Southern Hemisphere Domination

Bridge93

Take Giteau, Folau, Pocock, Hooper and Moore out of the Australia team (only two out today and they're struggling to put Scotland away)

Take Le Roux, Habana, du Preez, Vermeulen and Etzebeth out of South Africa (they lost to Japan)

twinytwo

Rightwing wrote: »

If NZ lost them, they wouldn't be crushed 20-43 by the Argies.

Only a fool would gloss over such a crushing defeat and blame it on injuries. POC is gone, I concede POM / SOB / JS were sorely missed, but you can always expect a few injuries in a tournament. With a full squad, the Argies would still smash us, that's the sad fact.

Questions must be asked why.

it should also be noted argentina had a two week rest for the majority of their starting team... whereas we come off what was a very physical game against france.

The loss of POC cannot be underestimated... he is the driving force of the team

Utah_Saint

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

Richard Hillman

We play a very ugly, conservative brand of rugby in the 6 nations. Even the Tier 2 nations throw the ball about more than we do.

It's not like the players and coaches are incapable of playing expansive rugby. Joe Schmidt's Leinster were one of the most entertaining rugby teams in the history of the game.

LeinsterDub

Utah_Saint wrote: »

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

Has it actually rained at any of games in this world cup?

titan18

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't know how you could possibly not "buy into" an injury. Makes little sense really.

Paul O'Connell, Peter O'Mahoney, Sean O'Brien, Jonny Sexton and Jared Payne are 5 of our best players. If New Zealand lost Carter/McCaw/Whitelock/Kaino/Smith all at the same time they would struggle as well to replace them and look cohesive in the space of one week (two including Payne). It's a big ask.

Regardless, the idea that we have a "box kicking" game is simplistic and incorrect. It's a style we've used in some games, we didn't use it against France for example, we're capable of playing with the ball as well as kicking it. We're just very good at the kicking game.

Assuming no other injuries, replacing them with Cruden, Cane, Romano, Messam and SBW isn't exactly a huge drop off. New Zealand are going to be without 3 of them after the RWC and I'd still imagine they'll have no problem taking on Argentina

New Zealand beat Argentina 39-18 in July missing Ben Smith, Savea, Conrad Smith, Aaron Smith, Whitelock and Coles

Jawgap

Not light years behind, but we need to reappraise how we play the game.

In the mean time, the 2023 RWC should be played in January / February in stadia without roofs and with heavily watered pitches

Bridge93

Utah_Saint wrote: »

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

Was going to say this, we don't have hard tracks here and sun that allow for the southern lads style. France were the only northerners at any point who did and they have a similar climate to the South.

Would the rugby league culture have anything to do with it? I know Argentina don't play it but their improvement is a result of playing Oz and NZ. They love rugby league and have a fair few converts. It's a game that encourages finding space and hands a lot more as you aren't afraid of being isolated (English rugby league is dirt)

nice_guy80

Utah_Saint wrote: »

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

switch rugby to the summer

oh look, its raining

twinytwo

Richard Hillman wrote: »

We play a very ugly, conservative brand of rugby in the 6 nations. Even the Tier 2 nations throw the ball about more than we do.

It's not like the players and coaches are incapable of playing expansive rugby. Joe Schmidt's Leinster were one of the most entertaining rugby teams in the history of the game.

Anyone who uses the above term in serious sentence should be put against a wall and shot

aimee1

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Has it actually rained at any of games in this world cup?

France v canada i think

Jawgap

aimee1 wrote: »

France v canada i think

Raining now in Twickers

Utah_Saint

Ironic Scotland went into the lead when it started raining lol

S. Goodspeed

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct. Schmidt must be forced to change his conservative box kicking type game or be sacked.

We've been box kicking for the last three Irish coaches. I reckon they might just do it because they know it's our best chance of winning. 4 years ago it was annoying because we had genuinely world class backs, now we don't. Dave Kearney, Payne, Earls, Zebo, Madigan are all far too limited in one aspect or another.

twinytwo

look at all the rugby experts suddenly coming out of the woodwork now we lost:rolleyes:

The SH are continuously dragged onwards in terms of innovation by New Zealand who are pretty much always the best team in the world but famously don't mostly translate this into the world cup.

The NH is a bubble with the 6 nations and the ERC cup with most teams playing rugby with big guys running into contact to make a metre or two with no mindset of consistently looking for offloading with team-mates there to take the ball.

Autumn internationals and summer tours playing experimental SH sides mean next to nothing.

After this world cup there will be a reset of some sort and maybe the NH will change a bit. But the SH, under NZ will do something different again and stay ahead.

The solution is the get NZ into the 6 nations! (but that's not going to happen is it).

out of 8 world cups, only 1 was one by a NH team (won by an out-half kicking penalties and drop goals at a level not seen since and an excellent pack). Hard to argue against that stat.

Aidric

glasso wrote: »

The SH are continuously dragged onwards in terms of innovation by New Zealand who are pretty much always the best team in the world but famously don't mostly translate this into the world cup.

The NH is a bubble with the 6 nations and the ERC cup with most teams playing rugby with big guys running into contact to make a metre or two with no mindset of consistently looking for offloading with team-mates there to take the ball.

Autumn internationals and summer tours playing experimental SH sides mean next to nothing.

After this world cup there will be a reset of some sort and maybe the NH will change a bit. But the SH, under NZ will do something different again and stay ahead.

The solution is the get NZ into the 6 nations! (but that's not going to happen is it).

out of 8 world cups, only 1 was one by a NH team (won by an out-half kicking penalties and drop goals at a level not seen since and an excellent pack). Hard to argue against that stat.

Completely right. The SH players have the running offload rugby bred in to them from an early age where as we put more focus on the territorial game.
Their skill-set is way ahead of ours and will always see them through in tight games.

Matt Williams got slated when he had the temerity to suggest Ireland didn't have the attacking threat to go all the way but as usual he was right.

Utah_Saint

It worries me that Arg look like they have overtaken us to join their SH pals. How can they be that good? I dont think they even have a native professional game?

We have a habit of fawning over our backs during 6n. Just watching the Arg backs was scary. They are properly quick and powerful with exceptional passing.

Utah_Saint

Maybe we could undermind the RC by inviting SA into the 6n?.... ;-)

Legalfarmer89

Its very disappointing that this stupid threat actually has some relevance! A number of people have commented that its due to the weather, brand of rugby, athleticism even bloody rugby league. I honestly dont know, but it seems that the south hemisphere teams play with a bit more attacking penetration and intelligent game management than the six nations teams(except South Africa who I think are bloody lucky to be in a semi final due to wales injuries).

bur

With so few teams would it not be feasible to have a WC every two years? Six Nations every year just seems to breed familiarity and staleness.

marc96

Legalfarmer89 wrote: »

Its very disappointing that this stupid threat actually has some relevance! A number of people have commented that its due to the weather, brand of rugby, athleticism even bloody rugby league. I honestly dont know, but it seems that the south hemisphere teams play with a bit more attacking penetration and intelligent game management than the six nations teams(except South Africa who I think are bloody lucky to be in a semi final due to wales injuries).

U think SA are lucky to be in semis but we are the most successful country in world cups and knowing that we are playing so Rubbish but still able to walk into a semi final feels good.wales
Would have put Ireland in the floor if u guys played them,u def would not have gotten out pool A considering how u played against Italy and france

thebaz

could it be lucazade sport ??

By 2019 and 2023, Argentina will be Very hard to beat, being in the rugby championship is improving them hugely. It won't be a case of beating France to get an easier quarter against Argentina it won't matter then it'll be a very tough task whichever of the 4 you get.

irishfeen

We certainly are entering uncharted territory with the 4 SH semi-finalists -

1987 - 2 NH, 2 SH - Winner New Zealand.
1991 - 2 NH, 2 SH - Winner Australia.
1995 - 2 NH, 2 SH - Winner South Africa.
1999 - 1 NH, 2 SH - Winner Australia.
2003 - 2 NH, 2 SH - Winner England.
2007 - 2 NH, 2 SH - Winner South Africa
2011 - 2 NH, 2 SH - Winner New Zealand
2015 - 0 NH, 4 SH - Winner TBC


It not the results which worry me the most its the style of play - the 6 nations teams look like headless chickens against any team which moves the ball wide at pace and who run into space and not straight at men into contact.

Like it or not but the 6 nations need England and France in their prime to drag the rest of us up like NZ do with the other SH nations - France especially have fallen down the pecking order - we need that French flair to rip things up with running rugby. French domestic rugby is now so powerful its destroying the national side.

AbusesToilets

NH rugby needs to be restructured, from club level to international. That's just not likely to happen, the various Unions are too selfish and insular and the clubs are pushing to exert more control over the game.

Bridge93

marc96 wrote: »

U think SA are lucky to be in semis but we are the most successful country in world cups and knowing that we are playing so Rubbish but still able to walk into a semi final feels good.wales
Would have put Ireland in the floor if u guys played them,u def would not have gotten out pool A considering how u played against Italy and france

Walked into the semi final? You almost blew the easiest group in the competition before a late try saw off a decimated Welsh team. Hardly walking anywhere, if the All Blacks play like last night it could get ugly again.

This is the worst South African team I think I have ever seen performance wise.

thebaz

for Ireland now never reaching a semi, its become a curse , its going to become even more difficult, Japan will become stronger , wonder will I ever see it ?

marc96

Bridge93 wrote: »

Walked into the semi final? You almost blew the easiest group in the competition before a late try saw off a decimated Welsh team. Hardly walking anywhere, if the All Blacks play like last night it could get ugly again.

This is the worst South African team I think I have ever seen performance wise.

The easiest pool was def Ireland pool,u had the easiest route to the final
Yet not able to get there?thats the deference between SH and NH teams,we can play Shockley bad yet still get into semis,SA also score almost double the tries to Ireland.

pickarooney

clsmooth wrote: »

Base half your season playing rugby in the wind and rain in November, December, January and February and you have your answer.

This doesn't apply to France any more than it does to NZ.