Irish Rail 2016 timetable consultation: A DART every 10 minute and more

Infini

Captain Chaos wrote: »

At peak times yes there is, and make them all 8 car sets while they are at it. At 5pm at Connolly there is a 20min DART gap going northbound becuase of Maynooth and Drogheda and Enterprise trains all need a path out of Connolly. The next DART along does tend to be a 4 or 6 car sets and it's just crazy with people fainting on them all the time.

I believe theyre gonna use as many sets as possible as 6 or 8 carrige sets from the 10th now instead so its at least SOME good news in regards to the rush hour.

Peppa Pig

So the press release in 2015 talks about unworkable rosters and productivity pay and the letter from yesterday talks about the need for discussions on pay progression, no mention of unworkable rosters.

What the hell is the reference to Oliver Twist all about, bizarre.

Hollister11

Will this affect trains gong from malahide/howth towards connolly are just from connolly to these stations..

Infini

Peppa Pig wrote: »

What the hell is the reference to Oliver Twist all about, bizarre.

I believe the reference is to the fact that the subvention that went into the rail was cut by nearly 40% in the space of 5 years and a now the companys going around saying its broke when the reality is its grossly underfunded and underinvested in by the government.

Infini

Hollister11 wrote: »

Will this affect trains gong from malahide/howth towards connolly are just from connolly to these stations..

Hopefully itll mean no more short trains in rush hour times.

Peppa Pig

Infini2 wrote: »

I believe the reference is to the fact that the subvention that went into the rail was cut by nearly 40% in the space of 5 years and a now the companys going around saying its broke when the reality is its grossly underfunded and underinvested in by the government.

Yeah, I get that, although I think it refers to the drivers pay. I just find it strange and childish that a large union would refer to a fictional character in a orphanage in the 1830s and expect to be taken seriously.

dublinman1990

If the plan of new rolling stock came up in IE & the NTA. How much capital funding & also how many new carriages would be required if the NTA were to make an order of new trains to keep the 10 minute frequency realistic for it's passengers?

It's probably not to going be a big issue for now if a new order for them came up right away as the number of trains needed could be very small to begin with. The 10 minute is going between Howth Junction & Bray. The current DART service is already able to cope with it's current fleet & timetable fairly well. Although the two carriage DART service in cases of some train departures really is a joke and the idea of it should be stopped immediately. It is pathetic in this day and age in 2016 that a uncertain amount of passengers living along a major rail line in Dublin expect to be crammed onto a already packed train on their commute between home & work.

I would be glad if this new frequency had stopped the two carriage trains when the plans are implemented later on in the year. It could bring a healthy number of passengers back to the service if they are fed up using other transport options available to them.

Infini

dublinman1990 wrote: »

If the plan of new rolling stock came up in IE & the NTA. How much capital funding & also how many new carriages would be required if the NTA were to make an order of new trains to keep the 10 minute frequency realistic for it's passengers?

It's probably not to going be a big issue for now if a new order for them came up right away as the number of trains needed could be very small to begin with. The 10 minute is going between Howth Junction & Bray. The current DART service is already able to cope with it's current fleet & timetable fairly well. Although the two carriage DART service in cases of some train departures really is a joke and the idea of it should be stopped immediately. It is pathetic in this day and age in 2016 that a uncertain amount of passengers living along a major rail line in Dublin expect to be crammed onto a already packed train on their commute between home & work.

I would be glad if this new frequency had stopped the two carriage trains when the plans are implemented later on in the year. It could bring a healthy number of passengers back to the service if they are fed up using other transport options available to them.

To be honest 2 carriage darts have dissapeared more or less because of the increase in passengers. As for the rolling stock the NTA simply making money availaible to refurbish out of service darts after 5 years of savage cutbacks is a drop in the ocean. My own opinion is to restore the bloody subvention back to the peak levels that were going into the place during the boom as its clear trying to penny pinch like this isnt gonna work. Its not just the workers looking for more money or for actual proper staff levels its for investing in the infrastructure as well. The connolly-howth jct section and the level crossings from lansdowne to merrion would be key pinch points in the whole plan IMO. Theres also NO turnback or crossovers between Lansdowne and Dun'Laiore either if a train fails in that section the whole thing is cockblocked because some genious though it was a good idea to take out the booterstown crossover a few years back to make the trains "go faster". To be honest if ONE train breaking down at dun'laiore can basically FUBAR the entire system during rush hour you really think the system is gonna be able to handle a constant 10min service from start to finish? The harder you push anything the greater the chance for failure its univeral to all equipment.

Heisenberg1

Infini2 wrote: »

To be honest 2 carriage darts have dissapeared more or less because of the increase in passengers. As for the rolling stock the NTA simply making money availaible to refurbish out of service darts after 5 years of savage cutbacks is a drop in the ocean. My own opinion is to restore the bloody subvention back to the peak levels that were going into the place during the boom as its clear trying to penny pinch like this isnt gonna work. Its not just the workers looking for more money or for actual proper staff levels its for investing in the infrastructure as well. The connolly-howth jct section and the level crossings from lansdowne to merrion would be key pinch points in the whole plan IMO. Theres also NO turnback or crossovers between Lansdowne and Dun'Laiore either if a train fails in that section the whole thing is cockblocked because some genious though it was a good idea to take out the booterstown crossover a few years back to make the trains "go faster". To be honest if ONE train breaking down at dun'laiore can basically FUBAR the entire system during rush hour you really think the system is gonna be able to handle a constant 10min service from start to finish? The harder you push anything the greater the chance for failure its univeral to all equipment.

Was the merrion crossover not taken out due to rationalisation of the network.? One train failure on either line would not block the network. There is reversible working between LR and DL trains would move but slower.

Infini

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

Was the merrion crossover not taken out due to rationalisation of the network.? One train failure on either line would not block the network. There is reversible working between LR and DL trains would move but slower.

That section takes nearly 15minutes to traverse. If you got darts running in both directions you can only really have darts going one way at a time it doesnt work in practice. Ive seen it before it causes major delays as well.

A train failed at dunlaiore there a month or 2 ago during the rush hour. And what happens? Trains were ONLY going south not north. Got to the point that what few trains were running were 4 carriage trains which were crushed full of unhappy travellers. Something like that isnt a service but an accident waiting to happen at that point. Not only that but it went on for so long (2hrs) that it eventually affected trains going south AS WELL as the trains that were meant to be coming from the north...... never got there cos they were all stuck behind the broken down train! Not fun for everyone involved.

There needs to be crossovers just south of sydney parade, maybe one at blackrock as well and maybe before salthill to boot. Running 10min Darts aint gonna work with such a long section being like that. In addition heres the irony: They took out those points because of "rationalisation"? (to make the trains "go faster") In a network thats underfunded and underinvested and yet more people are using it because they NEED it.

Fine Gael are the ones behind the worst of it tho they want to cut as much as possible and think they can have the railway run like a private buisness (when in actual fact its far more closer to an INFRASTRUCTURE like roads) but its ridiculous that we arent putting the money into the services and infrastructure that we NEED more and more these days. Dont even get me started on how braindead and stupid they are for deferring DU.

Heisenberg1

Infini2 wrote: »

That section takes nearly 15minutes to traverse. If you got darts running in both directions you can only really have darts going one way at a time it doesnt work in practice. Ive seen it before it causes major delays as well.

A train failed at dunlaiore there a month or 2 ago during the rush hour. And what happens? Trains were ONLY going south not north. Got to the point that what few trains were running were 4 carriage trains which were crushed full of unhappy travellers. Something like that isnt a service but an accident waiting to happen at that point. Not only that but it went on for so long (2hrs) that it eventually affected trains going south AS WELL as the trains that were meant to be coming from the north...... never got there cos they were all stuck behind the broken down train! Not fun for everyone involved.

There needs to be crossovers just south of sydney parade, maybe one at blackrock as well and maybe before salthill to boot. Running 10min Darts aint gonna work with such a long section being like that. In addition heres the irony: They took out those points because of "rationalisation"? (to make the trains "go faster") In a network thats underfunded and underinvested and yet more people are using it because they NEED it.

Fine Gael are the ones behind the worst of it tho they want to cut as much as possible and think they can have the railway run like a private buisness (when in actual fact its far more closer to an INFRASTRUCTURE like roads) but its ridiculous that we arent putting the money into the services and infrastructure that we NEED more and more these days. Dont even get me started on how braindead and stupid they are for deferring DU.

That failure you are talking about was on the UP platform in DL. There was never a crossover between DL and Dalkey so how would trains get around that failure? SLW ? Not with Darts im afraid.There are always points around the network when a failure happens they can do nothing until it's moved.

When was the last failure on that section that would justify putting in crossovers and maintaining them. I would imagine that they cost a lot of money to maintain.

trellheim

I doubt there is any chance of any funding improvement in the current climate and zero government.

But what infrastructure bars are there to starting this service - none . Yes there will be poo if it breaks. Understood. Everyone is well aware the subvention is cut to shreds; that will not change. So can we move on and discuss what the best way to run the service is within what we have, rather than banging on the last 7 pages in my browser about "woe, subvention cuts" Can we consider that bit done ? People's points made in excruciating detail and repeated ad-nauseam .

For example : Are there sufficient sets available to work the schedule - in what formation 2/4/8 ?

what is the proposed schedule 10mins for the full WTT ?

Infini

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

When was the last failure on that section that would justify putting in crossovers and maintaining them. I would imagine that they cost a lot of money to maintain.

If your gonna have a 10min service like that you NEED redundancy and backup systems and hardware. Something that has been forgotten on something like this. Its all well and good talking about costs and such but its all about maintaining the quality of the service and having something to fall back on if something happens. As I said pushing the existing hardware harder will only increase the likelihood of failures and the last thing you need is a train blocking up that section and causing havoc during the rush hour.

trellheim wrote: »

I doubt there is any chance of any funding improvement in the current climate and zero government.

But what infrastructure bars are there to starting this service - none . Yes there will be poo if it breaks. Understood. Everyone is well aware the subvention is cut to shreds; that will not change. So can we move on and discuss what the best way to run the service is within what we have, rather than banging on the last 7 pages in my browser about "woe, subvention cuts" Can we consider that bit done ? People's points made in excruciating detail and repeated ad-nauseam .

For example : Are there sufficient sets available to work the schedule - in what formation 2/4/8 ?

what is the proposed schedule 10mins for the full WTT ?

If the subvention isnt changed then neither will the service. You get what you pay for. Until that changes you cant expect more.

As for the WTT there's no copies available of it I havent seen one either. We only have the proposed timetable to work with. As for the sets while others say there's money made available to bring sets back into service I seriously doubt theres enough for a 10min service. The 15min service back in the older days used to be nothing but 6 and 8 piece trains but the 10min service is not only nearly a 50% increase in trains being run its gonna be constant all day.

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

But the failure your talking about the hardware never existed in the first place. As I said there are points on the network you can do nothing about in some failure situations.

Failures have happened before. The amount of train failures became more frequent as well in the last few years because of the cutbacks I've seen it happen. As for certain points on the network while there might be spots you can do nothing about theres certainly a few they CAN do something about.

Heisenberg1

Infini2 wrote: »

If your gonna have a 10min service like that you NEED redundancy and backup systems and hardware. Something that has been forgotten on something like this. Its all well and good talking about costs and such but its all about maintaining the quality of the service and having something to fall back on if something happens. As I said pushing the existing hardware harder will only increase the likelihood of failures and the last thing you need is a train blocking up that section and causing havoc during the rush hour.

But the failure your talking about the hardware never existed in the first place. As I said there are points on the network you can do nothing about in some failure situations.

trellheim

But the subvention did increase - NBRU even acknowledged this yesterday ( letter apparently written by a small child who has been bullied in the playground ) http://nbru.ie/union/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Response-to-Irish-Rail-on-Cnacellelation-of-10-Minute-Dart-Service-30th-March-2016.pdf

Worth reading to see exactly what the word "drivel" means.

devnull

The subvention was increased in the last budget.

Half of the cuts were reversed and they exected to reverse the other half in the next budget but now who knows what will happen after the elction result

GM228

trellheim wrote: »

But the subvention did increase - NBRU even acknowledged this yesterday ( letter apparently written by a small child who has been bullied in the playground ) http://nbru.ie/union/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Response-to-Irish-Rail-on-Cnacellelation-of-10-Minute-Dart-Service-30th-March-2016.pdf

Worth reading to see exactly what the word "drivel" means.

It says the subvention fell from €189m in 2007 to €118 in 2014, and i know it was €117 in 2015, equating to an approximate 38% fall, where does the NBRU acknowledge it increased?

What subvention has been allocated to IE for 2016?

There was a 14% increase in subventionl for the entire public transport sector, and most of it went to the Rural Transport Programme AFAIK.

Infini

trellheim wrote: »

But the subvention did increase - NBRU even acknowledged this yesterday ( letter apparently written by a small child who has been bullied in the playground ) http://nbru.ie/union/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Response-to-Irish-Rail-on-Cnacellelation-of-10-Minute-Dart-Service-30th-March-2016.pdf

Worth reading to see exactly what the word "drivel" means.

You might wanna check into the arguments been made first before considering it "drivel" theres plenty of points made that are in fact true. Fine Gael always were the ones to ruin the rail and public services in general. If we spent more time putting money back into them instead of tax cuts we might have better services.

trellheim

here does the NBRU acknowledge it increased?

Quote from the letter "Much Trumpeted Supplementary Funding received"

In answer to the points above, any response that aims to be taken seriously that contains phrases like

'used(abused)', "sated". "game is up", "riddle me this", "Please Sir I Want More" is the type of letter that gets filed in the 'useless invective/drivel' folder

This is evident in the response from IE HR which just reeks of frustration at this type of carryon. Real serious negotiation doesn't look like that FFS.

Go ahead. NBRU members reading this - Are you proud of the style - what do you think it will achieve to forward your cause ? Thats the writer letting off personal steam and he shouldn't be let out in public.

Heisenberg1

GM228 wrote: »

It says the subvention fell from €189m in 2007 to €118 in 2014, and i know it was €117 in 2015, equating to an approximate 38% fall, where does the NBRU acknowledge it increased?

What subvention has been allocated to IE for 2016?

There was a 14% increase in subventionl for the entire public transport sector, and most of it went to the Rural Transport Programme AFAIK.

Does the €117 million include the €38 million supplementary funds for the heavy maintenence programe?

Infini

trellheim wrote: »

Quote from the letter "Much Trumpeted Supplementary Funding received"

In answer to the points above, any response that aims to be taken seriously that contains phrases like

'used(abused)', "sated". "game is up", "riddle me this", "Please Sir I Want More" is the type of letter that gets filed in the 'useless invective/drivel' folder

This is evident in the response from IE HR which just reeks of frustration at this type of carryon. Real serious negotiation doesn't look like that FFS.

Go ahead. NBRU members reading this - Are you proud of the style - what do you think it will achieve to forward your cause ? Thats the writer letting off personal steam and he shouldn't be let out in public.

Considering some of the headbangers running the place and the carryon of the last few years wouldnt YOU be frusatrated as well? You can argue about the style but lets focus on the facts here.

GM228

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

Does the €117 million include the €38 million supplementary funds for the heavy maintenence programe?

Good point, I'm not sure if it is before or after the supplementary funding, but IE never actually got €38m, that's a myth, only €9m funding was received, the €39m was a figure for the CIE group overall possibly meaning DB and BE may have got €30m. Either that or all the €39m was earmarked for IE, either way they only got €9m!

trellheim

Considering some of the headbangers running the place and the carryon of the last few years wouldnt YOU be frusatrated as well? You can argue about the style but lets focus on the facts here.

Grievances and frustrations there may well be. Any letter in that style doesn't air them in a manner fit for adult discussion, and is just a tantrum. How is that letter professional and not make the writer look like a child ?

Here's the version that doesn't look stupid

Sir
Thank you for your letter. We are referring this to the WRC for an early conciliation.
Yours, etc.

devnull

I know that doesn't suit some posters agenda but it is true

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2015/budget-2016-sees-8-increase-dept-transport-tourism-sport-which-will-support

Over €26m was restored in the last budget to CIE.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

I know that doesn't suit some posters agenda but it is true

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2015/budget-2016-sees-8-increase-dept-transport-tourism-sport-which-will-support

Over €26m was restored in the last budget to CIE.

€26m extra for transport, how much of that actually went to CIE/M&A etc or each company?

Majority of that for the Phoenix Park tunnel service, the 10 minute DART service, and the DB/BE service improvements and the rural service improvement program.

devnull

Go read the link the €28m was in PSO.

Purchases of new vehicles were via capital grants.

The 10 minute DART service has not happened as of yet but they still got th emoney.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

Go read the link the €28m was in PSO.

Purchases of new vehicles were via capital grants.

The 10 minute DART service has not happened as of yet but they still got th emoney.

Sorry I took it up wrong, still though how much actually goes to each company? Did M&A renew their PSO contract for 2016?

It seems that rather than simply been an increase it's extra money to run extra services, no?

Bear in mind when this was announced the 10 minute DART service was supposed to start in January, If the 10 minute DART service dosn't run then IE won't fulfill the terms of the PSO and won't receive part of the extra PSO payments allocated as part of the contract.

Bar the tunnel services and DART services the extra PSO is for BE and DB and the Rural Transport Programme by my understanding of it.

devnull

I tend to stick to the facts that can be proven to make my own points, rather than making idle speculation when I don't like the facts.

I can say I understand many things and pluck them out of thin air to try and help me win a debate on here, I don't though, although I know that is established tradition on C&T.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

I tend to stick to the facts that can be proven to make my own points, rather than making idle speculation when I don't like the facts.

I can say I understand many things and pluck them out of thin air to try and help me win a debate on here, I don't though, although I know that is established tradition on C&T.

What speculation are you referring to? The fact that the money is for increased services or the fact that money is withdrawn for not complying with the PSO targets? I.e no extra DART service = less subvention.

trellheim

Sorry I took it up wrong, still though how much actually goes to each company? Did M&A renew their PSO contract for 2016?

It seems that rather than simply been an increase it's extra money to run extra services, no?

If the 10 minute DART service dosn't run then IE won't fulfill the terms of the PSO and won't receive the extra PSO payments.

Bar the tunnel services and DART services the extra PSO is for BE and DB and the Rural Transport Programme by my understanding of it.

Extra money for extra services was what I saw it as, for sure - agreed. But that sounded reasonable to me given the funding envelope available.