Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

greenspurs

And away from the name calling and smart ar$e$...

Thomastown very unlucky in the Camogie semi final against Slaughtneil going down after Extra time.
Final score 0-14 to 0-11.
Thomastown were down by 0-09 to 0-02 at half time, and the wind played its part.

in the other Semi Final , Sarsfields of Galways just edged out Tipperary’s Burgess-Duharra 0-10 to 0-9 in Banagher to set up a repeat of last year’s Final.

Powerhouse

danganabu wrote: »

That a bit ott now. Galway, Tipp and Waterford just about ahead of KK but 6 or 7, not a chance.

So Wexford beating them in the championship last year and Cork reaching an All-Ireland semi-final last year counts for nothing? There is a strong argument that there are five counties ahead of Kilkenny anyway. Not necessarily by much but ahead on the basis of results anyway.

Like I said this there could be a very different outlook and attitude in a few weeks depending in how results go, but for some reason you seem to see such an observation as ironic.

Powerhouse

Interesting take on this from one of Ireland's leading hurling writers.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/comment-codys-time-as-top-cat-has-come-to-an-end-the-legendary-manager-should-be-moved-to-a-director-role-36540340.html

danganabu

Powerhouse wrote: »

So Wexford beating them in the championship last year and Cork reaching an All-Ireland semi-final last year counts for nothing? There is a strong argument that there are five counties ahead of Kilkenny anyway. Not necessarily by much but ahead on the basis of results anyway.

Like I said this there could be a very different outlook and attitude in a few weeks depending in how results go, but for some reason you seem to see such an observation as ironic.

So you agree with me then, there isn't 6 or 7 and the original statement was OTT.

KK V Wexford in a knock-out championship match in Croker, I know where my money would be.

On a strict form line using Waterford then KK are still ahead of Cork, its 50/50 at best.

There may very well be a different attitude in a few weeks, that would be from people with no grasp on reality, its the League in January FFS. Galway stumbled over Antrim, Waterford had their arses handed to them by Wexford and Tipp were beaten by Clare.........wont make one iota of a differnce come July when the real hurling starts. Glorified challenge matched is what we have at the minute.

Powerhouse

babyjesus14 wrote: »

I genuinely wouldn't waste my time even having a discussion with someone like him, he makes absolutely no sense!

He's offering an opinion. The question of what "makes sense" is purely subjective. Surely the lack of validity of an opinion is demonstrated only by taking it on and pointing out where his comments lack sense. Is that not what a discussion board is about?

Topcat32

Powerhouse wrote: »

Interesting take on this from one of Ireland's leading hurling writers.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/comment-codys-time-as-top-cat-has-come-to-an-end-the-legendary-manager-should-be-moved-to-a-director-role-36540340.html

I'm not sure about the leading hurling writer, mixes the good with the bad on gaa and is better on other sports in my opinion.

The difference for me is that Cody has been quick to drop some of the outstanding older players from the team, some might even argue too quick, Mick O Dwyer said in the recent documentary that he went too long with the old players, I don't think Cody has done that.

Was always going to be hard for any manager after the best team we had faded away. In my opinion Cody staying on to take the main hit of the team regressing and the challenge of putting a new team together will make it far easier for his successor than if he left after the all ireland finals in either 2015 or 2016.

brookville

greenspurs wrote: »

And away from the name calling and smart ar$e$...

Thomastown very unlucky in the Camogie semi final against Slaughtneil going down after Extra time.
Final score 0-14 to 0-11.
Thomastown were down by 0-09 to 0-02 at half time, and the wind played its part.

in the other Semi Final , Sarsfields of Galways just edged out Tipperary’s Burgess-Duharra 0-10 to 0-9 in Banagher to set up a repeat of last year’s Final.

Ballyragget are up against kanturk sunday it has the makings of a good match.hopefully kevin Kelly will be back in know his in a race against time to be fit they'll definitely need him if there to win.

Powerhouse

danganabu wrote: »

1) So you agree with me then, there isn't 6 or 7 and the original statement was OTT

2) There may very well be a different attitude in a few weeks, that would be from people with no grasp on reality, its the League in January FFS. .

1) Spoken like a legendary Keyboard Warrior. Never mind the nuance or the broader point - stick it to the c*nt on any technicality you can. The b*stard'll count the counties next time.

2) Whether it suits you or not people do react to results. The commentary here would be far different if Kilkenny had had it in them, as they had so often in the past, to kick on late in the game when it was up fro grabs on Saturday night. It was, what, Cork's third win in the last 12 League games against Kilkenny? If you think that was pure coincidence and not further indication of shifting in the pecking order you are delusional. In the same way, Kilkenny would not have lost a Walsh Cup final to Wexford a few years back.

It doesn't mean that Kilkenny are hopeless I think there's little enough between several teams but for someone like yourself to deny that they have slipped a fair bit back into the pack is just ultra-conservative thinking.

danganabu

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) Spoken like a legendary Keyboard Warrior. Never mind the nuance or the broader point - stick it to the c*nt on any technicality you can. The b*stard'll count the counties next time.

2) Whether it suits you or not people do react to results. The commentary here would be far different if Kilkenny had had it in them, as they had so often in the past, to kick on late in the game when it was up fro grabs on Saturday night. It was, what, Cork's third win in the last 12 League games against Kilkenny? If you think that was pure coincidence and not further indication of shifting in the pecking order you are delusional. In the same way, Kilkenny would not have lost a Walsh Cup final to Wexford a few years back.

It doesn't mean that Kilkenny are hopeless I think there's little enough between several teams but for someone like yourself to deny that they have slipped a fair bit back into the pack is just ultra-conservative thinking.

Your first sentence Im fcuked if I know what you're raving about, I merely pointed out that I felt the original point was hyperbole, didnt stick anything to Village and I certainly didnt infer he was a cnut as you so eloquently put it, Village and myself have exchanged differing views many times but we are both adults, might be something in that you can take from

I have never denied that KK have regressed, its not exactly rocket science now is it :rolleyes: and I am not from KK so your claim that my thinking is ultra conservative is a little wide of the mark.

babyjesus14

Powerhouse wrote: »

He's offering an opinion. The question of what "makes sense" is purely subjective. Surely the lack of validity of an opinion is demonstrated only by taking it on and pointing out where his comments lack sense. Is that not what a discussion board is about?

It might be worth "taking it on" if he was capable of calm and reasoned analysis but when he starts ranting and questioning the commitment of players who have been competing and succeeding at the elite level in sport he's better off ignored!

babyjesus14

Powerhouse wrote: »

Interesting take on this from one of Ireland's leading hurling writers.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/comment-codys-time-as-top-cat-has-come-to-an-end-the-legendary-manager-should-be-moved-to-a-director-role-36540340.html

I assume you are being sarcastic? This is not the first time this individual has written an article looking for attention, wrote a personally quite insulting article on the Mayo football management team after the drawn All Ireland semi against Kerry last year and then was made look like a complete fool when they won the replay easily five days later.

I notice in his article he doesn't suggest any alternatives, i wonder why? I would guess because he actually doesn't have any.

Powerhouse

danganabu wrote: »

I have never denied that KK have regressed, its not exactly rocket science now is it :rolleyes: and I am not from KK so your claim that my thinking is ultra conservative is a little wide of the mark.

Rocket science maybe not, but confusing enough for some it seems. I don't get your suggestion that because your not from Kilkenny you cannot be ultra-conservative in your thinking. You remind me of a guy that would still nod and wink whenever Clare won a significant game even as later as 2006 as if the team of a decade earlier was still there waiting to reveal itself.

danganabu

Powerhouse wrote: »

I don't think this is an obvious outcome at all. Kilkenny's first game is away to Cork who had a patchy enough Munster League campaign so might not hit the ground running. Kilkenny, by contrast, have two tough dogged matches behind them recently which will help.

Then they are at home to Clare which is winnable. They might well have four points after two games. They also have Wexford at home and based on yesterday would have a huge chance of winning that. They also do not have to play Galway as they are in the lower division.

Kilkenny, at this point, are as likely to be the play-offs as in relegation contention.

Powerhouse wrote: »

Rocket science maybe not, but confusing enough for some it seems.

Amazing the way you have changed your mind completely in a week! You just love contradicting people and looking for an argument, I was a bigger fool for taking the bait.

Dionysis

I understand people on here not wanting to be seen to take a shot at the kk side but we h ave to face reality. The kk side that Cody will have to name in the championship this year will most likely be the weakest side since 1995/ 1989/1990. And may even be weaker than them. Tipp, Galway, Waterford, Cork, Wexford and Clare have all beaten us handy over the past 12 months and you wouldn’t automatically say we will beat them if we meet them this year. That puts us 7th in the rankings. An unbelievable fall from grace. And with that we have lads who have all Ireland medals struggling to make the first team. You cannot tell me that such a situation is acceptable for them.

We have a couple of youngsters with high ability and others who will never make it. Calling out a lack of the basics at inter county level is not a disservice to the player, it’s a disservice to the county to leave him there. Others are too soft and Saturday night showed that.
Note, that a lot of 5hese young lads played most of the younger Waterford lads in 2013 and 2014 at minor and have since been left far behind them.
We were well beaten by Wexford in league, championship and Walsh cup over the past 12months, and wexford showed far more bottle.
Our U-21s have regressed greatly since winning minor in 2014.

Unlike others I don’t blame Cody, he was not over these teams and I’ll say again, he’s been fcuksd over with the standard of hurler being handed over to him. The papers are wrong it’s underage mgmt are the issue.
I called that he get the youngsters in early and drive them, and that’s what’s he’s doing so I can’t say a thing against him now.
I’ll predict that kk will be in the game against tip but will be physically mauled by Clare, Waterford and probably Wexford, why, cos tip like cork will let us hurl, but the others are more physical and will tear into us, Tripp and cork make us look better than we are.
We have a decent amount of skill but badly lack - bottle, hunger, aggression, determination, drive.... even if not physically up to it at this stage the yo7nger lDs don’t seem to have 5hese qualities.

There is supposed to be a bar, to which all those wanting to play for kk should reach, we seem to be lowering that bar as someone else mentioned.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

I understand people on here not wanting to be seen to take a shot at the kk side but we h ave to face reality. The kk side that Cody will have to name in the championship this year will most likely be the weakest side since 1995/ 1989/1990. And may even be weaker than them. Tipp, Galway, Waterford, Cork, Wexford and Clare have all beaten us handy over the past 12 months and you wouldn’t automatically say we will beat them if we meet them this year. That puts us 7th in the rankings. An unbelievable fall from grace. And with that we have lads who have all Ireland medals struggling to make the first team. You cannot tell me that such a situation is acceptable for them.

We have a couple of youngsters with high ability and others who will never make it. Calling out a lack of the basics at inter county level is not a disservice to the player, it’s a disservice to the county to leave him there. Others are too soft and Saturday night showed that.
Note, that a lot of 5hese young lads played most of the younger Waterford lads in 2013 and 2014 at minor and have since been left far behind them.
We were well beaten by Wexford in league, championship and Walsh cup over the past 12months, and wexford showed far more bottle.
Our U-21s have regressed greatly since winning minor in 2014.

Unlike others I don’t blame Cody, he was not over these teams and I’ll say again, he’s been fcuksd over with the standard of hurler being handed over to him. The papers are wrong it’s underage mgmt are the issue.
I called that he get the youngsters in early and drive them, and that’s what’s he’s doing so I can’t say a thing against him now.
I’ll predict that kk will be in the game against tip but will be physically mauled by Clare, Waterford and probably Wexford, why, cos tip like cork will let us hurl, but the others are more physical and will tear into us, Tripp and cork make us look better than we are.
We have a decent amount of skill but badly lack - bottle, hunger, aggression, determination, drive.... even if not physically up to it at this stage the yo7nger lDs don’t seem to have 5hese qualities.

If you are not physically up to it as you put it, I think it's almost impossible to show those qualities and realistically they fell from 3rd in 2016 to 6th or 7th in 2017, dissapointing but not exactly an astonishing fall.

I think where the ball was dropped was the physical development between minor and under 21 over this decade, I thought even Westmeath were a more physical under 21 team than Kilkenny last year.

babyjesus14

Topcat32 wrote: »

If you are not physically up to it as you put it, I think it's almost impossible to show those qualities and realistically they fell from 3rd in 2016 to 6th or 7th in 2017, dissapointing but not exactly an astonishing fall.

I think where the ball was dropped was the physical development between minor and under 21 over this decade, I thought even Westmeath were a more physical under 21 team than Kilkenny last year.

Out of curiosity who are you placing ahead of us in '16? Considering we beat Waterford in the semi final and Galway Leinster final.

Topcat32

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Out of curiosity who are you placing ahead of us in '16? Considering we beat Waterford in the semi final and Galway Leinster final.

I think Galway reached a level in the Semi final that we didn't get to that year, in terms of consistency I take your point that Kilkenny were the second best team of the year in 2016.

Powerhouse

danganabu wrote: »

Amazing the way you have changed your mind completely in a week! You just love contradicting people and looking for an argument, I was a bigger fool for taking the bait.

Assuming you are an adult isn't it sad to have to search through previous posts to attempt to find an inconsistency to land a blow on an anonymous discussion board. Sadder still when you fail to recognise it for what it was.

There are two simple utterly compatible views espoused by me. 1) Kilkenny are not necessarily fourth in the rankings - it is at the very least arguable, on the basis of actual competitive results over the past nine months, that Cork and Wexford are ahead of them also and 2) there is nothing inevitable about Kilkenny being in a League relegation play-off. Wexford, who struggled to beat Kilkenny last week, beat Waterford more comfortably yesterday. Clare looked middling. Tipperary seem to need their absolute full team to be competitive. Kilkenny have at least a 50-50 chance against all those teams. That does not mean that their achievements in 2017 change and they deserve to be ranked above teams which clearly did better than them. The former was a different discussion altogether.

I know you are desperate (God knows why) to score points but there is no inconsistency in my views. I happily change my views when the evidence in front of me changes - you seem not so inclined - but I haven't done so in the last week anyway.

P.S. Funny to look at my profile and see the visitors to my profile page. Safe to say yourself and poor ould Charlie69 are having a meltdown. All fine too unless of course you are adults and should have more perspective towards internet chat. When you are reduced to researching people in this environment rather than just taking the benefit of anonymity to shoot the breeze without fear of rancour it is being taken far too seriously. Not everyone will have the same view of the world. Get over it.

catseye2

babyjesus14 wrote: »

I assume you are being sarcastic? This is not the first time this individual has written an article looking for attention, wrote a personally quite insulting article on the Mayo football management team after the drawn All Ireland semi against Kerry last year and then was made look like a complete fool when they won the replay easily five days later.

I notice in his article he doesn't suggest any alternatives, i wonder why? I would guess because he actually doesn't have any.

Much as I was encouraged by the display and hunger on saturday night shown by the young cats, we need to be a bit more open to alternative views.
I read this article and didnt find anything insulting in it. Just because he doesnt suggest any alternatives, doesnt mean there isnt a problem. This individual was brought up on kilkenny hurling and does show respect to the legend that is cody. He just has a view that it is time to let someone new run the team.
A good 2 points on sunday is the best answer to that

Topcat32

catseye2 wrote: »

Much as I was encouraged by the display and hunger on saturday night shown by the young cats, we need to be a bit more open to alternative views.
I read this article and didnt find anything insulting in it. Just because he doesnt suggest any alternatives, doesnt mean there isnt a problem. This individual was brought up on kilkenny hurling and does show respect to the legend that is cody. He just has a view that it is time to let someone new run the team.
A good 2 points on sunday is the best answer to that

I think he has total respect for Cody and Kilkenny hurling and I didn't find anything insulting but I just didn't see any actual argument for why Cody isn't the best person to be manager, he gave the example of Kerry footballers but as I understand it O Dwyer had tried to keep on going using the players who had brought him success, this isnt the case with the current Kilkenny team.

babyjesus14

catseye2 wrote: »

Much as I was encouraged by the display and hunger on saturday night shown by the young cats, we need to be a bit more open to alternative views.
I read this article and didnt find anything insulting in it. Just because he doesnt suggest any alternatives, doesnt mean there isnt a problem. This individual was brought up on kilkenny hurling and does show respect to the legend that is cody. He just has a view that it is time to let someone new run the team.
A good 2 points on sunday is the best answer to that

Well if this individual was brought up on Kilkenny hurling as you suggest he would know that Kilkenny averaged less than 2.5 All Irelands a decade before Brian Cody took over, he then preceded to win 11 All Irelands in his first 17 years in charge. He goes two years without winning one and he should be sacked.... and that's your idea of "showing respect"!

Topcat32

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Well if this individual was brought up on Kilkenny hurling as you suggest he would know that Kilkenny averaged less than 2.5 All Irelands a decade before Brian Cody took over, he then preceded to win 11 All Irelands in his first 17 years in charge. He goes two years without winning one and he should be sacked.... and that's your idea of "showing respect"!

Well his father is from Kilkenny and he has written some excellent pieces describing how much joy his father who was very sick at the time took from seeing Kilkenny finally beat Tipp in the championship, he has always written very favourably about Kilkenny, I dont agree with his article but that doesnt mean he has no respect for Brian Cody, far from it I think.

babyjesus14

Topcat32 wrote: »

Well his father is from Kilkenny and he has written some excellent pieces describing how much joy his father who was very sick at the time took from seeing Kilkenny finally beat Tipp in the championship, he has always written very favourably about Kilkenny, I dont agree with his article but that doesnt mean he has no respect for Brian Cody, far from it I think.

Do you not think that suggesting that someone who has been so successful should be sacked because he hasn't won the All Ireland for two years is not being disrespectful? If he had a coherent argument as to why he doesn't think Cody is the best man for the job and suggesting an alternative i might give the article some credence( of what relevance is Mick O'Dwyer) but it just reeks of ill thought out nonsensical attention seeking.

Powerhouse

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Well if this individual was brought up on Kilkenny hurling as you suggest he would know that Kilkenny averaged less than 2.5 All Irelands a decade before Brian Cody took over, he then preceded to win 11 All Irelands in his first 17 years in charge. He goes two years without winning one and he should be sacked.... and that's your idea of "showing respect"!

How many years do you think would be acceptable for Cody to go without winning an All-Ireland before his position came under question? Say another six years passed and Cody was 70 years old and Kilkenny eight years without an All-Ireland? That's not impossible. Time goes quickly. I'm not for a moment implying that he should go just interested in how you mention a timeframe at all.

I think the fact that Cody in in the job nearly 20 years and there are signs that it might end badly for him in the context of the incredible success he had influences Sweeney's thinking. Taking the example of O'Dwyer in Kerry, he was manager for just 15 years and got the road within three years of his last All Ireland. Now unlike O'Dwyer Cody has a different championship system which could well see Kilkenny back in the last four if things fall right for them without necessarily winning anything. In O'Dwyer's time they were gone by July of they lost to Cork and it didn't matter than Cork were the all-Ireland champions in his last year so performance looked worse than it might with Kilkenny.

But the question of Cody's future will arise and all the more so if people think a major rebuilding job is to be done over several years on limited resources. At what stage will it be "respectful" to raise the matter?

Powerhouse

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Do you not think that suggesting that someone who has been so successful should be sacked because he hasn't won the All Ireland for two years is not being disrespectful? If he had a coherent argument as to why he doesn't think Cody is the best man for the job and suggesting an alternative i might give the article some credence( of what relevance is Mick O'Dwyer) but it just reeks of ill thought out nonsensical attention seeking.

Seriously.............can you not see any comparison?

Topcat32

Powerhouse wrote: »

Seriously.............can you not see any comparison?

And can you not in turn see that Cody is not continuing to pick the bulk of the team that brought him success, by choice and otherwise so there is also quite significant differences.

Powerhouse

Topcat32 wrote: »

And can you not in turn see that Cody is not continuing to pick the bulk of the team that brought him success, by choice and otherwise so there is also quite significant differences.

I do see that. I just don't see the relevance of the point as Sweeney did not reference this. It's a difference between them but in the context of the possibility of a manager staying too long to the point where an obvious successor is not identified and a generation of possibilities passed over I don't think it is a 'significant' difference as you put it. A difference, just not significant in the debate about Cody's future. You are arguing about the nature of the decline not that the decline is not happening.

greenspurs

Maybe we need a new thread for bitching and moaning and winding people up !! Fcuk sake give it a rest ! It's annoying to have to scroll down past all the self righteous fans that don't like to be contradicted !!

Realt Dearg Sec

Powerhouse wrote: »

a generation of possibilities passed over .

But the article claims that there is no generation of possibilities. He says, in fact, that the quality of player is simply not there anymore. It's not clear how this would be solved by Cody stepping down: there doesn't seem, in fact, to be any concrete criticism of anything Cody is actually doing as manager now that may be contributing to the decline of the team, which he identifies squarely with the lack of underage production.

Yet he suggests Cody step down. Not clear what that would solve (OK he suggests that Cody should be made the director of hurling for the county, but I'm not exactly sure why he would be the best man for that job, it is an entirely different role than managing a senior team). The logic of the article is, honestly, completely lost on me.

Powerhouse

greenspurs wrote: »

Maybe we need a new thread for bitching and moaning and winding people up !! Fcuk sake give it a rest ! It's annoying to have to scroll down past all the self righteous fans that don't like to be contradicted !!

To be honest I think the discussion has been more interesting here this evening than for a long time. There are some who want as Joe Brolly calls it 'Rose of Tralee' discussion and others who have background agendas and are far more interested in finding out who is who and firing PMs to each other in the undergrowth than any informed discussion.

But I think it's a shame that when discussion threatens to be some way adversarial (and I mean on-point and interesting adversarial rather than "last month you said this, today you said that" row for the sake of it adversarial) instead of "how good are Kieran's this year?" that the objectors wade in to try to quench it. I suppose it is a weakness of a single thread operation which caters for everyone that lurkers who come on just for info get irked by genuine argument.

Then again, I know far more people would favour what your view than mine. The Rose of Tralee is very popular!