MATCH THREAD: Leinster vs Wasps, Sun 15th Nov 2015 13:00, RDS, BTEUR

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

DK was at fault for their first try and dropped the ball that Conan picked up. I think "good game" is pushing it a bit, he was very average if not poor along with the rest of the back three.

That's just not true awec. He made 2 mistakes but made a number of line breaks as well as a try saving tackle. He was very good in contact and was looking to get involved a lot, which was a huge positive. He had a good game overall, but I'm afraid you (like a good few others) have your mind made up on him.

Noopti

While I don't think dropping Heaslip is an option or justified right now, I do have very strong doubts about him as captain when Nacewa isn't fit.

Personally I would give Ruddock a shot.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

That's just not true awec. He made 2 mistakes but made a number of line breaks as well as a try saving tackle. He was very good in contact and was looking to get involved a lot, which was a huge positive. He had a good game overall, but I'm afraid you (like a good few others) have your mind made up on him.

Two mistakes that led directly to 10 points for Wasps.

Ok, he cannot account for Conan being dumb enough to pick that ball up, but he still dropped the ball.

I think he's getting an easy ride here because so many (basically all) of the team was rubbish.

CMOTDibbler

Deleted User wrote: »

Small part of me starting to wonder about Heaslip as captain. Can't all be on him, but that's two big capitulations in two big games in a row.

I've never really felt that the captain is that much of an important role other than the media stuff etc. Putting blame on the captain always seems to be a tacit cop out for the rest of the team.

These guys are professionals. They've been trained for the opposition and coached on their roles. If they're not playing well, they should know it themselves, they shouldn't need to be told.

I didn't see much of the match; I haven't got BT Sport, but I saw about thirty minutes of the second half on a stream. What struck me was the errors. So many times, we dropped the ball in the tackle. There were times where we were making great progress up the pitch only for a knock on or a bad pass to send us back to our own half to start all over again. Demoralising to watch and probably worse to be involved in. Wasps were also vey good at the breakdown and many times I thought they were going to turn it over, the rest of the time they did and oftentimes through our own mistakes.

awec

Heaslip was completely dominated by his opposite number.

Though it would be unfair to pin this on his leadership. Leinster didn't lose because of a lack of leadership or poor decision making. It was poor execution and a lack of ideas that cost them the game and Heaslip isn't accountable for either of those. Yes, the captain should lead by example but there is a limit to his influence. He might be able to talk to one or two guys who are having an off day but he isn't a miracle worker, he can't get the other 14 guys playing with him to suddenly find form when everything is going so bad.

It's not his fault, I don't even think that it played a part.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Two mistakes that led directly to 10 points for Wasps.

Ok, he cannot account for Conan being dumb enough to pick that ball up, but he still dropped the ball.

In fairness that kick from Simpson (?) was outstanding and the chase from Wade was excellent. You've got to factor that in. He positioned himself well for that but the kick was so good he had to retreat back. The bounce then was truly wicked. It reminded me of the Toulouse game in 2011. There wasn't a huge amount he could have done there really.

It was Conans mistake that led directly to the 3 points then too, not Daves.

Honestly, why would anyone want to become a rugby player if this is the sort of nonsense that gets trotted out. People waiting to pounce on any and every mistake they make as though somehow they should be more than human.

Even after that first try Leinster had the majority of possession and territory. They had more than enough opportunity to turn the scoreboard around. And it was not Daves fault we didn't do that. In fact the guy got us on the front foot on a number of occasions and the others were the ones who failed to capitalise on that. And like I said he also put in a massive try saving tackle covering across from the opposite side of the pitch. His contributions were more positive than negative. Which is more than can be said for others on the pitch yesterday.

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

Two mistakes that led directly to 10 points for Wasps.

Ok, he cannot account for Conan being dumb enough to pick that ball up, but he still dropped the ball.

I think he's getting an easy ride here because so many (basically all) of the team was rubbish.

I thought it was a head bandaged player who knocked it on, i.e. McFadden.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

In fairness that kick from Simpson (?) was outstanding and the chase from Wade was excellent. You've got to factor that in. He positioned himself well for that but the kick was so good he had to retreat back. The bounce then was truly wicked. It reminded me of the Toulouse game in 2011. There wasn't a huge amount he could have done there really.

It was Conans mistake that led directly to the 3 points then too, not Daves.

Honestly, why would anyone want to become a rugby player if this is the sort of nonsense that gets trotted out. People waiting to pounce on any and every mistake they make as though somehow they should be more than human.

Even after that first try Leinster had the majority of possession and territory. They had more than enough opportunity to turn the scoreboard around. And it was not Daves fault we didn't do that. In fact the guy got us on the front foot on a number of occasions and the others were the ones who failed to capitalise on that. And like I said he also put in a massive try saving tackle covering across from the opposite side of the pitch. His contributions were more positive than negative. Which is more than can be said for others on the pitch yesterday.

You cannot ignore the fact that DK dropped the ball. Even if Conan hadn't picked it up Leinster were going to be in big trouble, the scrum was not going well.

awec

CatFromHue wrote: »

I thought it was a head bandaged player who knocked it on, i.e. McFadden.

I stand to be corrected, I thought it was DK. If it was McFadden I'll take it back.

Larbre34

I said it yesterday, I was watching the body language in the time off periods and there was little sense of seeking to organise or discuss, Fogarty and McQuilkin were ferrying messages but Heaslip was doing as much standing around looking nonplussed as the rest. Sexton is a club vice-captain too and he was no better. First time in a long time you'd have to question fundamental effort.

I'm not sure why the decision on the back 3 was made how it was, but for me it should have been Kirchner at 15 first and foremost, then build from there, Madigan hasnt played enough there recently and it showed.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

You cannot ignore the fact that DK dropped the ball. Even if Conan hadn't picked it up Leinster were going to be in big trouble, the scrum was not going well.

I'm not ignoring the fact that Dave dropped the ball (and if it was Ferg then this is all academic, I thought it was Dave as well). His dropping of the ball led directly to a Wasps advantage. Conans picking it up led directly to the penalty. Now maybe Wasps might have scored off the back of the scrum, but there's simply no way to know that. So Daves mistakes did not lead directly to 3 points.

Even still, they were 2 mistakes. Players are allowed to make mistakes. You rate their performance based on the full 80, not on 2 individual moments in the game. Over the course of the full 80 he was good.

molloyjh

Larbre34 wrote: »

I said it yesterday, I was watching the body language in the time off periods and there was little sense of seeking to organise or discuss, Fogarty and McQuilkin were ferrying messages but Heaslip was doing as much standing around looking nonplussed as the rest. Sexton is a club vice-captain too and he was no better. First time in a long time you'd have to question fundamental effort.

I'm not sure why the decision on the back 3 was made how it was, but for me it should have been Kirchner at 15 first and foremost, then build from there, Madigan hasnt played enough there recently and it showed.

I thought Mads was better at FB yesterday than Zane was the previous week tbh.

former total

I thought Madigan had a good game too, he looked to have ideas in attack that went beyond shovelling it out the backline. He even managed to take on a defender and beat him once or twice, showed good pace to cover that kick and chase, he was far from the worst performer out there.

The worst performer was, beyond any question, Sexton.

errlloyd

I actually agree, I didn't think Madigan was bad. He even did some distribution.

Him and Zane combined well to butcher that overlap BOD highlighted.

CMOTDibbler

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the fact that Dave dropped the ball (and if it was Ferg then this is all academic, I thought it was Dave as well). His dropping of the ball led directly to a Wasps advantage. Conans picking it up led directly to the penalty. Now maybe Wasps might have scored off the back of the scrum, but there's simply no way to know that. So Daves mistakes did not lead directly to 3 points.

Even still, they were 2 mistakes. Players are allowed to make mistakes. You rate their performance based on the full 80, not on 2 individual moments in the game. Over the course of the full 80 he was good.

I think if there was a mistake made, it was attempting to catch the ball at all. It seemed to me that the wind caught it and it fell shorter than anticipated (DK kind of dived forward to catch it afair). Had it gone out of play, it would have been a 22 drop out rather than a run from the try line.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

I thought Madigan had a good game too, he looked to have ideas in attack that went beyond shovelling it out the backline. He even managed to take on a defender and beat him once or twice, showed good pace to cover that kick and chase, he was far from the worst performer out there.

The worst performer was, beyond any question, Sexton.

He definitely wasn't fit though. Off the ball he was walking funny at times and just didn't look comfortable out there. We noticed it first after the Wade try when he went to take the restart and almost waddled up to half way on his heels.

Eponymous

molloyjh wrote: »

He definitely wasn't fit though. Off the ball he was walking funny at times and just didn't look comfortable out there. We noticed it first after the Wade try when he went to take the restart and almost waddled up to half way on his heels.

Which begs the question, should he be playing? He wasn't right last week either and looking at him during warm ups, I'd said to some of my companions that I'd be surprised if he took the place kicks given Madigan and McFadden were both on the pitch.

Surely you need players to be fully fit starting the game, never mind shipping knocks during it?

molloyjh

Eponymous wrote: »

Which begs the question, should he be playing? He wasn't right last week either and looking at him during warm ups, I'd said to some of my companions that I'd be surprised if he took the place kicks given Madigan and McFadden were both on the pitch.

Surely you need players to be fully fit starting the game, never mind shipping knocks during it?

Given how poor Mads was at 10 a couple of weeks ago (and he was truly awful) I reckon they assumed that Sexton, at whatever % he was at, was better than Mads. I certainly wouldn't have argued before the game and despite Mads performance at 15 I'm still not sure I'd argue now.

vienne86

molloyjh wrote: »

He definitely wasn't fit though. Off the ball he was walking funny at times and just didn't look comfortable out there. We noticed it first after the Wade try when he went to take the restart and almost waddled up to half way on his heels.

'Walking funny.....' I don't like the sound of that AT ALL. When he made mistakes, his head dropped - normally he gets mad with himself. It sounds like he really shouldn't have been on the pitch.

former total

Before the game, grand, generally if Sexton is vertical he plays.

But during the game, if he wasn't able for it or was just playing badly, then there's nothing wrong with getting the old shepherd's crook out.

If he was genuinely injured, then leaving him on for 80 minutes probably wasn't the best idea.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

Given how poor Mads was at 10 a couple of weeks ago (and he was truly awful) I reckon they assumed that Sexton, at whatever % he was at, was better than Mads. I certainly wouldn't have argued before the game and despite Mads performance at 15 I'm still not sure I'd argue now.

i would be worried about a a 10-13 of mads, reid, FMF going away to an italian team in the pro12... nevermind against an english side in the ERC.

its a bit ridiculous that the first week we're supposed to have everyone back... we are hit with a disasterous injury crisis in narrow focused positions.

CatFromHue

Can Marsh play 15?

I'd have thought not and that Madigan would have stayed there with Marsh at 10.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

i would be worried about a a 10-13 of mads, reid, FMF going away to an italian team in the pro12... nevermind against an english side in the ERC.

its a bit ridiculous that the first week we're supposed to have everyone back... we are hit with a disasterous injury crisis in narrow focused positions.

It may not be so narrow this week. Strauss will not be available. He was all over the place going off. Maccer (arguably our best forward yesterday) and Seanie both are reported to have suffered knocks to the head too so they might be out. Healy is still struggling to get back to form (although he made a difference to the scrum I thought yesterday). Moore and Ruddock are both a little bit off full fitness too AFAIK. Sexton isn't fully fit. Fitz, Te'o and Isa could possibly still be out. We don't know what the story is with Rob Kearney either.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

Can Marsh play 15?

I'd have thought not and that Madigan would have stayed there with Marsh at 10.

Unless we brought in Ringrose earlier for Sexton and moved Mads to 10 and Zane to FB that would have been the only option.

Sangre

errlloyd wrote: »

I actually agree, I didn't think Madigan was bad. He even did some distribution.

Him and Zane combined well to butcher that overlap BOD highlighted.

I thought Mads played relatively well as a player but not as a fullback. I thought he caught out positionally once or twice, which we will expected given past experience tehre.

Eponymous

molloyjh wrote: »

Given how poor Mads was at 10 a couple of weeks ago (and he was truly awful) I reckon they assumed that Sexton, at whatever % he was at, was better than Mads. I certainly wouldn't have argued before the game and despite Mads performance at 15 I'm still not sure I'd argue now.

Not saying not to have played Sexton, just to let either Madigan or McFadden take the place kicks.

No doubting Sexton at 75% is still a better option in the 10 shirt, just not necessary to have him take all the penalties.

whatawaster

Marsh was actually a waste of a sub yesterday. He was never going to come on for a fit Sexton for any meaningful period of time.

Should have put someone like Kelleher on the bench instead. If Sexton was injured Madigan could have moved to 10. In the event, we played with 22 players yesterday.

molloyjh

Eponymous wrote: »

Not saying not to have played Sexton, just to let either Madigan or McFadden take the place kicks.

No doubting Sexton at 75% is still a better option in the 10 shirt, just not necessary to have him take all the penalties.

In fairness we didn't have that many of them for Johnny to take.

errlloyd

molloyjh wrote: »

In fairness we didn't have that many of them for Johnny to take.

You know, among the many shocking statistics we have to deal with from yesterday.

(Along with dominant territory AND possession)

We actually gave away fewer penalties than Wasps.

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

You know, among the many shocking statistics we have to deal with from yesterday.

(Along with dominant territory AND possession)

We actually gave away fewer penalties than Wasps.

It just goes to prove that stats are bloody useless without a bit of context really. But we only had 4 penalties that were in any way kickable IIRC. We scored 2, missed 1 and went to touch for another (which was a long way out).