Nissan XE vs SV and PCP or not PCP

BoatMad

Ruairi.g wrote: »

Regarding chargers, am I correct in saying that nissan supply a 3.3kw charging lead with the car and the people who supply the home charger fit a new charger wired from the circuit board with a dedicated 16amp mcb.
Why cant they supply the home charger with a 32 amp mcb, the difference in cost is insignificant. I see charging cables can be bought in the UK for approximately £160. Is this spurious uk charger any good. I know these are questions that have possibly been discussed before, but I am new to the conversation about electric vehicles. Forgive my ignorance please!!

The issue is that many homes are loaded enough to prevent the use of 32 circuits, and the ESB will not spend time profiling your usage and peak circuit loading , hence the operational limit of 16 A.

The evse is not a charger, that's in the car. , the evse regulates what max power can be drawn by the car charger from the mains. It ranges from 6a ( 1.2 kW) to max charger typically. The granny cable , IE with my family integrated evse is limited to 10A , IE 2.3kw

To use 32 a evses on a single phase domestic setup , really needs a load shedding evse, these are not common as they have to be integrated into,your domestic circuitry.

Yes the uk evses will work here

I can assure people here that the ESB not keen on providing 32 amp EVSE's has got nothing to do with home wiring.

Any competent electrician can tell you pretty quickly whether your home is suitable for 32 amp charging and can install the 16 amp EVSE instead.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes and at 30 cents per minute charging as proposed, that Engadget check will cost you 5 euros !!!

Won't cost me a cent with the work charge point.

Even if it id I'd pay 80 Euro's PM do drive 2,500 Kms per month including charging at night if I were to work a regular 9-5 5 days a week job. Now let me calculate that in petrol or diesel ................................... !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Won't cost me a cent with the work charge point.

Even if it id I'd pay 80 Euro's PM do drive 2,500 Kms per month including charging at night if I were to work a regular 9-5 5 days a week job. Now let me calculate that in petrol or diesel ................................... !

Please talk first to any competent electrican about the issues around 32 amp circuits , especially ones that are likely to be energised for a long time.

Come back to us then.

There is ONE and only ONE. reason not to install 32 A evse circuits in a domestic environment. That is the risk that the max loading will trip the ESB fuses.

There is NOTHING else. House wiring in itself is never the issue as a 32 A circuit will be supplied directly from the distribution board. The house wiring will not be carrying the evse current.
If it came to it , you could even install a supplemental board and bypass the existing board.

The only reason is total house load. That's it folks. Electricity isn t magic.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Won't cost me a cent with the work charge point.

Even if it id I'd pay 80 Euro's PM do drive 2,500 Kms per month including charging at night if I were to work a regular 9-5 5 days a week job. Now let me calculate that in petrol or diesel ................................... !

Fine fine , we get it, you're ok. , you're fine , you're sorted. , we get it.

Lantus

OK, so after getting over the charging for public points debacle I think I'm.still up for an EV. The change will be getting the 30kwh battery which is now cheaper to safeguard against needing to charge except on really long journeys.

How do existing EV owners feel? I don't feel it has killed the market as next gen batteries will make charging very limited (500km ranges) its a patch that has to be gotten through

Lantus

Lantus wrote: »

OK, so after getting over the charging for public points debacle I think I'm.still up for an EV. The change will be getting the 30kwh battery which is now cheaper to safeguard against needing to charge except on really long journeys.

How do existing EV owners feel? I don't feel it has killed the market as next gen batteries will make charging very limited (500km ranges) its a patch that has to be gotten through

Excellent stuff !

First off there is no EV market in Ireland really, 0.4 % new car sales are Ev so pretty much no market to kill it will be a set back but the more negativity expressed here and in the media the more it won't help.

The 30 Kwh battery is a good choice and it also allows you to (fast charge) charge 18-80% in the same time as the 24 Kwh battery giving you more range for the same time saving you at the fast charger and also by having more cheap night rate leccy in the battery to begin with !

I highly recommend the 6.6 kw charger , and especially so since the standard street chargers continue to have no per minute billing (with the 17 Pm charge)

But charging at home in half the time is a real bonus, to absolute 100% will only be an hour and a half in the difference but to 80-90% will take half the time. The last 8-10% takes a long time.

Pre wire your home for 32 amps and insist you want the 32 amp home charge point, you will probably not get it, they wouldn't allow me have it at all but if you pre wire for 32 amps from the consumer unit all the way back to the charge point then all you need is a 32 amp evse and 32 amp RCBO in the consumer unit.

I'm highly glad I have the 32 amp charger now and plan to install the 32 amp home evse !

Yes I know I go on a lot about the 32 amp charger but I find it too convenient not to have it when I need it and I will need it a lot more now so I am extra glad I have it now !

BoatMad

A 6.6 kW charger will draw 28.5 A from a nominal 230 vac circuit. You need to be quite careful if you have any other high demand appliances on your domestic circuits before you consider a 32 A circuit . High powered showers are typically around similar values and if you have one of these thread very carefully.

If you do get a 32a evse make sure it's programmable for other lower charging currents so that you can tailor the charge to suit the domestic load.

Blowing the Esb fuses is an expensive mistake.

My view is that dc charging will be the only way to charge in the future especially with large battery banks. Charging 60-100 kWh banks at home in any reasonable timeframe will be impossible , especially within any sort of night rate timescale. The fcp,network will be of key importance for longer journeys as EVs assume the role of the " normal car " , when I was driving for business doing 600 - 800km per day was commonplace.

Also as we push EVs up to to full motorways speeds in all weathers and headwinds etc , again the existence of fcp will be important.

I don't think it's a "patch that's to be gotten through " however. This will set EV pricing for years to come

@20

If you need the 200-240 mile range of the 60 kwh battery quickly the DC is king however if you don't then charging at home is more than feasible.

Telsa have twin 10 Kw charger option on the model S so you could charge the 90 kwh battery at home on 3 phase @20 kw in about 5-6 hrs or at least to 90% in about 4.5 hrs roughly.

3 phase is expensive and rare in a domestic environment in Ireland so this cost would have to come down but it's possible that not far into the future we could have the option of a 20 kw DC charger installed at home. Though in reality not many of us need 200 miles range a day.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

If you need the 200-240 mile range of the 60 kwh battery quickly the DC is king however if you don't then charging at home is more than feasible.

Telsa have twin 10 Kw charger option on the model S so you could charge the 90 kwh battery at home on 3 phase @20 kw in about 5-6 hrs or at least to 90% in about 4.5 hrs roughly.

3 phase is expensive and rare in a domestic environment in Ireland so this cost would have to come down but it's possible that not far into the future we could have the option of a 20 kw DC charger installed at home. Though in reality not many of us need 200 miles range a day.

You're a great man for future gazing , but fortunately , like the rest of us you've no better idea , what might happen. You could and will most likely be wrong. Your future advice on Esb charging was wrong.

All one can do is deal with whatever one has to hand. today. The future is the future.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

You're a great man for future gazing , but fortunately , like the rest of us you've no better idea , what might happen. You could and will most likely be wrong. Your future advice on Esb charging was wrong.

All one can do is deal with whatever one has to hand. today. The future is the future.

So you think people will rather pay more for public charging than charge at home far more conveniently ?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

So you think people will rather pay more for public charging than charge at home far more conveniently ?

Because of the limited power and hence long charge cycles , home charging will be only one of the options needed by BEVs user to make their cars suitable for all types of motoring

Hence fcp has its place , or greater or lessor importance to certain EV users.

The Esb could have easily bought in an interim discounted rate per kWh at fcp sites. It could even bill back through retail bills in essence providing wholesale fcp units to the users retail provider.

Instead it prce gouged

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Because of the limited power and hence long charge cycles , home charging will be only one of the options needed by BEVs user to make their cars suitable for all types of motoring

Hence fcp has its place , or greater or lessor importance to certain EV users.

The Esb could have easily bought in an interim discounted rate per kWh at fcp sites. It could even bill back through retail bills in essence providing wholesale fcp units to the users retail provider.

Instead it prce gouged

I never suggested fast charging wouldn't have it's place but the ability to replace 200 miles range at home is a really good option to have.

Billing through retail bills would add administrator costs considering all the customers who are not Electric Ireland customers.

ESB can't bill per kwh they can only bill for use of the infrastructure. Electric Ireland can do this but they don't own the network and not everyone is an EI customer.

Easiest thing they can do is reduce the per minute charge.

Lantus

6kw charger would be nice but the extra for the battery makes it financially out the equation.

There would be ample time for me to charge overnight.

Not sure how I could get esb to install a 32amp if they don't do it?

Lantus

Lantus wrote: »

6kw charger would be nice but the extra for the battery makes it financially out the equation.

There would be ample time for me to charge overnight.

Not sure how I could get esb to install a 32amp if they don't do it?

They probably won't install the 32 amp home EVSE but I would insist on it and tell them you will pay the difference, they refused me no matter how hard I fought.

Either way I would have the wiring pre-wired for 32 amps from the consumer unit to where you want the charge point and get the 32 amp later on.

You can always sell the 16 amp evse or keep it if you ever get a 2nd ev or install it at a relatives that you visit a lot.

It's quiet scandalous that the 6.6 kw charger is still an option on the 30 kwh battery, it's standard in the U.S, stupid Nissan Ireland just trying to keep the list price low as possible !

steelboots

Hi All,

Thanks for all the useful feedback. The more I research the more confused I get. I had a loan of one the weekend and have to say I was impressed. It was an SV with the 3.3K charger.

They are now doing an offer on the extended range battery for 2K until Christmas, but the Sales guy reckoned for my use (i.e. 54 miles round trip to work, and the odd evening run with kids to soccer etc.. ) the 24kw version would be sufficient but recommended the 6.6 charger....

Now with the ESB charging €17 per month for use of the FCs I'm starting to wonder what they will do next. THe garage had a lovely SVE and have to say the sound system was very impressive and leather was nice and would be easy to clean with kids.

Just a few questions I have:

1) How far have you Leaf owners got out of a full charge ?
2) Have there been any battery capacity issues with you Leaf (i.e. as the years roll on are you getting as far as you used to on a charge) ?
3) The Sales guy didn't seem to be aware to keep a healthy battery you should not regularly go above 80% charge, is this actually the case ?

Thanks !

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

They are now doing an offer on the extended range battery for 2K until Christmas, but the Sales guy reckoned for my use (i.e. 54 miles round trip to work, and the odd evening run with kids to soccer etc.. ) the 24kw version would be sufficient but recommended the 6.6 charger....

It's odd that any sales person would recommend the 6.6 Kw charger but that's good , maybe they're actually beginning to see the value in it.

The 1 K off the 30 Kwh is a good deal and pays for the 6.6 kw charger and I would recommend the 30 kwh because you have more range for a long trip meaning less use of the fast charger, you can go further on your own night rate electricity. And the 6.6 Kw is the only sensible option on the 30 Kwh battery.

steelboots wrote: »

Now with the ESB charging €17 per month for use of the FCs I'm starting to wonder what they will do next. THe garage had a lovely SVE and have to say the sound system was very impressive and leather was nice and would be easy to clean with kids.

No one knows what will happen, and the 17 euro's PM or 30 C/min isn't the end of the world if you only have a 54 mile daily commute, I commute 84 miles and did it with a 10 min fast charge which got me home with 20-25%, the cost is still way cheaper than petrol or diesel.

If you only do a couple of trips a year that require fast charging then sign up when you need it. There is no contract.

steelboots wrote: »

Just a few questions I have:

1) How far have you Leaf owners got out of a full charge ?
2) Have there been any battery capacity issues with you Leaf (i.e. as the years roll on are you getting as far as you used to on a charge) ?
3) The Sales guy didn't seem to be aware to keep a healthy battery you should not regularly go above 80% charge, is this actually the case ?

Thanks !

I don't really drive slow and driving at 100-110 Kph in the height of winter with some 120 stints I would need to be charging by 110 Kms, so after 100 Kms at this speed be close to a charge point.

So say 100 kms be close to a charger with the 24 Kwh battery and 140 Kms with the 30 Kwh.

Summer should see 130 Kms range -140 Kms depending on speed.

High headwinds and very wet roads also have an impact and also tyre pressure, keep pressure up to 37 psi.

Preheating off the mains saves a bit of range also and it's extremely convenient.

The EPA reported the 30 Kwh as having a 107 mile range or 170 Kms but you should see 140-170 Kms.

Having said all this the idea is to top up every opportunity you get rather than run the battery low to see what range you can get.

The 60 Kwh leaf should be available in 2018 but most likely there will be different battery options.

To answer question 2.

I have driven 23,600 Kms since January 20th and according to leaf spy still 100% capacity, though I Started with 67 ah I now have 65 though this varies, if it sits without driving for a few days the reported capacity drops and climbs again after charging and driving but Still I am impressed. Holding up a lot better than the 2011-2013 batteries.

To answer question 3

It's always the case that the more you use of the battery the less life it will have and if you want to "maximise" life and intend to keep it many years this is a good idea.

Batteries don't like to sit idle above about 40-50% charge because it causes extra stresses and the same with letting it sit at too low a charge below 20%.

When I'm off work I charge it to about 40-50% you'll get the hang eventually how long it takes to charge from xx% to xx%.

You can set the timer to charge to 80%.

Keeping it from 30-70% if possible is always good especially when you don't need the range.

NEC have made changes to the battery that have considerable improved it's life compared to the 2011-2013 and just small changes make a big difference to battery life. They could have improved cycle life and /or heat tolerance which would make a big difference.

Because the 60 Kwh battery will see far less cycling it should last many years.

BoatMad

3) The Sales guy didn't seem to be aware to keep a healthy battery you should not regularly go above 80% charge, is this actually the case ?

The leaf control the charging and tapers off the charge very extensively as the battery charges. The 80% commentary came out of the US, because Nissan had serious problems with early batteries in high ambient conditions. Most heat is generated near the end of the charge cycle, as the intercalation rate falls and the excess energy is given off as heat ( simplistic description) .

IN todays batteries, little is to be gained by stopping at 80%, 80% isn't 80% percent anyway. its what the leaf decides to tell you is 80% percent

Lantus

After some hard sums it looks like I won't be going EV just yet. Love the leaf after lots of drives but the car cost alone will exceed a similar petrol based on my mileage and all running costs over three years. Lots of manufacturers are offering zero interest which can save thousands over three years.

Maybe in a few years time.....

BoatMad

Lantus wrote: »

After some hard sums it looks like I won't be going EV just yet. Love the leaf after lots of drives but the car cost alone will exceed a similar petrol based on my mileage and all running costs over three years. Lots of manufacturers are offering zero interest which can save thousands over three years.

Maybe in a few years time.....

Yes ist a very hard car to justify financially , currently Im being quoted a GMFV of under 10K on a SV and the scrappage deal is a joke as in essence you are funding it with the interest from the PCP.

Just buy Diesel, Why would anyone want electric ? it's too cheap to run. Honestly, so cheap you won't believe it.

Diesel is great, all the lag, rattle noise and pollution. And manual gears, Ahhhh lovely driving experience.

Buy a diesel Golf and save a fortune by driving on diesel ! electricity is way too expensive, especially that night rate leccy.

300 Euro's for 20,000 Kms is way more expensive than diesel !

I pay 450 pm for 25 K kms and all that expensive electricity means by not having to pay for ultra cheap petrol or diesel it pays nearly half the repayments, not including tax savings or maintenance.

I pay for a Golf even if it's 450 PM I'd pay another 200 pm in diesel !

steelboots

One thing I think is missed when potential customers are comparing EVs to Diesel cars is the maintenance.

Diesels cars are not suited for short journeys which a lot of people are using them for, as they should on a regular basis be reaching full temperature and reaching continuous speeds for the DPF to regenerate. I've had to fork out €2,700 for a full service, timing belt, new DPF & fluid and a Turbo on a 08 citroen, and if that wasn't bad enough the turbo only lasted 2 weeks before letting me down again (fixed under warranty granted). Previous car the turbo failed, and sucked up oil from the sump and blew a hold in the engine. €4,500 worth of damage

I know one owner of a Leaf and he has covered 60km in 3 years and has only had to replace wiper blades, pollen filters and tyres. He hasn't had to change the brake pads yet, because if you drive the Leaf carefully taking full advantage of the regenerative breaking then you rarely need to use the breaks in anger.

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

One thing I think is missed when potential customers are comparing EVs to Diesel cars is the maintenance.

Diesels cars are not suited for short journeys which a lot of people are using them for, as they should on a regular basis be reaching full temperature and reaching continuous speeds for the DPF to regenerate. I've had to fork out €2,700 for a full service, timing belt, new DPF & fluid and a Turbo on a 08 citroen, and if that wasn't bad enough the turbo only lasted 2 weeks before letting me down again (fixed under warranty granted). Previous car the turbo failed, and sucked up oil from the sump and blew a hold in the engine. €4,500 worth of damage

I know one owner of a Leaf and he has covered 60km in 3 years and has only had to replace wiper blades, pollen filters and tyres. He hasn't had to change the brake pads yet, because if you drive the Leaf carefully taking full advantage of the regenerative breaking then you rarely need to use the breaks in anger.

It's great having the regen and having no brake dust on the wheels in Summer after 25,500 Kms the disks on my leaf are as new.

If you drive in B mode you can get variable regen on the throttle by lifting off a bit and pressing a bit a lot of people are not aware of this and regen to them is either on or off and it can make driving quiet jerky, but using the throttle to control the regen make for much more comfortable driving.

The only real maintenance to the Leaf is changing pollen filters and brake fluid changes, don't know when the brake fluid has to be done. Maybe the normal 2 years ? It's mad seeing after 25 K kms how clean it is under the bonnet or after a long drive no heat on anything this time of year apart from the heat pump pipes. Coolant will have to be done eventually , probably 160,000 kms ? Coolant won't be a diy job as with the prius it needed special pumps to force any air out of the system, coolant flows through a lot more than in an ice car.

No harm having it inspected and seeing how the battery is performing and it's good to have a record of the mileage while every time you turn on the Leaf the mileage reading goes straight back to Nissan Motor Co in Japan and battery data, charging data etc the average user won't have access to this and I don;t know if Nissan Ireland can verify the mileage that is uploaded.

Lantus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just buy Diesel, Why would anyone want electric ? it's too cheap to run. Honestly, so cheap you won't believe it.

Diesel is great, all the lag, rattle noise and pollution. And manual gears, Ahhhh lovely driving experience.

Buy a diesel Golf and save a fortune by driving on diesel ! electricity is way too expensive, especially that night rate leccy.

300 Euro's for 20,000 Kms is way more expensive than diesel !

I pay 450 pm for 25 K kms and all that expensive electricity means by not having to pay for ultra cheap petrol or diesel it pays nearly half the repayments, not including tax savings or maintenance.

I pay for a Golf even if it's 450 PM I'd pay another 200 pm in diesel !

Well the PCP on the leaf was going to be 450-500 before tax and power. I can buy a new petrol, tax it and buy petrol for just over 400 a month based on 60 miles a day commute. Its even cheaper than a diesel because the extra 3-4k for the diesel model can't justify the savings unless your travelling nearer 100+ miles a day.

You have to look at the whole picture and always work on total costs over three years at least.

The leaf is excellent and if you put it up against more expensive cars then it will perform financially. But there are a number of good sized cheaper alternatives and with zero interest that can beat it on numbers.

Lantus

Lantus wrote: »

Well the PCP on the leaf was going to be 450-500 before tax and power. I can buy a new petrol, tax it and buy petrol for just over 400 a month based on 60 miles a day commute. Its even cheaper than a diesel because the extra 3-4k for the diesel model can't justify the savings unless your travelling nearer 100+ miles a day.

You have to look at the whole picture and always work on total costs over three years at least.

The leaf is excellent and if you put it up against more expensive cars then it will perform financially. But there are a number of good sized cheaper alternatives and with zero interest that can beat it on numbers.

Sure, I could buy an I 10 for maybe 16, 17 K or buy a basic Golf TDI for 25K .

My 450 PM includes interest and depreciation of which almost half is paid for in fuel savings and motor tax compared to the Prius or Diesel.

The Golf will still cost me much more PM.

That is is cost me 450 Pm with 5K down and 25,000 Kms per year.

fm

what about the depreciation cost on a leaf,you have to look at the cost of a car over a few years at least to see what you really save not what you pay or not at a pump every week or the amount you pay a bank monthly.

Say over three years on pcp

deposit
36 payments including interest
tax
cost of fuel
standard service
final payment
insurance

Then subtract what you sell the car for-this can make a huge difference to what the car costs over 3 years

fm

fm wrote: »

what about the depreciation cost on a leaf,you have to look at the cost of a car over a few years at least to see what you really save not what you pay or not at a pump every week or the amount you pay a bank monthly.

Say over three years on pcp

deposit
36 payments including interest
tax
cost of fuel
standard service
final payment
insurance

Then subtract what you sell the car for-this can make a huge difference to what the car costs over 3 years

The depreciation + interest cost is already calculated in the monthly payments with PCP so the diesel is costing me a lot more.

What the car is truly worth at the end remains to be seen and this is the case with any car, if the batteries hold up as good as the MK 1.5 are showing now then these cars will make truly cracking 2nd hand cars that are mega cheap to run with very little maintenance, no gearbox, no engine, belts, chains, etc. And currently showing very high reliability after 100,000 miles or 162,000 Kms.

BoatMad

steelboots wrote: »

One thing I think is missed when potential customers are comparing EVs to Diesel cars is the maintenance.

Diesels cars are not suited for short journeys which a lot of people are using them for, as they should on a regular basis be reaching full temperature and reaching continuous speeds for the DPF to regenerate. I've had to fork out €2,700 for a full service, timing belt, new DPF & fluid and a Turbo on a 08 citroen, and if that wasn't bad enough the turbo only lasted 2 weeks before letting me down again (fixed under warranty granted). Previous car the turbo failed, and sucked up oil from the sump and blew a hold in the engine. €4,500 worth of damage

I know one owner of a Leaf and he has covered 60km in 3 years and has only had to replace wiper blades, pollen filters and tyres. He hasn't had to change the brake pads yet, because if you drive the Leaf carefully taking full advantage of the regenerative breaking then you rarely need to use the breaks in anger.

Firstly 60 , 000 km is nothing , I'm not sure why you perceive it's a big number. Ive owned loads of cars , diesel and petrol that consumed nothing other then normal service items all the way to 150 ,000 km and more.

60 k is isn't a big number over 200 K is a big number

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The depreciation + interest cost is already calculated in the monthly payments with PCP so the diesel is costing me a lot more.

What the car is truly worth at the end remains to be seen and this is the case with any car, if the batteries hold up as good as the MK 1.5 are showing now then these cars will make truly cracking 2nd hand cars that are mega cheap to run with very little maintenance, no gearbox, no engine, belts, chains, etc. And currently showing very high reliability after 100,000 miles or 162,000 Kms.

Do we even have 160k plus leafs , with say 6+'years old, to draw conclusions from. ???

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Do we even have 160k plus leafs , with say 6+'years old, to draw conclusions from. ???

No we don't this is why I am saying better to be cautious if you intend to keep it, if not who cares ?