Ire V Arg: Post match thread. Zero Tolerance read post 1

Flashbacks to playing barefoot Rugby in NZ in the 1980's and being taught how to pass as I was being tackled

Yeah_Right

I think I might have a different definition of "offload" from some people here and I don't what the definition is for the official stats. My definition is passing the ball while being tackled is an offload (something the ABs and Argentina do very well) but they are also fantastic at passing just before the tackle (which I don't consider to be an offload). Hope that makes sense.

The ABs and Argentina will often load a narrow blindside with 4 or 5 players and whip the ball through the hands very quickly. Defences will often be a player or 2 short there and when it's executed well there is an overlap. The runners hold the ball just long enough to fix the defender before moving it on. To me that's not offloading, it's catch pass in tight spaces. It takes a lot of practice and confidence to do right but is a beautiful thing to watch when it works.

The other thing I've noticed is how all the SH players will run with the ball in 2 hands when they make an initial break. This gives them options of looking for support on both sides. It seems to me that NH sides do this less.

Ideally these skills should be getting taught at age grade levels but there is no reason why pro teams can't learn them. Argentina have.

RedemptionZ

sydthebeat wrote: »

im not question the attitude, im question walshyn93s claim of such a vitriolic response



is that honestly your experience redemptionZ ?

No sorry, if it comes off people are generally happy with it unless it's a coach with very specific philosophy but I've only ever player under one of those. I meant when it doesn't come off people tend to be angry at players taking risks.

Kenny B

All coaches are different, I coach minis and our only job is to make sure they are able to pass and find space when they go to the next level some are confident in a contact situation, some can tackle others will learn that in time, at their age it is not defining, but most important is passing and straight running, we sometimes penalise (and we're getting tougher) a player who runs back to loop around as they are eating space a pass would free. Once explained a few times it sinks in.

Too many Pro's still drift across without straightening eating space as they go.

Joe's Game style is muck based on winning the aggression battle, it's the type of game that burns out players quickly, injuries are inevitable.


Keith Earls has the best feet in Ireland and all Joe can find for him to do is tackle and ruck all day.

Listened to 'Wooly' on OTB last night saying Earls looked scared out on the pitch last Sunday, there is a lot of uniformed people out there who are getting their opinions from that uninformed moron.

my friend

Kenny B wrote: »

Listened to 'Wooly' on OTB last night saying Earls looked scared out on the pitch last Sunday, there is a lot of uniformed people out there who are getting their opinions from that uninformed moron.

Woolly , seriously? Disregard

flutered

Tobyglen wrote: »

Schmidt had a nightmare world up. We were muck against Italy, decent against a poor French team. Awful against Argies. Our style of play has been awful this year, incredibly negative.
Even Kidney got 2 decent performances in the last world cup and beat a quality team in Australia.

Way too much love in with Schmidt, we won 2 6 nations by tiny margins and had a fair share of luck.

Schmidt is good coach but media love in in laughable, his remit was to make a semi in a WC an we failed.
He obviously deserves plenty of time to get it right but the honeymoon period is well and truly over. Lots of mistakes made in this WC which have already been covered in this thread.

the love in was also on here, if one thinks back

rrpc

flutered wrote: »

the love in was also on here, if one thinks back

And rightly so. Name an Ireland coach with a better record in the professional era.

kidneyfan

rrpc wrote: »

And rightly so. Name an Ireland coach with a better record in the professional era.

Declan Kidney.

sydthebeat

kidneyfan wrote: »

Declan Kidney.

the obvious retort to that is

Schmidt = 2 x 6 nations
kidney = 1 x 6 nations

even club records favour Schmidt

rrpc

kidneyfan wrote: »

Declan Kidney.

What, in 2009?

Including the grand slam year, Kidney's record in the 6N was W14, D2, L9. Win percentage of 56%

Joe Schmidt's is W8, L2. Win percentage of 80%.

Granted that Kidney's record for his first two years is equal to Schmidt's, it fell off the cliff after that. So it's not a better record no matter how you slice it.

kidneyfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

the obvious retort to that is

Schmidt = 2 x 6 nations
kidney = 1 x 6 nations

even club records favour Schmidt

Declan Kidney 1 Grand Slam. Winning the 6 nations on points is meaningless.

Not oft I'd support DK but he also did earn the elusive IRB Coach of the Year award in 2009...

Yeah_Right

kidneyfan wrote: »

Declan Kidney.

That's hilarious.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

What, in 2009?

Including the grand slam year, Kidney's record in the 6N was W14, D2, L9. Win percentage of 56%

Joe Schmidt's is W8, L2. Win percentage of 80%.

Granted that Kidney's record for his first two years is equal to Schmidt's, it fell off the cliff after that. So it's not a better record no matter how you slice it.

Kidney also won an U18 World Cup with Ireland down in New Zealand and as far as I can remember he coached Ireland A to a Championship/Grand Slam back in the early '00s when there was an 'A' 6Ns and he was Eddies Assistant.

edit - and of course a Churchill Cup as well in 2009.

sydthebeat

kidneyfan wrote: »

Declan Kidney 1 Grand Slam. Winning the 6 nations on points is meaningless.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

alright deccy, back to taking your meds

Kenny B

sydthebeat wrote: »

the obvious retort to that is

Schmidt = 2 x 6 nations
kidney = 1 x 6 nations

even club records favour Schmidt

Deccie won a Grand Slam and won 2 ERC.

Joe Lost 2 Grand Slams and won 2 ERC, (he did win a Challenge cup though)

OI OI

While there's no getting away from the 5 injuries, its like Irelands game plan was based on the 2007 world cup, were kicking and defense ruled, and SA won it as they has the best kick chasers. Whats a bit ironic, is that back in 2004 - 2007 our game was more about clever back play. The likes of Rob Kearney is a prime example. He's your man for wind and rain with a strong boot, but the game has moved on. On the rate occasion Kearney runs a ball back, instead of running into space he manages to always find the nearest opposition player. Irish players never carry the ball in both hands and keep the opposition guessing. The whole talk about Joe looking for perfection and zero errors is again 2007 world cup stuff. There is a thin line between cutting out errors and eliminating expression and risk taking. The ommission of Zebo/Fitzgerald for D Kearney being a prime example. Obviously Schmidt is an amazing coach and has done wonderful things, but even the best can miscalculate. Dont tell me we cant attmpt to speed things up, improve handling skills and bring some offloading. We have to look at Argentina for inspiration, in 2007 they came 3rd by playing the 2007 way, in 2015 they are in a semi by completely changing to a faster passing game. Also, can someone tell me why 25 years of age seems to be considered as a YOUNG player in Ireland! Why can the southern hemisphere bring through players so much earlier? We seemed a bit too old and slow in this world cup? Anyway not sure how much of that makes sense but its my 2cent

sydthebeat

Kenny B wrote: »

Deccie won a Grand Slam and won 2 ERC.

Joe Lost 2 Grand Slams and won 2 ERC, (he did win a Challenge cup though)

if that REALLY is how you viewed those 2 six nations championship wins, thats incredibly sad perspective to have

Yeah_Right

Kenny B wrote: »

Deccie won a Grand Slam and won 2 ERC.

Joe Lost 2 Grand Slams and won 2 ERC, (he did win a Challenge cup though)

By that logic Kidney also lost 3 Grand Slams.

davedanon

kidneyfan wrote: »

Declan Kidney 1 Grand Slam. Winning the 6 nations on points is meaningless.

The Premiership, Bundesliga, La Liga etc etc are decided on points. Are they meaningless also?

Pudsy33

We very rarely have a good enough teams to win 6 nations. When we win an unprecedented two in a row, people devalue the manner of it. Mental.

kidneyfan

Pudsy33 wrote: »

We very rarely have a good enough teams to win 6 nations. When we win an unprecedented two in a row, people devalue the manner of it. Mental.

I'm glad that you got pleasure out of it. Life is too short for constant cribbing and moaning.

Kenny B

sydthebeat wrote: »

if that REALLY is how you viewed those 2 six nations championship wins, thats incredibly sad perspective to have

We won 2 championships, if the coach did not limit the style of play and the personnel we might had achieved more.

He picks the same players, playing the same style and expects different results, not once but twice and now in this WC a 3rd time.

We are a predictable team, other teams have worked this out, we have no Plan B and no second gear - get in front, defend and kick. As happened in the 2 lost chances we didn't and couldn't.

Kenny B

davedanon wrote: »

The Premiership, Bundesliga, La Liga etc etc are decided on points. Are they meaningless also?

In Irish rugby terms, what do you think?

Kenny B

Yeah_Right wrote: »

By that logic Kidney also lost 3 Grand Slams.

True but he won 1, name another Irish coach to do that?

(Hint: There are only 2 in total)

sydthebeat

Kenny B wrote: »

1. We won 2 championships, if the coach did not limit the style of play and the personnel we might had achieved more.

2. He picks the same players, playing the same style and expects different results, not once but twice and now in this WC a 3rd time.

3. We are a predictable team, other teams have worked this out, we have no Plan B and no second gear - get in front, defend and kick. As happened in the 2 lost chances we didn't and couldn't.

1. what more could he have achieved in 2 years?

2. with a win rate of 80%, the proof is in the pudding about his style and the quality of player.

3. if we're so predictable how come in the italy or france couldnt beat us?

Kenny B

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. what more could he have achieved in 2 years?

2. with a win rate of 80%, the proof is in the pudding about his style and the quality of player.

3. if we're so predictable how come in the italy or france couldnt beat us?

80% keep shooting for the stars,

5/5 is where we should be, The other teams in the 6N are fairly poor at the moment yet we still get sucker punched in one of our games, and it has happened in the WC where we are not prepared.

LuckyLloyd

Kidney's record when he took the Ireland job was incredibly impressive and - like Schmidt - during his first 10 Six Nations games he won 8 and lost 2. 2016 will be a very testing year for Schmidt.

Wales H, France A, England A in February
SA A in three June tests
Potentially New Zealand in the Autumn

I think we all hope we can continue achieving good results (leaving aside the WC disappointment) against such a tough fixture list.

partyguinness

So after 98 pages and #1400 odd posts- have we won yet?

Kenny B

Yes, but there was a court injunction that overturned it.