Begrudgery

steddyeddy

"resentment of any person who has achieved success or wealth"- Irish

This was brought up a few times in my last thread. My mother always told me progress in Ireland and England and they'll resent it but rise up in America and they'll pat you on the back. I only experienced this once or twice so I think it's exaggerated. Is this something you've experienced?

Guy:Incognito

Think you're great do you? With your own thread. It was far from starting threads you were raised. Giving it the big one. State of you.

ancapailldorcha

Is there a specific reason that you've started so many threads about this?

To answer the question, yes. I had several of the local knuckle draggers in my hometown have a go at me for daring to pursue third level education. I'm talking about the sort of individuals whose literary palate begins and ends with the Racing Post.

Banjo String

steddyeddy wrote: »

"resentment of any person who has achieved success or wealth"- Irish

This was brought up a few times in my last thread. My mother always told me progress in Ireland and England and they'll resent it but rise up in America and they'll pat you on the back. I only experienced this once or twice so I think it's exaggerated. Is this something you've experienced?

To think this is unique to ireland is a bit of an exaggeration op, I can think of loads of successful business people that get constant ridicule in their own country also.

Simon Cowell.
Donald Trump.

Both successful in their own rights, and both constantly on the receiving end of criticism in their own respective homelands.

The fact that they both are a pair of bellends is purely coincidental, but you get my sentiments .

Seth Brundle

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

To answer the question, yes. I had several of the local knuckle draggers in my hometown have a go at me for daring to pursue third level education. I'm talking about the sort of individuals whose literary palate begins and ends with the Racing Post.

Think you're smart with your fancy words now? Eh?

Sheep Lover

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there a specific reason that you've started so many threads about this?

To answer the question, yes. I had several of the local knuckle draggers in my hometown have a go at me for daring to pursue third level education. I'm talking about the sort of individuals whose literary palate begins and ends with the Racing Post.

While you're off living the high life doing your ordinary arts degree in Tralee Institute of Technology (TIT)

kneemos

You can be as successful as you like,just be humble.
Show any signs of arrogance and you'll be ridiculed.

Ally Dick

Americans will pat you on the back for your success, but they're very vacuous cold artificial people in other ways. I would rather live in Ireland than the US every time, despite the begrudgery

sonny.knowles

Another class thread.

VinLieger

kneemos wrote: »

You can be as successful as you like,just be humble.
Show any signs of arrogance and you'll be ridiculed.

Pretty much this, rightly so imo, great your doing well for yourself but shoving it in other peoples faces wont win you any fans.

You want praise? Then don't go asking for it

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there a specific reason that you've started so many threads about this?

To answer the question, yes. I had several of the local knuckle draggers in my hometown have a go at me for daring to pursue third level education. I'm talking about the sort of individuals whose literary palate begins and ends with the Racing Post.

I didn't post about begrudgery before. It's not something that's as common as people think IMO.

diomed

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there a specific reason that you've started so many threads about this?

To answer the question, yes. I had several of the local knuckle draggers in my hometown have a go at me for daring to pursue third level education. I'm talking about the sort of individuals whose literary palate begins and ends with the Racing Post.

I read the Racing Sport, sport of kings and all that, you pleb.

MistyCheese

Kneemos bang on there. Although I don't think it's strictly confined to Ireland/England. It was an American lady who decided to respond to men's comments via dating site messages of 'you're beautiful' with a Han-Soloesque 'I know'.

Not even as arrogant as that, sometimes she simply responded with a 'thank you'. She got a fair bit of abuse from men calling her stuck up, asking who she thought she was and even rescinding their original comments with a 'you're not actually that hot.'

steddyeddy

sonny.knowles wrote: »

Another class thread.

It's not a class issue. Just a success one. Like the fact a lot of people hate Bono maybe.

PowerToWait

Let's be honest. This thread is a vehicle to highlight your 'success'.

We all know how you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps etc. Well done.

Is that begrudging enough?

Dirty Dingus McGee

I'm not sure that begrudgery is as big a thing in Ireland as people like to think.

I think arrogance and constantly clapping yourself on the back is what pisses people off.

sonny.knowles

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's not a class issue. Just a success one. Like the fact a lot of people hate Bono maybe.

I meant it was a great thread. You have class on the brain.

Sh1tbag OToole

steddyeddy wrote: »

but rise up in America and they'll pat you on the back

They'll do more than pat you on the back, they'll idolise the lad who came off the boat without two pennies to rub together and 'worked his god darn ass off' at some exploitative establishment for _ years and rose up through the ranks and is now a millionaire with a massive 'pad' and 10 cars and a helicopter.

Even the most poorest and most oppressed Americans cling to these types of stories for hope, while ignoring the fact that there's only room for a small number of such people in their society and that there is more to these stories than meets the eye (most of them got to where they are by pure fluke or had someone high up who took a liking to them)

KomradeBishop

Like you mentioned in the other thread, it's hard to distinguish how much of a thing this is offline, vs here online.

As I touched on in the other thread, you get a lot of people promoting the 'begrudgery' label/accusation, against people who are critical of how someone achieved their current status societally/monetarily/academically/etc. - so 'begrudgery' as an accusation, is often used in a wrong and smearing way, to dismiss legitimate criticism.

In Ireland, there's definitely an undertone of corruption/fraud/'old-boys-club' influence peddling within certain industries, and protection (even if by just 'turning a blind eye') of corruption - so I think that probably plays into affecting public perception of how merited someones success is, but in a kneejerk kind of way that can often hit the wrong targets.

Tarzana2

sonny.knowles wrote: »

Another class thread.

I know, what gives, Steddyeddy? You're preoccupied!

KomradeBishop

Tarzana2 wrote: »

I know, what gives, Steddyeddy? You're preoccupied!

There was a good quote I saw the other day, relating to societal issues that are 'acceptable' to talk about - not a strict rule, but a good guide on which things tend to get shut-down in discussion:
"It’s always OK to talk about race. It’s often OK to talk about gender. It’s never OK to talk about class."

We see plenty of topics on Boards about gender, often about race (while travellers wouldn't be a 'race' as such, it'd be a line of topics that fits there), but 'class' is a type of topic that tends to be shut-down more often (usually by people complaining about it being talked about, and trying to dissuade it).

ancapailldorcha

KomradeBishop wrote: »

There was a good quote I saw the other day, relating to societal issues that are 'acceptable' to talk about - not a strict rule, but a good guide on which things tend to get shut-down in discussion:
"It’s always OK to talk about race. It’s often OK to talk about gender. It’s never OK to talk about class."

We see plenty of topics on Boards about gender, often about race (while travellers wouldn't be a 'race' as such, it'd be a line of topics that fits there), but 'class' is a type of topic that tends to be shut-down more often (usually by people complaining about it being talked about, and trying to dissuade it).

Who exactly is shutting down these discussions?

BlibBlab

There's can be a bit of begrudgery but we're no worse than most other places. It tends to be thrown around be people who are disliked for their actions and attitudes, but rather reflect on themselves just assume everybody is jealous of them.

blinding

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there a specific reason that you've started so many threads about this?

To answer the question, yes. I had several of the local knuckle draggers in my hometown have a go at me for daring to pursue third level education. I'm talking about the sort of individuals whose literary palate begins and ends with the Racing Post.

And whats wrong with the Racing Post. If people want to squander their money Gambling then thats up to them you….snob….(actually I don't care);)

sonny.knowles

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who exactly is shutting down these discussions?

Race threads are regularly shut down. Literally. I don't see the same happening for the OPs threads.

Some posters take exception when you don't hold the same world view and would rather a love in where we all agree with them.

KomradeBishop

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who exactly is shutting down these discussions?

It's not literally stopping discussions dead, it's those who always drop into the threads to post boorish nonsense (or to backslap it), which amount to "oh not this bollocks again? would you ever shut up with it" - i.e. trying to dissuade discussion of this kind of topic - despite this kind of thread being relatively uncommon compared to a lot of other threads, on similar societal issues.

It doesn't really add to the discussion, so why bother posting it, if not to dissuade discussing certain topics?

I've met begrudgery in Ireland, never anywhere else. Mainly because the people I mix with in Ireland are more of a mixed bag than those I'm in contact with elsewhere rather than it being a national characteristic.

ancapailldorcha

blinding wrote: »

And whats wrong with the Racing Post. If people want to squander their money Gambling then thats up to them you….snob….(actually I don't care);)

Of course. But if you dare do be different, if you're idea of fun isn't getting hammered, watching football or doing up a Peugeot 106 to drive in circles around the town centre then you're in for a rough ride. I've no issue with gambling, quite the opposite as it goes given that it provided me with employment for a few years. I do take an issue with people having a go at others for being different. Hobbies are meant to be enjoyable and relaxing, not tools to beat other people over the head with.

Sam Kade

Banjo String wrote: »

To think this is unique to ireland is a bit of an exaggeration op, I can think of loads of successful business people that get constant ridicule in their own country also.

Simon Cowell.
Donald Trump.

Both successful in their own rights, and both constantly on the receiving end of criticism in their own respective homelands.

The fact that they both are a pair of bellends is purely coincidental, but you get my sentiments .

In fairness you couldn't pick two bigger gobsh1tes, which many people dislike them for and not their wealth.

ancapailldorcha

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's not literally stopping discussions dead, it's those who always drop into the threads to post boorish nonsense (or to backslap it), which amount to "oh not this bollocks again? would you ever shut up with it" - i.e. trying to dissuade discussion of this kind of topic - despite this kind of thread being relatively uncommon compared to a lot of other threads, on similar societal issues.

It doesn't really add to the discussion, so why bother posting it, if not to dissuade discussing certain topics?

You can apply this logic to a lot of what gets posted on the internet. Take the new James Bond film. It would surprise me if there were plenty of comments from people saying that it didn't interest them or Craig is terrible in the role, etc... Why post then?

seenitall

In Catholicism, humility is the uppermost virtue; and success, well, to put it mildly, nothing to write home about in and of itself...

Matthew 19:30 "Many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Matthew 19:30 "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

So, this is all stuff that is programmed into the Irish psyche since times immemorial. Success is wrong, and arrogance is practically a cardinal sin.

The other side of the same coin is that 'loser' is traditionally an unheard-of concept here (compared to many other places, mostly with Protestant-derived ethics). An alcoholic at the point of delirium tremens: "Ah sure, he likes his drink." An anti-social thug: "Rough childhood, poor soul." Lazy layabout: "No opportunities, god love him, gubberment something something" Etc etc.

blinding

blinding wrote: »

And whats wrong with the Racing Post. If people want to squander their money Gambling then thats up to them you….snob….(actually I don't care);)

It's not that there's anything wrong with reading the Racing Post, it's that there's something wrong with NOT reading the Racing Post when thats what everybody else does.

Peoples first thought is that you regard yourself as above it, not that you simply have no interest in it.

steddyeddy

PowerToWait wrote: »

Let's be honest. This thread is a vehicle to highlight your 'success'.

We all know how you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps etc. Well done.

Is that begrudging enough?

Yea that's typical alright

Mister Vain

PowerToWait wrote: »

We all know how you pulled yourself

:P

ancapailldorcha

Candie wrote: »

It's not that there's anything wrong with reading the Racing Post, it's that there's something wrong with NOT reading the Racing Post when thats what everybody else does.

Peoples first thought is that you regard yourself as above it, not that you simply have no interest in it.

Thank you for communicating my point in a much cleaner and more efficient manner than I did.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who exactly is shutting down these discussions?

The same idiots that make the same comment every thread. It's not shutting down the threads but it is indicative of an unwillingness to deal with the subject matter. Also class doesn't come into this thread unless you really want it to.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

The same idiots that make the same comment every thread. It's not shutting down the threads but it is indicative of an unwillingness to deal with the subject matter. Also class doesn't come into this thread unless you really want it to.

Not true. If a man from a poor council house in Ballymun scrimped and saved to go to University and ended up becoming a millionaire during the IT boom then can you honestly say that he's part of the same class as the average social welfare recipient?

This is really about insecurities I think. People project theirs onto you if they feel you're moving ahead of them in some way they feel they're lacking.

If you're a highly educated person, the first thing a person who's insecure about their own level of education will do is downgrade the significance or worth of further education. You hear it often, she/he might have a PhD, but they have no real life smarts! etc. I think, like snobbery, that begrudgery is sometimes insecurity misinterpreted.

KomradeBishop

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You can apply this logic to a lot of what gets posted on the internet. Take the new James Bond film. It would surprise me if there were plenty of comments from people saying that it didn't interest them or Craig is terrible in the role, etc... Why post then?

You're not challenging my claim here, that people post like that, to dissuade discussion of class-based topics - you're only claiming that people do that for other types of topic too.

So - implicitly (though I suspect you'll roll back and deny it), you're acknowledging that people are trying to dissuade discussion of this kind of topic, as you're trying to shift attention to people doing it to other types of topic too.

So your original question "Who exactly is shutting down these discussions?" is answered, and you've acknowledged that answer, by implicitly accepting people are trying to dissuade discussion of the topic.

Tarzana2

steddyeddy wrote: »

The same idiots that make the same comment every thread. It's not shutting down the threads but it is indicative of an unwillingness to deal with the subject matter. Also class doesn't come into this thread unless you really want it to.

How many times do you need this thrashed out though? You say you've never started a thread on the subject of begrudgery but to be honest, it's in the same vein as a lot of your threads. I don't think it's healthy to be so preoccupied with class and snobbery and social standing. It indicates a real chip on one's shoulder and an inferiority complex about one's background. And a lot of your own posts are quite snobbish and elitist in their own way; running down people's academic achievements, considering other degree subjects inferior to the sciences, thinking that PhDs are the smartest of the smart etc. etc.

sonny.knowles

Candie wrote: »

This is really about insecurities I think. People project theirs onto you if they feel you're moving ahead of them in some way they feel they're lacking.

If you're a highly educated person, the first thing a person who's insecure about their own level of education will do is downgrade the significance or worth of further education. You hear it often, she/he might have a PhD, but they have no real life smarts! etc. I think, like snobbery, that begrudgery is sometimes insecurity misinterpreted.

My opinions on education are based on my experience in software development for more than 15 years.

I honestly can't see a benefit or a point in most people doing an IT related PhD.

It's not going to make someone a better software developer, it just inflates the persons salary expectations.

We also need to differentiate between those who do a PhD before gaining experience versus those who go back to college.

Isaiah

There is loads of it about in Dublin. I remember when I left my job to go to into a dream job(for my line of work), when I told my colleagues I was leaving they reacted normally, but when they asked why and I told them that I got X job the jealousy coming out of some of them was palpable. A few of them just stopped talking to me from that moment. These are people I would talk to regularly before hand, not as friends but always as friendly work colleagues.

As soon as they saw me progressing with my career they changed their tune.

KomradeBishop

Tarzana2 wrote: »

How many times do you need this thrashed out though? You say you've never started a thread on the subject of begrudgery but to be honest, it's in the same vein as a lot of your threads. I don't think it's healthy to be so preoccupied with class and snobbery and social standing. It indicates a real chip on one's shoulder and an inferiority complex about one's background. And a lot of your own posts are quite snobbish and elitist in their own way; running down people's academic achievements, considering other degree subjects inferior to the sciences, thinking that PhDs are the smartest of the smart etc. etc.

It's none of your business what people are 'preoccupied' with tbh (not that I'm agreeing, with any accusations of being preoccupied) - people can start a thread on whatever they like.

The above indicates more, that you have a problem with this kind of topic - especially with how you try to cast personal aspersions for bringing it up.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Not true. If a man from a poor council house in Ballymun scrimped and saved to go to University and ended up becoming a millionaire during the IT boom then can you honestly say that he's part of the same class as the average social welfare recipient?

Right please forget class. Let's say two professionals of the same class live adjacent to each other on a street. One dies slightly better through hard work and buys a new car. The other might begrudge him/her that.

I'm not talking exclusively about low income to high income.

Tarzana2

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's none of your business what people are 'preoccupied' with tbh

It's my business if I wish it to be, as this is a discussion board. Just likes it's anyone's business to comment upon my own posting history if they so wish.

I don't have a problem with the subject matter of the thread, I just don't see the point in the OP starting multiple threads on the same kinds of things, especially as he seems so obdurate in his views. What is the point?

Isaiah

Where are the Mods in this arguement about who can start threads on what? Why does nearly every thread have to have a few people trying to shut it down or undermine it's validity?

Surely this should be a moderators job. It really disrupts the discussion of the topic and the thread ends up looking like the Journal.ie comments section where everyone is bickering about everything BUT the topic raised in the OP.

ThinkProgress

steddyeddy wrote: »

"resentment of any person who has achieved success or wealth"- Irish

This was brought up a few times in my last thread. My mother always told me progress in Ireland and England and they'll resent it but rise up in America and they'll pat you on the back. I only experienced this once or twice so I think it's exaggerated. Is this something you've experienced?

Yep, it's very true. And sadly our country is worse than most others I've lived in. Shower of jealous begrudging wa**ers on this island.

Also a heavy under current of schadenfreude permeates this society too!

kneemos wrote: »

You can be as successful as you like,just be humble.

Bullsh!t...

Most who begrudge will do so regardless of how humble you are! You even get resentment for being too nice or clean-cut in this country... you gotta have dirt on you or be damaged/suffering in some way for people to respect you.

That's why the art of self-deprecation is essential if you want to survive among the hordes in this land.

Hulk Hands

Banjo String wrote: »

To think this is unique to ireland is a bit of an exaggeration op, I can think of loads of successful business people that get constant ridicule in their own country also.

Simon Cowell.
Donald Trump.

Both successful in their own rights, and both constantly on the receiving end of criticism in their own respective homelands.

The fact that they both are a pair of bellends is purely coincidental, but you get my sentiments .

Cowell I agree with. Don't think he's a bellend at all either.

But Trump? The current favorite going around twitter is that if he simply invested his inheritance from his father in an index fund when he received it, he'd have more money today. Someone with the money, contacts, name and situation left to him would have to have been an utter idiot not to be very wealthy today.

KERSPLAT!

Mod

The thread is about Begrudgery. If you have issues with what threads are allowed or not allowed in AH PM a mod or Cmod or take it to Helpdesk or Feedback. If you have issues with particular posts or threads that posters start then report the post, don't drag the thread off topic.

Back on topic please.

Thelomen Toblackai

The whole Irish begrudgery thing is just completely overblown. The main Irish past-time is actually whinging. Here we are whinging about begrudgery.

jd1983

It's completely exaggerated in an Irish context. In some situations I think there should be more begrudgery, I certainly begrudge the likes of seanie fitzpatrick or certain nama developers continuing with their lifestyle despite reeking havoc on a lot of people's lives. Often people in Ireland admire successful people (cute hoor crap) who have amassed their gains by fuking over other people rather than begrudge them