Can't zero in .22lr

shooting101

Hello all,

Me and my dad are having problems setting in a cz 455 thumbhole .22lr, I've recently got the training licence, anyways we have a
Cz 455 thumbhole
Bushnell banner 6x18x50
And it has been a problem since we got it brand new, first we tried it way out we thought we zeroed it in around 80 yards all happy then we went out and never got anything, one of the rabbits were I'd say 20 yards away and nothing, then we tried it again shoots where not grouping, we treid cleaning the gun etc nothing and then my dad got the idea that it was the scope and it was loose so we tightened it up and bingo we got it zeroed then after going hunting we got one rabbit not good by any standards, but we only seen three, now we tried to check that it was zeroed and it was shooting high, then we tightend the scope and it was shooting high and left, now we feeling very annoyed, and we're deciding to getting a bench rest tomorrow, were using sellier and bellot ammo subsonic, would that be the problem cheap ammo? Was anyone used the specific brand?
Any one have any ideas?

Thanks.

Luckysasha

Most RFD will offer a service where they zero it for you. It cost me €40. I have a Cz 455 .22. They zeroed it to 70 yards since then I have only had to make tiny adjustments left and right but the elevation is spot on. I am now grouping well at 100 yards. I have a nikko sterling 4-12 x 50 scope. I mostly use cci subsonics or stingers but not a huge amount of difference in the grouping.

juice1304

well you certainly need to make sure the mounts are good and tight use loctite if needed, each rifle is different and will group differently with the different brands of ammunition, you should go and get a selection of ammunition and then shoot a few groups on paper and see what is hitting best.

tac foley

How to zero your rifle with just TWO shots - I've been doing this for around fifty years or more -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiOpQY2ORo4

tac

BattleCorp

As was mentioned already it's probably a loose or damaged scope.

Does the gun/scope get any hardship? A mate was giving out about his scope not holding zero so I zeroed it for him. Next week he was back again giving out. I zeroed it again and went shooting for a few rabbits with him. In between shots he never bothered casing up the gun. It was left on the floor of the van while he drove down the most bumpy lanes in Ireland. With it hopping around in the back of the van, no wonder it didn't hold zero.

shooting101

Thanks for your replies

We do the best to keep the gun clean of nicks and that and put it in a case when driving, I honestly think it's the scope, it's very good sight, would it be the rings that keep in in place the problem? We're getting some ammunition different brands

Thanks.

cw67irl

where abouts in the country are you? Chances are someone nearby can have a look at it for you

Snake_Doctor

You have two unknowns - the gun and the scope. If you can shoot it at say 20 yds on open sights - it should group very close (depending on shooter) at this distance. This will eliminate the gun. Is there a silencer? if yes remove it as well.
If the gun is OK, then the scope is the issue, again it must be solidly mounted, and if there is still an issue try to get it to someone who is used to zeroing.

Cass

Fairly long post, but please read it through.

Common causes include:

1. Scope - Self explanatory really. A faulty scope will "jump" with each shot, not track, etc.
2. Mounts - If they are not tight enough, misaligned, etc. they can cause issues with zeroing.
3. Ammo - Depending on twist rate and what your gun likes poor quality or just a "bad fit" ammo will cause zeroing issues. Solution is to try various brands/weights and see which works.
4. Suppressor - If the threading of the rifle is not done properly, or on the rare occasion the threading of the Mod is not correct, you will get a misaligned suppressor causing the ammo to clip the mod on leaving. This clipping can be so subtle you might not see it. A way to test is line the inside of the muzzle of the mod with tip-ex or something similar and when you fire a round check to see if there is mark or void in the tip-ex (or whatever you've used). If so you can try and bore out the mod or get the rifle re-threaded.
5. Stock - If the stock is touching the barreled action it can interfere with the barrel harmonics.
6. Crown - If the crown is damaged it will cause widening of the groups. It's a small area and unless you know what you're looking for you might not see a problem. Gunsmith can check and re-crown if necessary.

There are some things you can do to check the above.

1. Scope - If you had it on another rifle and it worked then grand, however a hmr is a different animal to a Swift so try the scope on another centrefire rifle. A mate's. Also a box test might be useful when on the other rifle.
2. Mounts - Check that the screws are tight and that the mounts are not shifting on the receiver/rail. Also check the scope is held in the mounts and not slipping in the rings.
3. Ammo - Try different brands, and different weights of ammo. See which performs the best.
4. Suppressor - Shoot the rifle with the mod off and see if the problem persists. If so the mod is the issue. If not then it's not the mod. Or not ONLY the mod. Bring to gunsmith to check/repair.
5. Stock - Slide a piece of folded paper up along the top of stock/bottom of barrel and it should be able to get to the front of the receiver/action without obstruction. If it sticks at any point then mark the stock and look at sanding the stock. If it's composite the same applies.
6. Crown - Bring to gunsmith.

Two big issues with scopes, new or second hand, is zero hold & tracking. Tracking refers to the scopes ability to be dialed in/adjusted, but return to a preset setting. For example your zero or to accurately and repeatedly move the exact amount you dial. Zero hold is self explanatory. The ability of your scope to maintain a preset zero without loosing it due to movement, etc.

Yoy need to test the scope. This can be very hard as a lot of factors can affect this. Factory ammo compared to handloads (inconsistencies with speed, etc), weather conditions (wind, etc), shooting position, etc, etc. There are a couple of tests if you fancy doing one or some.

Linear Test.

This is a simple test. Place a target (blank sheet of paper at least 48 inches tall and 24" wide) at a set distance with a single aim point/dot. With your scope mounted you take up a solid and stable shooting position. Have the gun as "clamped" as possible to avoid errors. Have the scope elevation set at 0 or bottomed out. Now dial up in increments of 5 or 10 MOA (or any amount you want) and fire a single shot after each adjustment.

You MUST keep the same point of aim throughout this test. Also use the same amount of adjustment each time until you run out of adjustment. ?When you have no adjustment left take the target down, and measure the distances between each bullet hole in the target. They should be equidistant. They should also be perfectly vertical. Any continuous left/right adjustment can be down to either poorly mounted scope (not perfectly aligned when mounted) or inability of the scope to track straight up and down. Do this once or twice to verify.

Return to Zero test

Simple test. With your scope mounted and rifle zeroed at 100 yards set yourself up much as above at a target. Fire 3 to 5 shots to create a zero group. Record the setting on the scope for your zero as you'll have to return to this. Now start to adjust the scope as much as you can (through it's entire range of adjustment) up, down, left, right and combinations of all. Now return the scope to the recorded zero. Fire a shot. It should be in or clipping the group you just fired. If not then it could be a scope tracking issue. As with all tests it's best to try it a few times to prevent corruption of the results from shooter error, wind, shooting position, etc.

Box Test

Put up a sheet of paper (blank) at 100 yards. About 48" square would be fine but as big as you have is grand. Find the dead centre of the sheet of paper. Place a half inch black dot in the centre. This is your aim point. You want no other markings on the paper to distract you. You need to be very careful that its 100 yard and no more or less than 100 by a yard. Most scopes click values are designed to work at 100 yards so you really need to be sure of the distance. Fire a couple of shots, and make sure you are in the bull with each one, and your zero is perfectly on for 100. That means not an inch high, or low.

Once you have the "perfect" zero put up a fresh target or if they are all in the black dot you can use the same sheet. Again making sure its still as bang on for 100 yards as possible. Now dial up 10 MOA (40clicks) on the scope. If the scope is worked in 1 click = 1cm @ 100 yads dial on 25clicks. That'll give you 25cm or roughly 10 inches. Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial right 10 MOA (for 0.25 click valus scope) or 25 clicks (for 1cm per click). Again aim at the bullseye, and fire.

Now dial down 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial left 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial up 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

It's important you only fire 1 shot per adjustment. Measure the distances from holes to holes. The holes of the bullets should "draw" a perfect (within a half an inch for human error) square. You should have something like this:




The problem, as i touched on above, with all these tests is:

• Shooting position/platform
• Ammo
• Weather conditions
• Shooter ability
• Rifle ability

If any of these is not "at it's best" then results may not be accurate, but it's still possible to do the tests and get a rough idea of your scopes ability.[/QUOTE]

J.R.

By any chance have you crushed the body of the scope where the mounts are?...........just something else to eliminate.

Mounts need to be tight to hold scope in place but you don't necessarily need to tighten the mount screws up to the very last - only until tight & a snug fit.

As you tightened the mounts & tightened the mounts again this may be a possibility.

It's easy to rule out by undoing the mounts and having a look at the body of the scope.

If all is okay tighten up mounts......in opposite corners, then other corners .....don't tighten one mount screw to the last and then move to the other....tighten in rotation moving around to each, tightening it up a bit, until all are snugly tightened.

extremetaz

Get yourself to a target range and shoot some groups from the bench to see what sort of spread you're producing.

I'm not familiar with the ammo brand you're using, but being honest, the price difference between cheap ****e and match grade in 22lr is so small that I can't fathom why anyone wouldn't buy the good stuff and just rule ammo out of the accuracy equation altogether.

I'd be surprised to find a problem with a Bushnell Banner scope, but crush is a concern if it was mounted without due care in the first instance.

Have you or your dad much experience in shooting before getting this rifle?
I only ask because hitting a 2" target, freehand, at 20 yards isn't as sure a shot as you might assume if you don't know what you're doing.

Personally I couldn't be sure there's anything wrong with your setup at all until I knew that you could shoot straight to begin with - and I don't mean that with any sort of disrespect - if you're novice to shooting then there are a lot of small factors which come into play which may lead to you believing that the rifle isn't set up right. For instance, your height discrepancy could be on account of range to target, windage discrepancy could be on account of wind or cant, and your trigger pull can affect both - there's a hundred different reasons why your shot could go astray when you're starting off. So as said earlier, I expect your best course of action is to get yourself to a range and put a few dozen rounds on paper before you start screwing around with your rig too much.

shooting101

Hello all,

Sorry for the late replie, thanks for your replies,
I forgot to say that we do have a moderator, my dad has at experience but hasn't shoot in the last while, due to working abroad for a while, he has 270 and .223 no problems zeroing it in, I'll will try and update tomorrow with your suggestions!

Thanks.

deeksofdoom

Make sure the moderator is tight on the barrel, make sure that both you and your father are putting it on the same way.

sfakiaman

Two problems I've had over the years that are not mentioned above, were a loose ocular lens on the scope and slightly loose stock screws caused by central heating pipes behind the gun safe.

shooting101

Update we got a brand new scope of the same model of the dealer, which is good, also forgot to mention, that we zeroed it in with one of my dads Freinds in to an 2cm and the next day it was shooting out I'd say 2-3inches... Will update when we zero it in next week


Thanks

Cass

Run through the details of what you're doing.

1. Mounting the scope
2. Tightening the scope
3. Ammo used
4. Shooting style
5. Shooting position
6. Equipment used
7. Distance
8. Conditions

Also you should always zero your own scope. Not that you cannot get help, but if someone zeros it for you they should be checking that the eye relief, parallax, etc are all set for you and not them.

tac foley

As an aside to the excellent advice given by Cass, I'll just add that securing screws on scopes need to be tightened to between 20 and 30 INCH pounds only, NOT, as I tried to explain to a puzzled shooter a while back - not FOOT pounds.

Advice on these torque setting can be found on most quality mount and ring brand sites.

It is also very important to note that the little gap between the sections of the rings is equal on both sides - this is achieved by alternating the tightening sequence as it is done up.

tac

skipking

try taking off the moderator and see will it group without it, if so then it is the moderator. i would also try a different
set of mounts.

Dai John

I zero my .22LR by placing the rifle in a "Workmate" and fire one shot at a blank piece of paper at 18 yards. I then adjust the cross-hairs onto the bullet hole. A 40 grn Winchester at 18 yards is bang on again at 50 yards. If I shoot at 100 yds I aim 4" high and work on those figures and avoid touching the scope again. Works for me.

shooting101

UPDATE: after getting new scope the same problems persist! It seems when we click right it doesn't go that direction at all, I know this may seem stupid but trust me, we are actually thinking of getting a new gun after this... It just doesn't hold zero...

Thanks

Vegeta

I'm not trying to be smart or offensive but maybe a new set of eyes on the problem is what is warranted.

I'm sure anyone here would be more than willing to help out, myself included if you live near me.

German pointer

I'd be willing to have a look at it myself if he is near to me.

Limerick or Connamara

extremetaz

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm sure anyone here would be more than willing to help out, myself included if you live near me.

Likewise (North Kildare/Westmeath area)

shooting101

Hi

Thanks for all the help, we've got a person to look at the gun today he zero it in near bullseye, no problems for him, and then after a day it's just lost it zero, could it be the barrel? He's done this twice for us, and that same day he zerod it in and we went for a little shoot and got 2 rabbits then the next day it's been shooting high and left, it been doing since.. Shooting groups.

Buggs

If you have a moderator on the rifle are you putting it on at the same tightness all the time?

Vegeta

How high and left is it shooting?

shooting101

It's shooting 2 inches high and left, we were thinking it was a mount problem? I know there isn't any kick back in the .22lr but if there cheap mounts? Should I try and order a good pair online? What would you suggest?

Cass

At the risk off sounding like a dick, are you sure you know how to zero? You're dialing the right way?

As for loosing zero constantly, it's really bad luck to get a new scope that is faulty, but a not to get one that has the same problem. If you run through anything from my post (#9)

If you want i'm happpy to meet you on the range someday, i'll sign you in, and we'll run through it and see what the problem is.

shooting101

Hi Cass,

I know where you and others are thinking, that we were doing it wrong, me and my dad thought so too, but when it's zerod in, why does it go back to the same place either high and left, or left? After a day or so? We keep it in place where it won't move or the scope won't get hit to move the zero! What do you think?

Thanks.

Cass

Try answer as many of these as best you can (with as much info as you have).

• What rings are you using?
• Are they mounted directly onto the dovetail rail or via a picatinny rail?
• Are you using a suppressor?
• Is it tight each time it's put on?
• Does it stay tight during firing?
• Are there are nicks, scraps or abrasions on the edge of the Suppressor from a bullet possibly touching?
• Do you understand that most scopes dial in the opposite direction to how they are marked on the scope?
• What ammo are you using?
• Do you change ammo during testing?
• What is your distance to target?
• Is this constant?
• What are the weather conditions?
• Are they constant (or as close as can be) during firing?
• Are you left or right handed?
• Is the trigger factory set?
• Did you reduce the trigger weight with a spring kit or full trigger?

shooting101

[*]What rings are you using?
Actually we don't even know the make! That's why we were wanting to get a new pair of mount.
[*]Are they mounted directly onto the dovetail rail or via a picatinny rail?
Onto the dovetail
[*]Are you using a suppressor?
We where till we suspected it was doing something to the bullets, it was a second hand and hasn't in the best nic
[*]Is it tight each time it's put on?
Yes, it was only loose once.
[*]Does it stay tight during firing?
Yes
[*]Are there are nicks, scraps or abrasions on the edge of the Suppressor from a bullet possibly touching?
Stopped using the moderator, didn't see anything
[*]Do you understand that most scopes dial in the opposite direction to how they are marked on the scope?
Not till now, I did suspect that when we had it in the bench rest that when we dialled it left it would go right and so forth so we went with that, left for right, right for left
[*]What ammo are you using?
Cci subsonic
[*]Do you change ammo during testing?
Yes we change from Winchester
[*]What is your distance to target?
60 yards
[*]Is this constant?
Yes
[*]What are the weather conditions?
Fine, sunny, no wind
[*]Are they constant (or as close as can be) during firing?
Yes they do shoot groups tight groups
[*]Are you left or right handed?
Right
[*]Is the trigger factory set?
Yes
[*]Did you reduce the trigger weight with a spring kit or full trigger?
We didn't touch anything to do with the moderator

Cass

shooting101 wrote: »

Actually we don't even know the make! That's why we were wanting to get a new pair of mount.

It's a .22lr so top of the market rings are not a priority. However the more you can afford the better.

Onto the dovetail

You should look into a picatinny rail, and then a set of picatinny rings. Much better setup, better grip for the scope to the rifle, and better hold. Look at DIP Picatinny rail and you'll see what i mean.

Not till now, I did suspect that when we had it in the bench rest that when we dialled it left it would go right and so forth so we went with that, left for right, right for left

The idea behind it is the scope dials the opposite direction to make you physically move the rifle in the proper direction.

Yes we change from Winchester

I mean do you change during testing? IOW do you use the same ammo all the time? It's to eliminate ammo as a reason.

We didn't touch anything to do with the moderator

I meant the trigger.

My CZ455 had a trigger weight of over 5lb., It felt like the safety was on and it resulted in shots going off. IOW i was pulling the trigger so hard to get "over" the excessive weight of the trigger that is was putting my shots off.

I fixed this by replacing the trigger spring, and trigger shim. It brought it from 5.5lb down to 1.25 and mt groups got very tight and consistent.


Last question, you are shooting with the Mod off at the moment? Is it still the same? Shooting high and left? If so then it's not the Mod and my next item to look at would be the rings. Also i have some spare trigger springs and shims somewhere. If i can find them i'll send you on some to try, and it might improve the trigger some. Even if that is not the problem it's a good step to take.

Where are you based? County will do. I ask because if you are around the midlands i'll meet you on the Midlands range and go through this with you. Your Father is welcome to come along too.

It's much easier to spot something and fix it by looking at it and working on it than trying to guess things over the net.

shooting101

Thanks Cass

Sorry meant the trigger, I did read that it was heavy, but what would we do to change it down like yours is it long process? We noticed that it really hard to pull it back properly..

We are currently shooting without the moderator same thing on and of
We don't actually change but we have moved from another make I can't think of it right now sorry but we went to Winchester to the dearer cci

I'm based in Galway!

Cass

shooting101 wrote: »

......... but what would we do to change it down like yours is it long process?

YoDave trigger kit.

The process for changing the trigger is very simple. It means stripping the gun down and removing the barreled action so if you're unsure i'd suggest you get someone proficient to do it for you. Have a look at these videos and it'll show how it's done. Takes about 10 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnnGrMfh5EM

We are currently shooting without the moderator same thing

So the Mod is not the problem. I'd say it's the rings, barring the rifle itself is faulty, but that;s a very, VERY long shot.

I'm based in Galway!

As said if you fancy the drive to the Midlands, and i'll spend as much time as you need to get it sorted.

shooting101

Thanks for the help Cass,

What mounts would you suggest? For a 50mm scope? Is it a thing for you that your mounts go loose? Or should it stay tight when you have tightened it, my dad thought that these weren't right, they've been tit for tat and you would have to check if there tightend every few days.
Thanks.

Cass

shooting101 wrote: »

What mounts would you suggest?

DIP picatinny rail



Rings are based on budget and availability. So look for (prices are averages):
Warne - €80
Burris - €65
Leupold - €40 - €75
Sportsmatch - €25

in that order. Anything better than Warne will cost in excess of €100.

For a 50mm scope?

Each manufacturer has different ways to measure the height of their rings. So for one set you might need high, another extra high, and another medium. The height you need in Millimetres is about 30 mm. So find out what height each manufacturer says would equal 30mm and that is the height you go for.

Is it a thing for you that your mounts go loose?

Never.

Or should it stay tight when you have tightened it, my dad thought that these weren't right, they've been tit for tat and you would have to check if there tightend every few days.
.

That would seem to be a problem right there. Rings should be tightened once, and while it's a good habit to check them regularly they should not NEED to be tightened continuously.

shooting101

That's great thanks a mill Cass!
Will put on the new mounts soon!

Cheers Cillian.

shooting101

That's great thanks a mill Cass!
Will put on the new mounts soon!

Cheers Cillian.

cookimonster

Can you post pictures of the set up -detailing scope mounts, mounted scope, crown and if possible the stock minus the barreled action?

Have a look at the stock to see if there is warping, swelling or uneveness. Check that the sling stud us not in contact with the barrel.

Have you checked that the cross hairs of the scope are centred, regardless of the fact you replaced the scope, insure that it has not been over adjusted to one degree or another.

Lastly just to eliminate one more factor, how do you transport the rife - gun case , padded gun bag or a simple gun slip.

When you say won't hold zero and consistently returns to a different but consistent point of impact for different shooters would IMO point to a mechanical influence (stress, pressure or external force) rather then shooter technique or characteristics of the rifle.

Ah ... the last posts came in when I was typeing with my sausage fingers, lose mounts definitely not good, check that threads have not been stripped or that they are in fact suitable for CZ dove tails.

Cass

Thinking as i type so see if i'm wrong or not making sense.

I'm thinking that the mounts are not so much loose as there is an imperfection in them causing them to loosen. If they shift from the zero to a high & left "zero", but hold there it would suggest that there may be some imperfection in the rings (most likely in the piece of the ring that clamps it to the dovetail), but once at this "new zero" it achieves the grip it needs to hold. In the process it may loosen slightly, hence the need for the OP to constantly tighten them, and by doing so he pulls it back into the position whereby the imperfection is once again causing the issue.

Cass

Of course the simple and most obvious solution would be as you said cookie, that there is an issue with the threading on the rings and this is causing the issue.

cookimonster

Cass, your rational is correct, I would think loose mounts would cause inconsistent POI but damaged or faulty components could replicate the same results time after time....

shooting101

That's correct Cass,

After checking again today ther loose again and quite loose! Where would you suggest getting them online or should I just get them in my local firearm dealer?

Thanks Cillian.

Cass

The picatinny rail might be a problem to get, but if the rings are the problem then another set to fit dovetail rail will/should solve the problem.

I'd recommend you go to an RFD with the gun to avoid ordering the wrong size/height. I reckon you'll need at least a high set if not extra high. They'll need to be 25mm/1" tube, and high/extra high to fit a 9-11mm dovetail rail (this is what the CZ have).

I used a set of Hawke ones. They are only €25 and i've used them to great success on everything from .17 to .223. not saying they're the best so if you have more to spend by all means go for, but getting a better brand in the specs you need is not easy. Whereas the Hawke ones are stored in most every RFD. They may also be called Sportsmatch.

shooting101

Hi Cass,

After looking at the various shootinf shops online I saw the exact same and they were Hawke double screw nut, do you think it was the mounts or the dovetail?

Thanks.

Cass

shooting101 wrote: »

, do you think it was the mounts or the dovetail?

Thanks.

It's nearly 100% not the dovetail as this is part of the receiver and is a fixed item. By fixed i mean it's part of the gun and not a feature that is added later on. If the dovetail were the problem then it's a faulty gun and needs to go back to the dealer.

Most likely, and going on what you said about the problem and how it changes, it's the rings.

garv123

I had a problem with my hmr where it was losing zero. I paid 50quid for second hand "Good Mounts" off my local RFD.

I was blaming the scope Since my Very very very local RFD wouldnt sell me ****e right? Ud think so until the mounts got so loose once they slid off the gun. Never bought a thing off the Wánker after that.

Sportsmatch mounts are great value for money, ive had a few sets now and never had an issue with any. Really does sound like it could be the mounts.

Melodeon

This isn't the classic '3/8" mount on a 9mm dovetail' scenario by any chance, is it???

Cass

Could be. For European rifles it's always 9-11 mm.

Another solution i was thinking of was buying a set of 9-11mm dovetail to picatinny adaptors and then buying picatinny rings to suit.

Melodeon

Yeah, I'm just wondering if the OP has wound up with 3/8" mounts, which at 9.5mm wouldn't tighten properly on a 9mm dovetail.
They'd appear to be pretty snug, but either the screws would be bottomed out on their threads or the clamp would be wound down solid and at the same time the jaws of the mount wouldn't be all that tight on the dovetail on the receiver.

Also, if the mounts have a 2-piece clamp, the movable piece could be flipped over leading to tightening issues too.

garv123

Melodeon wrote: »

Yeah, I'm just wondering if the OP has wound up with 3/8" mounts, which at 9.5mm wouldn't tighten properly on a 9mm dovetail.
They'd appear to be pretty snug, but either the screws would be bottomed out on their threads or the clamp would be wound down solid and at the same time the jaws of the mount wouldn't be all that tight on the dovetail on the receiver.

Do most mounts not say they fit 9-11mm dovetails though?