Southern Hemisphere Domination

MJI

It's now highly likely that the RWC semi finals will be made up of all 4 southern hemisphere nations. Wales, France, Ireland and likely Scotland have fallen to the sheer domination of the south.

Dave_The_Sheep

I love the point you've made there.

Stev_o

I would be interested in seeing the injury lists for all NH tier 1 teams versus all SH tier 1 teams.

Rightwing

This thread won't be a popular one as people hate to face stark facts.

But you can't hide from severe thrashings...can you France? Or England? Or Ireland. Maybe the Scots can save the day ? :pac:

marc96

Stev_o wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing the injury lists for all NH tier 1 teams versus all SH tier 1 teams.

Don't even start with the injury excuses,every team has injuries.only this week were the Irish saying how great the team was and that u had the best bench out of all the NH teams.wales had more injuries and played better still.

Stl088

Without a complete retool of NH rugby, it's hard to imagine a NH making a World Cup Final anytime soon, let alone winning one.

SH are miles ahead. Attacking rugby - that's the name of the game.

Has anyone dared to ask the question - WHY can't NH attack the way SH squads can?

MD1990

They have much better athleticism. Northern hemisphere backs are too focused on size not footwork & speed in the backs.

Burgo

Going to be the first ever all SH Semi finals, well unless scotland can do us proud!

clsmooth

Stl088 wrote: »

Without a complete retool of NH rugby, it's hard to imagine a NH making a World Cup Final anytime soon, let alone winning one.

SH are miles ahead. Attacking rugby - that's the name of the game.

Has anyone dared to ask the question - WHY can't NH attack the way SH squads can?

Base half your season playing rugby in the wind and rain in November, December, January and February and you have your answer.

Stev_o

marc96 wrote: »

Don't even start with the injury excuses,every team has injuries.only this week were the Irish saying how great the team was and that u had the best bench out of all the NH teams.wales had more injuries and played better still.

Calm down, what I am suggesting has nothing to do with Ireland as a sole nation.

This is a question from a Hemisphere perspective, did the NH suffer from injuries the the South? If they did was it to do with bad luck or poor scheduling or a different approach of conditioning.

Stl088

Also, goes to show how useless the IRB rankings are in assessing the strength of Ireland v. countries outside of the Six Nations.

Ireland were NEVER the second best team in the world. You know how they achieved that ranking? By beating other highly ranked NH teams...... that are ALSO much worse than the SH nations.

Anyone ranking Ireland inside the top 4 right now is dreaming.

Rightwing

Stl088 wrote: »

Without a complete retool of NH rugby, it's hard to imagine a NH making a World Cup Final anytime soon, let alone winning one.

SH are miles ahead. Attacking rugby - that's the name of the game.

Has anyone dared to ask the question - WHY can't NH attack the way SH squads can?

We love the box kicks. They love to run and offload.

England had potential to do well but they blew it. I simply knew all the others would crumble at Q-F stage.

bigroad

We are the best in the NH so it no bad for a small country like us we should be ok with that.

MJI

Stev_o wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing the injury lists for all NH tier 1 teams versus all SH tier 1 teams.

Injuries are just excuses. Teams like NZ, SA and AUS. 15 men vs 15 men, they are different class. Their attacking game is on another level to anyone in the north

Celly Smunt

I say we breed our women with fine young SH men, and create a race destined to play rugby and Iook pretty.

Mantis Toboggan

The run and bump tactics of the Northern hemisphere will only get you so far.

MJI

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I love the point you've made there.

The point is in the statement.They are simply better than us. No qualifying, No excuses. Pure domination

Rightwing

MJI wrote: »

The point is in the statement.They are simply better than us. No qualifying, No excuses. Pure domination

Lucozade sport would do well to pull their stupid home nations add now.

Chuckle chuckle.

Bounty Hunter

follow footballs terrible Qatar example, move the World cup to January February time. The SH lads won't like playing in the lashing rain on a cold day.


but seriously im not sure what they can do, there are several factors that combine to create this (some of which yes the weather is actually a factor in why they happen) from the fact that they have argueably got better youth coaching, more focus on athleticism, they play the game at much more of a pace with an emphasis on handling skills (offloads etc) and less so on the kicking game.

LeinsterDub

It seems every 8 years the game under goes a shift of focus. Given the neutering of the ruck by world rugby the sh teams have rightly focused out wide.

laugh

Celly Smunt wrote: »

I say we breed our women with fine young SH men, and create a race destined to play rugby and Iook pretty.

Why not bring their women here?

Coburger

Celly Smunt wrote: »

I say we breed our women with fine young SH men, and create a race destined to play rugby and Iook pretty.

And ban GAA :rolleyes: Only joking.

jank

Well done Argentina. There was a glimmer of hope there in the second half that Ireland could have won it but that door was quickly shut. This SH vs NH debate can await another day but it is clear where the power lies, in fact where it has always. Too much hype in NH about their teams.

I wonder what the future lies now for this team. A change in style hopefully.

Rightwing

jank wrote: »

Well done Argentina. There was a glimmer of hope there in the second half that Ireland could have won it but that door was quickly shut. This SH vs NH debate can await another day but it is clear where the power lies, in fact where it has always. Too much hype in NH about their teams.

I wonder what the future lies now for this team. A change in style hopefully.

Correct. Schmidt must be forced to change his conservative box kicking type game or be sacked.

LeinsterDub

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct. Schmidt must be forced to change his conservative box kicking type game or be sacked.

Do go on! We are going to sack a back to back 6 nations manager because?

Rightwing

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Do go on! We are going to sack a back to back 6 nations manager because?

Won on points differential, we are seeing the quality of teams that are in that now. Poor teams where a championship will probably be decided on who beats Italy by the most.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

Won on points differential, we are seeing the quality of teams that are in that now. Poor teams where a championship will probably be decided on who beats Italy by the most.

We are seeing what the quality of two teams who in that is when they are decimated by injury.

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We are seeing what the quality of two teams who in that is when they are decimated by injury.

I don't buy into this injury stuff. Our box kicking style is all wrong. Same with France, didn't matter who they had or didn't have with their negative style.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't buy into this injury stuff. Our box kicking style is all wrong. Same with France, didn't matter who they had or didn't have with their negative style.

I don't know how you could possibly not "buy into" an injury. Makes little sense really.

Paul O'Connell, Peter O'Mahoney, Sean O'Brien, Jonny Sexton and Jared Payne are 5 of our best players. If New Zealand lost Carter/McCaw/Whitelock/Kaino/Smith all at the same time they would struggle as well to replace them and look cohesive in the space of one week (two including Payne). It's a big ask.

Regardless, the idea that we have a "box kicking" game is simplistic and incorrect. It's a style we've used in some games, we didn't use it against France for example, we're capable of playing with the ball as well as kicking it. We're just very good at the kicking game.

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't know how you could possibly not "buy into" an injury. Makes little sense really.

Paul O'Connell, Peter O'Mahoney, Sean O'Brien, Jonny Sexton and Jared Payne are 5 of our best players. If New Zealand lost Carter/McCaw/Whitelock/Kaino/Smith all at the same time they would struggle as well to replace them and look cohesive in the space of one week (two including Payne). It's a big ask.

Regardless, the idea that we have a "box kicking" game is simplistic and incorrect. It's a style we've used in some games, we didn't use it against France for example, we're capable of playing with the ball as well as kicking it. We're just very good at the kicking game.

If NZ lost them, they wouldn't be crushed 20-43 by the Argies.

Only a fool would gloss over such a crushing defeat and blame it on injuries. POC is gone, I concede POM / SOB / JS were sorely missed, but you can always expect a few injuries in a tournament. With a full squad, the Argies would still smash us, that's the sad fact.

Questions must be asked why.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

If NZ lost them, they wouldn't be crushed 20-43 by the Argies.

The final score is irrelevant if they get beaten.

Rightwing wrote: »

Only a fool would gloss over such a crushing defeat and blame it on injuries. POC is gone, I concede POM / SOB / JS were sorely missed, but you can always expect a few injuries in a tournament. With a full squad, the Argies would still smash us, that's the sad fact.

Questions must be asked why.

The answer to those questions is an inability to replace 5 of our most important players in the space of one week. Only a fool would gloss over such a huge amount of disruption.

You say that with a full squad Argentina would smash us but you really have absolutely no evidence of that. I saw our full squad beat Australia and South Africa not that long ago,in between winning two 6 Nations.

It's so easy to only turn up when teams are playing badly, which is exactly what you do. It's easy to pretend you know the answers. But the reality is not as desperate as you seem to want it to be.

Bridge93

Take Giteau, Folau, Pocock, Hooper and Moore out of the Australia team (only two out today and they're struggling to put Scotland away)

Take Le Roux, Habana, du Preez, Vermeulen and Etzebeth out of South Africa (they lost to Japan)

twinytwo

Rightwing wrote: »

If NZ lost them, they wouldn't be crushed 20-43 by the Argies.

Only a fool would gloss over such a crushing defeat and blame it on injuries. POC is gone, I concede POM / SOB / JS were sorely missed, but you can always expect a few injuries in a tournament. With a full squad, the Argies would still smash us, that's the sad fact.

Questions must be asked why.

it should also be noted argentina had a two week rest for the majority of their starting team... whereas we come off what was a very physical game against france.

The loss of POC cannot be underestimated... he is the driving force of the team

Utah_Saint

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

Richard Hillman

We play a very ugly, conservative brand of rugby in the 6 nations. Even the Tier 2 nations throw the ball about more than we do.

It's not like the players and coaches are incapable of playing expansive rugby. Joe Schmidt's Leinster were one of the most entertaining rugby teams in the history of the game.

LeinsterDub

Utah_Saint wrote: »

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

Has it actually rained at any of games in this world cup?

titan18

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't know how you could possibly not "buy into" an injury. Makes little sense really.

Paul O'Connell, Peter O'Mahoney, Sean O'Brien, Jonny Sexton and Jared Payne are 5 of our best players. If New Zealand lost Carter/McCaw/Whitelock/Kaino/Smith all at the same time they would struggle as well to replace them and look cohesive in the space of one week (two including Payne). It's a big ask.

Regardless, the idea that we have a "box kicking" game is simplistic and incorrect. It's a style we've used in some games, we didn't use it against France for example, we're capable of playing with the ball as well as kicking it. We're just very good at the kicking game.

Assuming no other injuries, replacing them with Cruden, Cane, Romano, Messam and SBW isn't exactly a huge drop off. New Zealand are going to be without 3 of them after the RWC and I'd still imagine they'll have no problem taking on Argentina

New Zealand beat Argentina 39-18 in July missing Ben Smith, Savea, Conrad Smith, Aaron Smith, Whitelock and Coles

Jawgap

Not light years behind, but we need to reappraise how we play the game.

In the mean time, the 2023 RWC should be played in January / February in stadia without roofs and with heavily watered pitches

Bridge93

Utah_Saint wrote: »

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

Was going to say this, we don't have hard tracks here and sun that allow for the southern lads style. France were the only northerners at any point who did and they have a similar climate to the South.

Would the rugby league culture have anything to do with it? I know Argentina don't play it but their improvement is a result of playing Oz and NZ. They love rugby league and have a fair few converts. It's a game that encourages finding space and hands a lot more as you aren't afraid of being isolated (English rugby league is dirt)

nice_guy80

Utah_Saint wrote: »

So in all are we really light years behind the SH? Its really very depressing. We cant exactly change the weather in the north to suit running rugby?!

switch rugby to the summer

oh look, its raining

twinytwo

Richard Hillman wrote: »

We play a very ugly, conservative brand of rugby in the 6 nations. Even the Tier 2 nations throw the ball about more than we do.

It's not like the players and coaches are incapable of playing expansive rugby. Joe Schmidt's Leinster were one of the most entertaining rugby teams in the history of the game.

Anyone who uses the above term in serious sentence should be put against a wall and shot

aimee1

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Has it actually rained at any of games in this world cup?

France v canada i think

Jawgap

aimee1 wrote: »

France v canada i think

Raining now in Twickers

Utah_Saint

Ironic Scotland went into the lead when it started raining lol

S. Goodspeed

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct. Schmidt must be forced to change his conservative box kicking type game or be sacked.

We've been box kicking for the last three Irish coaches. I reckon they might just do it because they know it's our best chance of winning. 4 years ago it was annoying because we had genuinely world class backs, now we don't. Dave Kearney, Payne, Earls, Zebo, Madigan are all far too limited in one aspect or another.

twinytwo

look at all the rugby experts suddenly coming out of the woodwork now we lost:rolleyes:

The SH are continuously dragged onwards in terms of innovation by New Zealand who are pretty much always the best team in the world but famously don't mostly translate this into the world cup.

The NH is a bubble with the 6 nations and the ERC cup with most teams playing rugby with big guys running into contact to make a metre or two with no mindset of consistently looking for offloading with team-mates there to take the ball.

Autumn internationals and summer tours playing experimental SH sides mean next to nothing.

After this world cup there will be a reset of some sort and maybe the NH will change a bit. But the SH, under NZ will do something different again and stay ahead.

The solution is the get NZ into the 6 nations! (but that's not going to happen is it).

out of 8 world cups, only 1 was one by a NH team (won by an out-half kicking penalties and drop goals at a level not seen since and an excellent pack). Hard to argue against that stat.

Aidric

glasso wrote: »

The SH are continuously dragged onwards in terms of innovation by New Zealand who are pretty much always the best team in the world but famously don't mostly translate this into the world cup.

The NH is a bubble with the 6 nations and the ERC cup with most teams playing rugby with big guys running into contact to make a metre or two with no mindset of consistently looking for offloading with team-mates there to take the ball.

Autumn internationals and summer tours playing experimental SH sides mean next to nothing.

After this world cup there will be a reset of some sort and maybe the NH will change a bit. But the SH, under NZ will do something different again and stay ahead.

The solution is the get NZ into the 6 nations! (but that's not going to happen is it).

out of 8 world cups, only 1 was one by a NH team (won by an out-half kicking penalties and drop goals at a level not seen since and an excellent pack). Hard to argue against that stat.

Completely right. The SH players have the running offload rugby bred in to them from an early age where as we put more focus on the territorial game.
Their skill-set is way ahead of ours and will always see them through in tight games.

Matt Williams got slated when he had the temerity to suggest Ireland didn't have the attacking threat to go all the way but as usual he was right.

Utah_Saint

It worries me that Arg look like they have overtaken us to join their SH pals. How can they be that good? I dont think they even have a native professional game?

We have a habit of fawning over our backs during 6n. Just watching the Arg backs was scary. They are properly quick and powerful with exceptional passing.

Utah_Saint

Maybe we could undermind the RC by inviting SA into the 6n?.... ;-)

Legalfarmer89

Its very disappointing that this stupid threat actually has some relevance! A number of people have commented that its due to the weather, brand of rugby, athleticism even bloody rugby league. I honestly dont know, but it seems that the south hemisphere teams play with a bit more attacking penetration and intelligent game management than the six nations teams(except South Africa who I think are bloody lucky to be in a semi final due to wales injuries).