Nissan XE vs SV and PCP or not PCP

steelboots

I'm considering buying a Nissan Leaf, and crunching the numbers the base model (XE) is almost cost neutral vs running my 1999 2.2 diesel. However if I were to go for the mid range (SV) its costing an extra 2.5K, is it really worth the extra investment. Alloy wheels and color coding is all fine, but whats the addition driving mode (B) and how more efficient is the heat pump ?

Are there any extras I should be considering like the 6kw charger ?
Is there a new model coming out in 2016 ?

The offer I'm getting from the garage is the SV on PCP for €386/mth with a payment at the end of €8,500 if I wanted to keep the car. No cash deposit up front as the scrappage deal of €4,000

My daily commute is 84km round trip (and work might install a charging point) and rarely have to do long journeys, either was this would vbe a second car in the household.

Thanks.

Padraig Mor

steelboots wrote: »

I'm considering buying a Nissan Leaf, and crunching the numbers the base model (XE) is almost cost neutral vs running my 1999 2.2 diesel. However if I were to go for the mid range (SV) its costing an extra 2.5K, is it really worth the extra investment. Alloy wheels and color coding is all fine, but whats the addition driving mode (B) and how more efficient is the heat pump ?

Are there any extras I should be considering like the 6kw charger ?
Is there a new model coming out in 2016 ? .

I would go with SV plus cold pack (€300), or SVE. Supposedly the new heat pump is a lot more efficient. I drive in B mode all the time - but it's not 'necessary'; it applies 'engine braking' when you lift off the accelerator, giving some extra charge to the battery. Can be used instead of brakes to moderately slow the car.

Mad Lad will be along shortly to tell you about the 6kW charger! If you use the public infrastructure more than occasionally, it's probably a good investment.

2016 (deliveries from Dec I believe) is a very slightly upgraded model, with the further option of a 25% larger capacity battery for €3k. Were you quoted for a car in stock? If not, I'd guess it was for the newer model.

The offer I'm getting from the garage is the SV on PCP for €386/mth with a payment at the end of €8,500 if I wanted to keep the car. No cash deposit up front as the scrappage deal of €4,000

The €386 seems cheap, and the GFV is quite a bit lower than mine (€10kish - SV, bought in July). Is the APR still 7.9%? Is that including metallic paint?

steelboots

Thanks Padraig_Mor,

Don't know if that was an in stock price TBH. The PCP option was with an annual allowance of 24,000km/yr. Didn't ask regarding APR, and not sure about metallic paint.

If I'm doing a log journey (about 5 / year) and I don't have the 6.6K how long will it take to charge e.g. 0-80% ?

I'm heading on holidays next week but will get a loan of one for a few days to see how it goes. Don't want to add too many extras etc.. or the figures don't stack up.

cros13

steelboots wrote: »

I'm considering buying a Nissan Leaf, and crunching the numbers the base model (XE) is almost cost neutral vs running my 1999 2.2 diesel. However if I were to go for the mid range (SV) its costing an extra 2.5K, is it really worth the extra investment. Alloy wheels and color coding is all fine, but whats the addition driving mode (B) and how more efficient is the heat pump ?

SV is worth every penny. SVE is debatable (disclosure: one of my EVs is a 141 SVE Leaf). €300 for the Cold pack is a steal, the heated seats are 10 times more efficient than the cabin heater and reduces the need for heating.

The Heat Pump is substantially more efficient than the 6kW resistance heater. On average it uses 3kW at the start and a few hundred watts to maintain temperature. B mode is helpful, gives slightly heavier regen braking, especially makes driving up the mountains more relaxing.

The real deal breakers for the XE are the lack of sat nav the lack of remote access on your mobile or online. That means no way to monitor your charging remotely and no way to locate nearby chargers or see your range on a map.
The lack of both of these render the XE unusable in my opinion, especially for long trips.

steelboots wrote: »

Are there any extras I should be considering like the 6kw charger ?

Whether the 6kW is useful depends on your usage. It just means you are able to charge 0-100% at home/work/on the street in 4 hours instead of 8.
My Leaf SVE has a 3.3kW charger and my i3 has a 7.4kW charger. In reality your car will be at work or home for 8 hours a day anyway in most cases. I could count the number of times the faster charge mattered to me on one hand.
The free charge point from ESB is 3.6kW so at most the 6.6kW charger will give you 10% faster charging from it (though you can just install your own 7.2kW, they're only about €400-500).
It has no impact on rapid charging speed which is what you'll use mostly on long journeys. A 50kW rapid charger will bring you from 0-80% in 20 minutes, regardless of battery or charger in the car.

steelboots wrote: »

Is there a new model coming out in 2016 ?

Yes, starting production in December with first delivery in January. It's a substantial improvement in equipment for the same price. There is also a €3k option for a higher capacity (25%) battery which has a longer warranty (8 years / 160,000km).

BoatMad

Im getting the SV with the cold pack 30 kw battery and 6K6 charger , its adds a pricey bit on top

I think the SV is a sweet spot for the options the cold pack is a steal

the 2016 XE is getting an LCD screen,( The SV SVE, are getting a larger lcd screen) so is satnav and ev connect standard on 2016 XE?

Lantus

Great to hear people with similar thoughts. I'm working on getting a 2016 leaf. The 4k scrappage makes it a good deal plus some extra deposit brings the monthly fee down on PCP. Also would be getting the cold pack as Mrs lantus is cold to the touch and requires special heating arrangements. Interesting feedback on 6kw charger. Thought I'd really need this but doesn't sound like I will.

Is 8 hours a full charge from zero? If so in reality most charges would take 4-6 hours if you use 50-75% of the battery per day? Easily done from home.

Is the home charging station included for free still?

BoatMad

Lantus wrote: »

Great to hear people with similar thoughts. I'm working on getting a 2016 leaf. The 4k scrappage makes it a good deal plus some extra deposit brings the monthly fee down on PCP. Also would be getting the cold pack as Mrs lantus is cold to the touch and requires special heating arrangements. Interesting feedback on 6kw charger. Thought I'd really need this but doesn't sound like I will.

Is 8 hours a full charge from zero? If so in reality most charges would take 4-6 hours if you use 50-75% of the battery per day? Easily done from home.

Is the home charging station included for free still?

home EVSE is still free

Im installing my own as I want to utilise the 6k6 charge, we have a 140 Km daily commute and changing at work is providing awkward ( no defined car park space)

with the 30 kw, and 6k6 charger and night rate the battery should recharge in about 5.5 hours at 32 amps ( my own EVSE) that means it can easily be done within the night rate period. its takes nearly 10 hours at the 16 A EVSE ( 3K charger) and that puts part of it outside the night tariff .

we need the full range if the work charge option does not materialise

Benny_Cake

You really need to think about the 6.6 charger. I went for it myself, and tbh I only noticed it's usefulness once in Clonmel where there are several standard chargers but no rapid. It was handy but not 900 euro worth of handiness.. maybe it'll come in handy in the future. Much depends on how far you'll be driving and where to.

The cold pack is well worth it as others have said.

8 hours is a full charge, not something you'll need to do too often. I set my car to start charging at 1am and it generally stops charging at 80% sometime after 4am.

BoatMad

I know this isn't the thread for it


but why does everyone stop at 80%, I know this was an issue with the 2011 batteries , especially in hot climates like USA, but here , given the charge profile , I see no reason to stop at 80, even fast charging and the newer tech batteries aren't as heat sensitive, which was the issue to begin with

anyway i suspect 100% isn't full SOC anyway , it rarely is on lithiums

Benny_Cake

I don't give it a lot of thought really. I charge to 80% as it covers my daily commute with plenty to spare. On a weekend or if I'm doing a longer trip I charge to 100%.

If someone needs the 100%, they should just charge to 100% and not worry about it.

steelboots

Thanks everyone for the very useful info.

From reading the Nissan web site the scrappage deal is upto end of the year. Does that mean I can't get a 161 (new model) on the scrappage or will the scrappage be continued ? or perhaps a good deal is to be got on the current model

BoatMad

steelboots wrote: »

Thanks everyone for the very useful info.

From reading the Nissan web site the scrappage deal is upto end of the year. Does that mean I can't get a 161 (new model) on the scrappage or will the scrappage be continued ? or perhaps a good deal is to be got on the current model

You get the scrappage if you order in 2015

But I was told it's continuing into the new year anyway

cros13

steelboots wrote: »

From reading the Nissan web site the scrappage deal is upto end of the year. Does that mean I can't get a 161 (new model) on the scrappage or will the scrappage be continued ? or perhaps a good deal is to be got on the current model

You can order the 2016 model now with the scrappage for delivery in January. The pricing agreed at order time stands.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I don't give it a lot of thought really. I charge to 80% as it covers my daily commute with plenty to spare. On a weekend or if I'm doing a longer trip I charge to 100%.

You should occasionally charge to 100% to let the BMS figure out the state of play. I'd say at least once in every 10 cycles.

BoatMad wrote: »

but why does everyone stop at 80%, I know this was an issue with the 2011 batteries , especially in hot climates like USA, but here , given the charge profile , I see no reason to stop at 80, even fast charging and the newer tech batteries aren't as heat sensitive, which was the issue to begin with

anyway i suspect 100% isn't full SOC anyway , it rarely is on lithiums

Nissan put a lot of things on the Leaf to make idiots happy. Like the 5 watt solar panel for the 12v system they will sell you for €300.

Highest SoC I've seen reported on Leafspy was 98.1%. But we have a lot of unknowns in the data Leafspy displays.

Lantus wrote: »

Is 8 hours a full charge from zero? If so in reality most charges would take 4-6 hours if you use 50-75% of the battery per day? Easily done from home.

Yup... people are rarely charging from 0. Which makes the 0-100% numbers a worst case.

BoatMad wrote: »

the 2016 XE is getting an LCD screen,( The SV SVE, are getting a larger lcd screen) so is satnav and ev connect standard on 2016 XE?

The XE is keeping the old system from the 2011-2015 SV and SVE . The new system is a massive improvement. Plus you get DAB and a bunch of new features like app integration.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

You can order the 2016 model now with the scrappage for delivery in January. The pricing agreed at order time stands.



You should occasionally charge to 100% to let the BMS figure out the state of play. I'd say at least once in every 10 cycles.



Nissan put a lot of things on the Leaf to make idiots happy. Like the 5 watt solar panel for the 12v system they will sell you for €300.

Highest SoC I've seen reported on Leafspy was 98.1%. But we have a lot of unknowns in the data Leafspy displays.



Yup... people are rarely charging from 0. Which makes the 0-100% numbers a worst case.



The XE is keeping the old system from the 2011-2015 SV and SVE . The new system is a massive improvement. Plus you get DAB and a bunch of new features like app integration.

Dab , in Ireland. I doubt it. There's no stations to listen to.

What's in it that it's a " massive improvement " ? , the reviews tend to gloss over it

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

Dab , in Ireland. I doubt it. There's no stations to listen to.

I listen to DAB in Ireland. No Ads... important feature for me.

BoatMad wrote: »

What's in it that it's a " massive improvement " ? , the reviews tend to gloss over it

7" screen vs current 5", better resolution/contrast/readability due to better panel and backlight. More precise touchscreen though still resistive (pinch to zoom now works). The interface has been overhauled and is easier to use without taking your eyes off the road for long. Lot of usability improvements like clearer charger status displayed on the map (and auto updating of charger locations every time you turn on the car). Better voice recognition as well and less annoying legal warnings... and apps through your attached phone.

BoatMad

As for dabs, I thought the only remaining transmitter is the south east experimental one. The rte one is gone isn't it. ?

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

As for dabs, I thought the only remaining transmitter is the south east experimental one. The rte one is gone isn't it. ?

Nope, RTE multiplex still going. So is a commercial DAB multiplex.

This coverage map is still valid: http://www.digitalradio.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DAB_Dec09_hiRes.gif

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Nope, RTE multiplex still going. So is a commercial DAB multiplex.

This coverage map is still valid: http://www.digitalradio.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DAB_Dec09_hiRes.gif

thanks

stesaurus

cros13 wrote: »

Nope, RTE multiplex still going. So is a commercial DAB multiplex.

This coverage map is still valid: http://www.digitalradio.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DAB_Dec09_hiRes.gif

I never pick up a signal. Even up in Dublin

I have talked a lot about the value of the 6.6 kw charger and still people don't get it. Mostly the people recommending not to spend the 900 Extra on the 6.6 Kw charger are those who don't have it but I can tell you now I would not have an EV without 6.6 kw charging from AC minimum.

I do not often venture past work to keep miles off for the PCP, I'm driving 134 Kms daily when on shift so only a small portion of my mileage (22,300 Kms) is for pleasure and so for the really long trips I take the diesel.

I like convenience and I don't think the 900 extra when spending so much on a car is a lot, that's what 25 PM extra ?

Charging an EV as quickly as possible is probably one of the most convenient things possible about Ev ownership. And with the 6.6 Kw I can get roughly 25-90% in 2 Hrs V 4 hrs with the 3.3 Kw standard charger.

It means that I can drive around 220 Kms with a 2 hr charge from a standard street charge point V 4 hrs with the 3.3 kw so I go to Dublin for a day out or shopping, back to the car and it's charged or almost charged without having to get find to a fast charger and wait 30-40 mins and if someone is charging before me this could turn into an hours wait now someone please tell me the 900 extra for the 6.6 Kw charger is not worth the money ?

Leaf dealers are importing the 3.3 Kw mostly to keep the list price down and telling potential leaf owners that come to boards.ie and know about the 6.6 Kw that they don't need it that it's a waste of money and they only tell them this so they won't walk away and look for another dealer that has got it, they want you to buy what's in stock there and then.

Even Barlo in Kilkenny continue to wrongly advise people against the 6.6 Kw and I had words with Paul (again) over it while I was at the fast charger last week, those giving this advice are not people who live with an Ev !!!

Cross said charge times ae 20 mins this is not true, the leaf will charge as quoted in the manual from about 18%-80% in 30 mins at a battery temp of 20 degrees C lower temps mean longer on the charger.

However, 18% -50-60% is pretty fast and usually you will not need more unless doing a long motorway run.

Look at the ESb charge point map and use the filters at the top of the page, select AC points (shown as green) and then select the DC fast chargers (ChaDeMo for Leaf shown as Blue) look at the amount of green , so being able to charge at half the time from all these green points is worth it if you ask me.

I'm going to copy this for future 6.6 kw promoting so I can just copy and paste in future !

cros13

s.welstead wrote: »

I never pick up a signal. Even up in Dublin

Your radio may be broken.

I can pick up a solid signal in my car down as far mountrath. Occasionally pick it up in Templemore from the Dublin transmitters.

Deleted User wrote: »

that's what 25 PM extra ?

Deleted User wrote: »

Cross said charge times ae 20 mins this is not true, the leaf will charge as quoted in the manual from about 18%-80% in 30 mins at a battery temp of 20 degrees C lower temps mean longer on the charger.

I did a trip to Galway coast in my Leaf last year and timed the rapid charges. 15 degree ambient.

Stop 1: Indicated - 6% | SoC - 10% | time to 80% indicated - 16 minutes 37 seconds.
Stop 2: Indicated - 7% | SoC - 12% | time to 80% indicated - 17 minutes 01 seconds.
Stop 3: Indicated - 13% | SoC - 20% | time to 80% indicated - 15 minutes 22 seconds.
Stop 4: Indicated - 6% | SoC - 11% | time to 80% indicated - 18 minutes 58 seconds.

The only time I've seen a charge to 80% take 30 minutes was in weather below 5C

BoatMad

low temperatures i.e. above about 5% but less the 15% have no effect on Li charge rates, the graph isn't linear. in fact it can improve charge rates as the heating generated near the end of the charge taper phase can be carried away by the lower ambient temperature

where the electrolyte is in danger of freezing and even at slighter higher temperature, the mobility of Li ions is degraded only slightly, at electrolyte freezing then a careful low C " pre-qualifying charge" has to be applied , extending charge times significantly ( or the battery externally warmed)

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

I did a trip to Galway coast in my Leaf last year and timed the rapid charges. 15 degree ambient.

Stop 1: Indicated - 6% | SoC - 10% | time to 80% indicated - 16 minutes 37 seconds.
Stop 2: Indicated - 7% | SoC - 12% | time to 80% indicated - 17 minutes 01 seconds.
Stop 3: Indicated - 13% | SoC - 20% | time to 80% indicated - 15 minutes 22 seconds.
Stop 4: Indicated - 6% | SoC - 11% | time to 80% indicated - 18 minutes 58 seconds.

The only time I've seen a charge to 80% take 30 minutes was in weather below 5C

That's what I said "cold weather"

I've seen the leaf take 40 mins to get from 25% to 80% when the battery temp was 8 degrees C. This matches pretty much what Nissan have stated in the Manual.

On a long trip driving and fast charging will warm it up.

When the battery is at 8 deg C the leaf will only pull about 30 Kw at the start of the charge compared to about 45 Kw, on a new battery of course.

Those with older leafs with the older battery that has seen some degradation will see their charge times increase regardless of temps anyway.

As the battery ages fast charging times increase and also regen strength decreases and eventually acceleration.

One member of the Irish Ev Association reported that he can't get more than 35 Kw from the fast charger (reported via the fast charger display, charge to the battery will be less) in his 2012 Leaf and charging in cold will be even less.

Even 6.6 Kw charging warms up the battery.

A cold battery will also store less energy.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

That's what I said "cold weather"

I've seen the leaf take 40 mins to get from 25% to 80% when the battery temp was 8 degrees C. This matches pretty much what Nissan have stated in the Manual.

On a long trip driving and fast charging will warm it up.

When the battery is at 8 deg C the leaf will only pull about 30 Kw at the start of the charge compared to about 45 Kw, on a new battery of course.

Those with older leafs with the older battery that has seen some degradation will see their charge times increase regardless of temps anyway.

As the battery ages fast charging times increase and also regen strength decreases and eventually acceleration.

One member of the Irish Ev Association reported that he can't get more than 35 Kw from the fast charger (reported via the fast charger display, charge to the battery will be less) in his 2012 Leaf and charging in cold will be even less.

Even 6.6 Kw charging warms up the battery.

A cold battery will also store less energy.

ive debunked of what you say here elsewhere, I wont go over this but to state again ( and again)

The rate pulled from the charger during constant current phase is a function iof the charge control software of the car and not the lithium battery itself

Such charge control software typically takes into account battery temperature, ambient temperature, charger max power, charging strategy and AGE. it then commands the charger to deliver the appropriate charging strategy

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

ive debunked of what you say here elsewhere, I wont go over this but to state again ( and again)

The rate pulled from the charger during constant current phase is a function iof the charge control software of the car and not the lithium battery itself

Such charge control software typically takes into account battery temperature, ambient temperature, charger max power, charging strategy and AGE. it then commands the charger to deliver the appropriate charging strategy

I'll ask people to read this part of this thread here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057506142&page=6

And here in this post you really let yourself down,

And most of the time I took the time to give you the proof from the real experts and you conveniently deleted this post you created but I caught it in time,

You seem to set out to undermine every single post I take the time to write which is tiring.

This is the post that proves you are seriously not the battery expert you claim to be,

So if internal resistance increases charge times, and if cold increases internal resistance what do you think will happen when the battery is cold and you try fast charge ?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll ask people to read this part of this thread here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057506142&page=6

And here in this post you really let yourself down,

And most of the time I took the time to give you the proof from the real experts and you conveniently deleted this post you created but I caught it in time,

You seem to set out to undermine every single post I take the time to write which is tiring.

This is the post that proves you are seriously not the battery expert you claim to be,

So if internal resistance increases charge times, and if cold increases internal resistance what do you think will happen when the battery is cold and you try fast charge ?

mad_lad I know you mean well, and you present documents, which quite franky you dont clearly understand ( not to mention its some post grad student doing a project !, hardly an " expert")


You refused to answer my questions in the thread you referenced

You persist in posting your faulty conclusions and persist in referencing technical documentation that while correct ( in general ) you are applying incorrectly in the circumstance

I wish you'd stop so called "explaining " charging based on faulty understanding of Li chemistry. You have repeatedly refused to tell me what your professional expertise in this area, I have disclosed mine

You seem to set out to undermine every single post I take the time to write which is tiring.

NO, I have clearly challenged your confused understanding on Li battery charging and how the chemistry works, In other areas I have in fact agreed with you


if you like we can step through a detailed Q& A on Li charging and expose what you or I know or dont know, if you like , but you refuse to actually debate this thing , constantly restating false or more correctly, misunderstood, technical information ( like internal resistance , which in practice is an extremely complex non linear term)

Again , you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how constant current/constant voltage charging works. other then that most of what you say on the leaf is understandable

Boat_Mad I can find as much fact and proof and post it here and you can post whatever you want without backing it up just because you claim to be an expert.

SO you say I'm correct then you say I'm not ? lol

I'm just really getting tired of posting here now. Time for a change after 8 years and 6,400 posts. It's just not worth the time and effort as it once was and it't certainly not a rewarding way to spend my time.

I've done my bit to help kick start an EV revolution in Ireland.

steelboots

Mad_lad & BoatMad,

I appreciate all the info you provided. From my point of view I'm doing a round trip to work of 54miles/day so the Leaf is more than capable of that. I just want to make sure I get what I need in terms of spec & options with out over spending on unnecessary stuff.

I don't think its worth arguing over battery charging times/temps/life etc...... life's to short (and I'm not talking battery life)

But I would appreciate if some one could explain all the different charging options and an estimated charging time as this is the last piece of the jigsaw I don't understand.

I crunched the numbers and based on the maths the Leaf on PCP is costing €67 more per month to run than a Merc 1999 C220 Diesel allowing for €500/year parts over and above servicing. I think its time to take one out on trial and put it through its paces.

Thanks for your continued info.

BoatMad

to start your re-education , let me point you to some facts ( though in general I dont like battery university )




There is a notion that internal resistance is related to capacity, and this is false. The resistance of modern lead acid and lithium-ion batteries stays flat through most of the service life. Advancements in electrolyte additives are reducing internal corrosion issues that were in part responsible for the rise in resistance. Figure 1 shows capacity fade with cycling in relation to the internal resistance of Li-ion cells.http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_internal_resistance

This on the face of it contradicts the study you posted, yet this data is from Cadex a very respected producer of advanced battery analysis tools


care to explain that ?

BoatMad

But I would appreciate if some one could explain all the different charging options and an estimated charging time as this is the last piece of the jigsaw I don't understand.

heers a good summary




The " Mode" summary is a little confusing

Mode 1 ( not mentioned) is a direct single phase with no charge control , not used on the leaf
Mode2 is in essence low power , but controlled via a built in EVSE in the cable , plugged into a normal power point
Mode 3, is using an external eves in the cargo point , still AC, and can be high powered AC or three phase AC ( which the leaf dose not use)
confusing these AC charge points are sometimes known as "Rapid chargers "
Mode 4, ( mode not mentioned0) is high powered DC Fast chargers

so in a hierarchy of charging you have

Low power AC ( using an EVSE equipped cable with a standard AC plug), known as a granny cable - charges at 10 A for the leaf
Medium Power AC ( again using a cable based EVSE and suitable connector ( commando or IEC60905 plugs , the blue plugs) these can do upto 32 A
High power AC, using a Type 2 Menneskes connector ( the ESB small chargers ) , these can go upto 22Kw, but the leaf only can use 3.3 kw or 6.6 Kw depending on whats fitted into the car - aslso know as rapid charging
Very high power ( 50 Kw +) DC charging known as Mode4, with a custom interface cable to the car, in the leafs case this si the CHaDeMo system ( or more correctly its a charge protocol )

Charging options are as follows.

Standard charger comes with the leaf is 3.3 Kw taking roughly 7 hrs from 10%-100% .

You can upgrade it for 900 Euro's to 6.6 kw and charging times take half the time, however to charge fully to 100% there would be about 1.5 hrs in the difference the real difference is in the 0-90% range.

You can charge from a public charge point that is a non fast charger from 25-90% in 2 hrs compared to 4 hrs with the 3.3 Kw.

You can then fast charge from the DC charge points irrespective of having 3.3 or 6.6 kw charging.