What is the most you would pay for a handbag

bscm

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Did you miss the bit where it said the Chinese-made stuff is often sold at the same price as the Italian-made stuff?

Because in some cases you are paying for decades of unique techniques and styles, and possibly patents or legally protected aspects of their goods production.

There's a reason knockoffs can easily be spotted, obviously a very small number are cleverly made, but it's hard to not value and see that some brands have used the same stencils, stitching styles, and even suppliers for up to 60 years* (sometimes longer).

*as my educational background is in science, I feel obliged to justify that figure with the Chanel 2.55 bag, original release date February 1955. Although Chanel are mainly made in workshops in Europe and the US, verifiable by their press and public days into the craftsmanship of their leather goods.

meeeeh

LeeLooLee wrote: »

You're changing the subject now but to answer your question about why they would charge less, well because production is much cheaper in China, obviously, so they could pass that onto the customer, but they don't. $450 was an example of one type of shoe they make in both China and Italy.

But why would they? If anything they should pay Chinese more. Price of goods is usually determined by what people are prepared to pay and not by how much profit one should make.

LeeLooLee

meeeeh wrote: »

But why would they? If anything they should pay Chinese more. Price of goods is usually determined by what people are prepared to pay and not by how much profit one should make.

This discussion started by someone saying they pay a lot for bags because they are handmade in Europe. I stated that this isn't true and after I was challenged about that, I posted some evidence. I'm sure a lot of the people paying thousands for 'designer' bags thinking they are handmade in Europe, with European labour costs and wages would not be too pleased to discover the truth. You started off by saying you didn't even believe that this happened.

ceadaoin.

LeeLooLee wrote: »

This discussion started by someone saying they pay a lot for bags because they are handmade in Europe. I stated that this isn't true and after I was challenged about that, I posted some evidence. I'm sure a lot of the people paying thousands for 'designer' bags thinking they are handmade in Europe, with European labour costs and wages would not be too pleased to discover the truth. You started off by saying you didn't even believe that this happened.

But you haven't named the brands you say are at least partly made in China. The article you linked to names prada, which is already open about manufacturing in China, and Burberry which I don't think anyone ever thought was handmade in European workshops.

The Gucci website states that 100% of its leather goods, shoes and ready to wear is produced in Florence. That doesn't mean that other products aren't produced elsewhere but we are discussing handbags and most of those would be included in leather goods.

I haven't seen any evidence that bags from Chanel, Dior or Hermes are made anywhere other than it is claimed.

LeeLooLee

ceadaoin. wrote: »

But you haven't named the brands you say are at least partly made in China. The article you linked to names prada, which is already open about manufacturing in China, and Burberry which I don't think anyone ever thought was handmade in European workshops.

The Gucci website states that 100% of its leather goods, shoes and ready to wear is produced in Florence. That doesn't mean that other products aren't produced elsewhere but we are discussing handbags and most of those would be included in leather goods.

I haven't seen any evidence that bags from Chanel, Dior or Hermes are made anywhere other than it is claimed.

That NY Times article alleged that Gucci manufactures in China. You're saying now that Prada are open about their factories in China, but you previously said that high end designers do not use Chinese manufacturing and Prada are most definitely considered high end.

And, by the way, "100% of its leather goods, shoes and ready to wear is produced in Florence" is not the same as "leather goods, shoes and ready to wear is 100% produced in Florence".

As I have stated multiple times now, it's totally legal to claim that your products are made in Europe when only the finishing touches are put on in Europe, after the product is shipped from China. The brands who admit to using Chinese factories are ones who have ALL the manufacturing done there and put 'Made in China' labels on the goods. The ones who prefer to hide that they have manufacturing done in Asia can, totally legally, claim 'Made in Italy/France Spain'.

ceadaoin.

LeeLooLee wrote: »

That NY Times article alleged that Gucci manufactures in China. You're saying now that Prada are open about their factories in China, but you previously said that high end designers do not use Chinese manufacturing and Prada are most definitely considered high end.

Well honestly, I didn't have prada in mind when I said that. Personally, I don't like their designs and from reading the purse forum, I know that they have quality issues on a lot of their new bags. They also operate differently from many other high end design houses in that they have cheaper lines and allow their products to be sold at outlets. So for me, I guess when I think of top tier designers, I don't think prada. But yes, you are right, they are a high end designer that manufacture in China.

meeeeh

You do know that Prada group own Prada, Prada Sport (or something like that) and Miu Miu and at least one more of own lines? Some are cheaper and some are more prestigious. They also took over some of others. All you proved is that 20% of manufacturing is done in China and some more elsewhere in Asia. But you can't even tell for what products or lines. Ok we know about one sandal and btw the point about price was that it was most likelyn one of the cheaper lines.

You make all this claims that I am sure are true, but they are true only because they are very unspecified. What luxury watches are made in Asia, Armani costing 500 Euro, Breitling costing five thousand or ten thousand euro Rolex? Btw speaking of watches, one of my cousins is licensed for servicing and repairing high end watches. He trained in and visited factories like Breitling , Rolex or Patek (in Switzerland not China) and he always maintains that there is huge difference in quality. I know he got licence for Rolex later than for some others and said he was amazed how much better their quality is in comparison to some other luxury brands. Btw I know nothing about watches but I did manage to learn that isn't just marketing that sets the price points for different brands.

God I hate it when I have trouble sleeping.

LeeLooLee

meeeeh wrote: »

You do know that Prada group own Prada, Prada Sport (or something like that) and Miu Miu and at least one more of own lines? Some are cheaper and some are more prestigious. They also took over some of others. All you proved is that 20% of manufacturing is done in China and some more elsewhere in Asia. But you can't even tell for what products or lines. Ok we know about one sandal and btw the point about price was that it was most likelyn one of the cheaper lines.

You make all this claims that I am sure are true, but they are true only because they are very unspecified. What luxury watches are made in Asia, Armani costing 500 Euro, Breitling costing five thousand or ten thousand euro Rolex? Btw speaking of watches, one of my cousins is licensed for servicing and repairing high end watches. He trained in and visited factories like Breitling , Rolex or Patek (in Switzerland not China) and he always maintains that there is huge difference in quality. I know he got licence for Rolex later than for some others and said he was amazed how much better their quality is in comparison to some other luxury brands. Btw I know nothing about watches but I did manage to learn that isn't just marketing that sets the price points for different brands.

God I hate it when I have trouble sleeping.

Yes, I do know that. What you're not getting here is that the Prada thing is the tip of the iceberg. I would say the vast majority of high end brands have at least part of their manufacturing done in Asia. In addition to that, a lot of the manufacturing in Europe is done by Chinese immigrants for very, very low pay.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/20/world/fg-madeinitaly20

I can't really be specific because of confidentiality issues but yes, watches costing tens of thousands of euros are mostly made in Asia (not specifically China) and then finished in Switzerland. Of course the Swiss don't want people to know this; the 'Swiss made' label is hugely important to their economy. Of course they have factories in Switzerland because they do do work there, but it doesn't mean a lot of manufacturing isn't outsourced.

meeeeh

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Yes, I do know that. What you're not getting here is that the Prada thing is the tip of the iceberg. I would say the vast majority of high end brands have at least part of their manufacturing done in Asia. In addition to that, a lot of the manufacturing in Europe is done by Chinese immigrants for very, very low pay.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/20/world/fg-madeinitaly20

Hate to break it to you but that is not just practice in fashion. Those work abuses are fairly common among Chinese in Europe and far from unique to fashion industry. Chances are your local Chinese has couple of employees like that.

I am not going to argue about watches, firstly because I don't care where they are made and secondly know way to little about the subject. But from everything you wrote we still have to solely rely on your word.

LeeLooLee wrote: »

This discussion started by someone saying they pay a lot for bags because they are handmade in Europe. I stated that this isn't true and after I was challenged about that, I posted some evidence. I'm sure a lot of the people paying thousands for 'designer' bags thinking they are handmade in Europe, with European labour costs and wages would not be too pleased to discover the truth. You started off by saying you didn't even believe that this happened.

I just spotted this. Nowhere I claimed I don't believe they are made in Asia, however I am not a great fan of 'trust me I know' statements or 'a lot do it'. One demands belief in statements of someone on internet that we know nothing about and a lot can mean 3 or almost everybody and everything.

lazygal

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Yes, I do know that. What you're not getting here is that the Prada thing is the tip of the iceberg. I would say the vast majority of high end brands have at least part of their manufacturing done in Asia. In addition to that, a lot of the manufacturing in Europe is done by Chinese immigrants for very, very low pay.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/20/world/fg-madeinitaly20

I can't really be specific because of confidentiality issues but yes, watches costing tens of thousands of euros are mostly made in Asia (not specifically China) and then finished in Switzerland. Of course the Swiss don't want people to know this; the 'Swiss made' label is hugely important to their economy. Of course they have factories in Switzerland because they do do work there, but it doesn't mean a lot of manufacturing isn't outsourced.

You're throwing out a lot of claims, then posting that because of confidentiality issues you can't back anything up with specifics. That's not really the way to win a debate. Are you working on behalf of high end brands with shady manufacturing processes or something?

JumpShivers

The most I've ever spent on a bag is maybe 14 euro.

I'm not a bag type of person, I hate carrying them around, I try and carry everything in my pockets. :pac:

missmatty

I adore bags, have loads but the max I have ever spent is about 170 Euro. I usually get some on holidays, there are some fab midrange European brands around such as Misako, Carpisa, Aunts & Uncles, Skunkfunk, Decadent Copenhagen and Le Tanneur to name check a few. The last one I got was 60e, some Italian brand I had never heard of but I love it and it looks really expensive. Bags are just crack cocaine to some people, including me. The first thing I do in a new city/country is check out their bag shops!

LeeLooLee

meeeeh wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but that is not just practice in fashion. Those work abuses are fairly common among Chinese in Europe and far from unique to fashion industry. Chances are your local Chinese has couple of employees like that.

I am not going to argue about watches, firstly because I don't care where they are made and secondly know way to little about the subject. But from everything you wrote we still have to solely rely on your word.

I just spotted this. Nowhere I claimed I don't believe they are made in Asia, however I am not a great fan of 'trust me I know' statements or 'a lot do it'. One demands belief in statements of someone on internet that we know nothing about and a lot can mean 3 or almost everybody and everything.

I know! You're just arguing for the sake of it now, going on about Chinese restaurants as if that has anything to do with this discussion. I'm simply saying it's not true that high-end bags are produced in Europe. People like ceadaoin have said that they buy such high end products at such high prices because they are European-made by skilled craftspeople in workshops. I'm simply saying that isn't true. I have linked to a reputable source stating that a lot of these products are made by underpaid Chinese workers in Europe. I have linked to multiple sources which explain that the 'Made in Italy' label means virtually nothing. If you know this and you still think it's worth paying thousands of euros for a bag, that's fine, but ceadaoin gave the reason for paying this price as paying for skilled European craftmanship. People go for the 'Made in Italy' label because it represents exclusivity. I simply stated that it was very naive to think that just because the label on your bag says 'Made in Italy' that none of it was made in China, or because the companies themselves say their products are made in Europe that this must be true.

lazygal

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I know! You're just arguing for the sake of it now, going on about Chinese restaurants as if that has anything to do with this discussion. I'm simply saying it's not true that high-end bags are produced in Europe. People like ceadaoin have said that they buy such high end products at such high prices because they are European-made by skilled craftspeople in workshops. I'm simply saying that isn't true. I have linked to a reputable source stating that a lot of these products are made by underpaid Chinese workers in Europe. I have linked to multiple sources which explain that the 'Made in Italy' label means virtually nothing. If you know this and you still think it's worth paying thousands of euros for a bag, that's fine, but ceadaoin gave the reason for paying this price as paying for skilled European craftmanship. People go for the 'Made in Italy' label because it represents exclusivity. I simply stated that it was very naive to think that just because the label on your bag says 'Made in Italy' that none of it was made in China, or because the companies themselves say their products are made in Europe that this must be true.

This is just a rant now. I think you've a chip on your shoulder about people buying high end brands and one way of taking the shine off their purchases is by making quite spurious claims and then saying for 'confidentiality' reasons you can't back this up with evidence other than links to media reports.
As I said I worked for a high end brand. It has workshops in France, Spain and Italy (shoes were made in Italy). We brought some clients to see where the leather goods were made, right down to the workshops than tan the leather from cows, goats and sheep. Nothing was made in China and the manufacturing process has been the same for over 150 years. In fact, the Chinese clients we had were really clued into where the products were made-they would specifically ask for only the leather goods made in France, and wouldn't buy the ones made in Spain, so we were all well versed in exactly how the products were made.

LeeLooLee

lazygal wrote: »

You're throwing out a lot of claims, then posting that because of confidentiality issues you can't back anything up with specifics. That's not really the way to win a debate. Are you working on behalf of high end brands with shady manufacturing processes or something?

I couldn't care less about winning any debate. I'm simply shocked that people actually believe that 'high-end' brands don't use cheap labour in the Far East and that 'Made in Italy' means the whole product was made there. That blatantly isn't true and I've linked to reputable sources. That isn't hearsay, it's fact. I can tell you that I've worked with clients with very close links to these brands and have quite a bit of insight into their manufacturing processes.

It's simply naive to believe what these companies tell you and it's naive to think you aren't mostly paying for a brand.

lazygal

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I couldn't care less about winning any debate. I'm simply shocked that people actually believe that 'high-end' brands don't use cheap labour in the Far East and that 'Made in Italy' means the whole product was made there. That blatantly isn't true and I've linked to reputable sources. That isn't hearsay, it's fact. I can tell you that I've worked with clients with very close links to these brands and have quite a bit of insight into their manufacturing processes.

It's simply naive to believe what these companies tell you and it's naive to think you aren't mostly paying for a brand.

The NY Times got caught out in a similar report on nail salons and Chinese immigrants, so 'reputable' isn't 100% true. I too have insight into the manufacturing process-I've see it first hand. Why do you work for brands that have shady manufacturing processes if you object to this kind of subterfuge anyway?

It's also naive to believe that someone has loads of information but can't share it, so you'll just have to trust them because of 'confidentiality'.

LeeLooLee

lazygal wrote: »

This is just a rant now. I think you've a chip on your shoulder about people buying high end brands and one way of taking the shine off their purchases is by making quite spurious claims and then saying for 'confidentiality' reasons you can't back this up with evidence other than links to media reports.
As I said I worked for a high end brand. It has workshops in France, Spain and Italy (shoes were made in Italy). We brought some clients to see where the leather goods were made, right down to the workshops than tan the leather from cows, goats and sheep. Nothing was made in China and the manufacturing process has been the same for over 150 years. In fact, the Chinese clients we had were really clued into where the products were made-they would specifically ask for only the leather goods made in France, and wouldn't buy the ones made in Spain, so we were all well versed in exactly how the products were made.

It's not a rant. I couldn't care less if people want to buy high-end brands. I'm saying that in most cases they are not getting what they think they're getting, end of. I didn't say ALL brands outsource to Asia, but in my experience, many do (and I would actually say 'most').

I personally wouldn't pay 3 grand for a bag because I know the quality won't reflect the price. I know that there is actually a lot more chance of a big brand being at least partly manufactured in Asia than a small local brand. I live in Spain and there are quite a few independent shops here selling beautiful leather handbags for 200-300 euros which are definitely made locally. I would consider those much better value than a big brand. It's not that I don't like designer handbags, I do. A lot of them are really nice. But I can see that a lot of people who buy them are misled. ceadaoin wasn't even aware yesterday that it's perfectly legal to slap a 'Made in Italy' label on a Chinese-made bag. That's my point.

LeeLooLee

lazygal wrote: »

The NY Times got caught out in a similar report on nail salons and Chinese immigrants, so 'reputable' isn't 100% true. I too have insight into the manufacturing process-I've see it first hand. Why do you work for brands that have shady manufacturing processes if you object to this kind of subterfuge anyway?

It's also naive to believe that someone has loads of information but can't share it, so you'll just have to trust them because of 'confidentiality'.

I didn't work directly for the brands.

lazygal

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I didn't work directly for the brands.

But you do work with them. Why, if you object to strongly to the manufaturing process?

LeeLooLee

lazygal wrote: »

But you do work with them. Why, if you object to strongly to the manufaturing process?

No, I don't. I don't work for fashion brands at all. I work with clients who have dealings with them.

And where did I say I objected to the manufacturing process? I simply said that people are naive to believe that it is as it seems.

ceadaoin.

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I couldn't care less about winning any debate. I'm simply shocked that people actually believe that 'high-end' brands don't use cheap labour in the Far East and that 'Made in Italy' means the whole product was made there. That blatantly isn't true and I've linked to reputable sources. That isn't hearsay, it's fact. I can tell you that I've worked with clients with very close links to these brands and have quite a bit of insight into their manufacturing processes.

It's simply naive to believe what these companies tell you and it's naive to think you aren't mostly paying for a brand.

Well if you aren't going to name the brands then what's the point. Your reputable source named prada which is hardly news as they are open about it.

ceadaoin.

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I know! You're just arguing for the sake of it now, going on about Chinese restaurants as if that has anything to do with this discussion. I'm simply saying it's not true that high-end bags are produced in Europe. People like ceadaoin have said that they buy such high end products at such high prices because they are European-made by skilled craftspeople in workshops.

I actually said that the price is high because you are paying for superior materials, workmanship and also you are paying for the brand. I didn't say the price was high simply because they are made in Europe.

It wouldn't bother me if say, Chanel made their bags in China, once the quality remained the same. If they are lying about where the bags are made then that would bother me. I'm just using Chanel as an example. I probably wouldn't actually buy another one anyway because the price increases are ridiculous!

LeeLooLee

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I actually said that the price is high because you are paying for superior materials, workmanship and also you are paying for the brand. I didn't say the price was high simply because they are made in Europe.

It wouldn't bother me if say, Chanel made their bags in China, once the quality remained the same. If they are lying about where the bags are made then that would bother me. I'm just using Chanel as an example. I probably wouldn't actually buy another one anyway because the price increases are ridiculous!

Ah come on now. You said the bags were worth the money because they're made in Europe by skilled craftspeople, not Chinese factories. Now you're saying it wouldn't bother you if none of that turned out to be true.

lazygal

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Ah come on now. You said the bags were worth the money because they're made in Europe by skilled craftspeople, not Chinese factories. Now you're saying it wouldn't bother you if none of that turned out to be true.

You haven't posted any evidence that the brands she mentioned are made in Chinese factories. Do you have proof that Dior, Hermes, Chanel and other similar high end brands are made in Chinese factories?

LeeLooLee

lazygal wrote: »

You haven't posted any evidence that the brands she mentioned are made in Chinese factories. Do you have proof that Dior, Hermes, Chanel and other similar high end brands are made in Chinese factories?

No, I don't have proof, because funnily enough most brands of that level would like to keep it hidden. You'd think people would be able to read between the lines once they found out that companies are allowed to use 'Made in Italy' when the bag is simply finished there. Doesn't that tell you something?

lazygal

I think this should be moved to the conspiracy theories section.
Look, have all the inside claims you like but if you can't back them up I'll treat them in the same manner as a relative who thinks fluoridation of water is some big cover up for big pharmaceutical companies or some such. That is, purely speculative.

ceadaoin.

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Ah come on now. You said the bags were worth the money because they're made in Europe by skilled craftspeople, not Chinese factories. Now you're saying it wouldn't bother you if none of that turned out to be true.

I said

ceadaoin. wrote: »

That's not true at all. As others have pointed out, the likes of chanel, Dior, Louis Vuitton etc are made in France, Italy and the U.S by skilled craftspeople who are paid well for their work. You are paying for superior materials and workmanship as well as the name.

so if production was moved to China but still used the same materials and standard of workmanship and the company was open about this then fine.

Your original post was in response to a person wondering if designer bags were made in the same places as pennys bags are, leading it to appear as if you were saying that they were being made poorly yet charging high prices for the brand name alone.

If it's a case of the metal hardware for example being made in China and attached to the bag in France or Italy then that's not really a big deal. You haven't and won't go into specifics about brands or what parts exactly are being made in China and there is nothing online so we will just have to take the designers word for it until some actual evidence emerges.

This discussion would perhaps be better suited to the fashion and appearance section though seeing as it's gone totally off topic!

Figbiscuithead

lazygal wrote: »

I think this should be moved to the conspiracy theories section.
Look, have all the inside claims you like but if you can't back them up I'll treat them in the same manner as a relative who thinks fluoridation of water is some big cover up for big pharmaceutical companies or some such. That is, purely speculative.

I know the head of HR of Coach in a European country (will give no more info than that) and she's told me the bag is half made in China (no mention of sweatshops or anything) and finished off in the States. I can only speak for Coach though. Whether she's lying or not is another thing but I don't think it's a big secret or anything as she very openly told me. Can't provide any evidence either. Disclaimer: I don't care where bags are made or who buys them or am interested in getting into a discussion - just passing on what I heard!

ceadaoin.

Figbiscuithead wrote: »

I know the head of HR of Coach in a European country (will give no more info than that) and she's told me the bag is half made in China (no mention of sweatshops or anything) and finished off in the States. I can only speak for Coach though. Whether she's lying or not is another thing but I don't think it's a big secret or anything as she very openly told me. Can't provide any evidence either. Disclaimer: I don't care where bags are made or who buys them or am interested in getting into a discussion - just passing on what I heard!

Coach bags are labelled as made in China. They don't claim to be made in the US anymore

Figbiscuithead

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Coach bags are labelled as made in China. They don't claim to be made in the US anymore

Ah cool.


Edit: I was all delighted with myself that I'd some "inside info" on the bag scene. How disappointing!