. People are forgetting that at the time they were in a relationship, and it wasn't too long ago that people thought you couldn't be raped by a romantic partner.