My Mother Got Fined

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 2:17pm #1

Hey, all. This is my first post here so please forgive me if I am posting in the wrong category.

So just yesterday I found out my mother got a €100+ fine from Irish Rail (plus unpaid fare), however, there is more to this than meets the eye. At first, I was very disappointed in her but then I learned that the Leap Card machine wasn't working (apparently the machine at Kilbarrack is permanently broke) - so I asked her if she maybe she did it too fast as the train was right in front of her, she said no. Hell, even the inspector advised that she should appeal the fine!

But I don't think she would be able to appeal this as well as I because luckily, I have just learned how to write a letter of complaint in business studies. I've been trying to find a contradiction in this situation (much like Phoenix Wright), but to no avail. Do you guys think that I'd be able to use "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1980" in this situation? Could I use "all goods supplied with services must be of merchantable quality"? If not, then what can I use? Do you think that we should appeal this fine or should I just tell my mother to accept her fate? I believe this is the first time that my mother has ever been fined; so please, leave your constructive comments down below!

the groutch · 07-10-2015 2:28pm

did somebody at Kilbarrack tell her to go ahead?
was there a person at the cash desk that she could have talked to?
or did she just decide herself that she was fine because the leap validator wasn't working?

n97 mini · 07-10-2015 2:41pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Hell, even the inspector advised that she should appeal the fine!

Standard practice. Inspector will always say to appeal as it avoids an argument.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 2:46pm

the groutch wrote: »

did somebody at Kilbarrack tell her to go ahead?
was there a person at the cash desk that she could have talked to?
or did she just decide herself that she was fine because the leap validator wasn't working?

No, I don't believe so. But even then, the validators should've been working. Why should a Leap Card user have to use a ticket and waste money just because a train station is too lazy to fix their stuff? Also, in case you're wondering- no. Her Leap Card wasn't out of balance. My mum and I make sure to ALWAYS have our Leap Cards topped up, and my Mom isn't the type of person to use technical difficulties as an excuse... Or at least I hope not...

Oh, and incase you feel that I'm being passive-aggressive towards you - don't worry, I'm not mad or defensive. In fact, I enjoy logical responses and questions like yours. Keep it up! : )

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 2:47pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Standard practice. Inspector will always say to appeal as it avoids an argument.

Even when someone outright avoids pay and acts like a belligerent douchebag?

n97 mini · 07-10-2015 4:24pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Even when someone outright avoids pay and acts like a belligerent douchebag?

If it avoids an argument.

Carawaystick · 07-10-2015 4:38pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Do you guys think that I'd be able to use "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1980" in this situation? Could I use "all goods supplied with services must be of merchantable quality"?

The Sale of goods/Supply of services has an explicit exclusion of transport services, so it doesn't apply here.

There is a consumer protection act 2007 which states misleading business practices are illegal
advertising you can use leap to pay for a train ticket and then not providing the ability to use leap to pay seems misleading to me.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 4:47pm

n97 mini wrote: »

If it avoids an argument.

Fair enough.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 4:48pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The Sale of goods/Supply of services has an explicit exclusion of transport services, so it doesn't apply here.

There is a consumer protection act 2007 which states misleading business practices are illegal
advertising you can use leap to pay for a train ticket and then not providing the ability to use leap to pay seems misleading to me.

Cool. Do you know why transport services are excluded from the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act?

flyingsnail · 07-10-2015 4:59pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The Sale of goods/Supply of services has an explicit exclusion of transport services, so it doesn't apply here.

There is a consumer protection act 2007 which states misleading business practices are illegal
advertising you can use leap to pay for a train ticket and then not providing the ability to use leap to pay seems misleading to me.

That might be a bit of a stretch but even if you could prove that Irish Rail was in breach of the consumer protection act would that cancel out the fact that the Ops mother was in breach of the railway safety act 2005?

The barber of chewbacca · 07-10-2015 5:11pm

The Kilbarrack ticket office is open on a part-time basis. As far as I know, there is only one employee who works there.

The Leap machines are constantly broken.

I have often jumped on the train without tagging on, usually going into the city centre. I get off at Tara Street and approach the guys at the ticket barrier and explain the situation. They have never had an issue with it and I just pay them the fare. I'm not sure about other stations though.

runawaybishop · 07-10-2015 5:44pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Hey, all. This is my first post here so please forgive me if I am posting in the wrong category.

So just yesterday I found out my mother got a €100+ fine from Irish Rail (plus unpaid fare), however, there is more to this than meets the eye. At first, I was very disappointed in her but then I learned that the Leap Card machine wasn't working (apparently the machine at Kilbarrack is permanently broke) - so I asked her if she maybe she did it too fast as the train was right in front of her, she said no. Hell, even the inspector advised that she should appeal the fine!

But I don't think she would be able to appeal this as well as I because luckily, I have just learned how to write a letter of complaint in business studies. I've been trying to find a contradiction in this situation (much like Phoenix Wright), but to no avail. Do you guys think that I'd be able to use "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1980" in this situation? Could I use "all goods supplied with services must be of merchantable quality"? If not, then what can I use? Do you think that we should appeal this fine or should I just tell my mother to accept her fate? I believe this is the first time that my mother has ever been fined; so please, leave your constructive comments down below!

Where, when and at what stage did she get fined? If you cant pay you need to make a reasonable effort to pay at the very next available opportunity. Where there 0 other payment opportunities at the station she entered?

devnull · 07-10-2015 5:45pm

There are four ways to tag on/off at Kilbarrack. I find it hard to believe they re all broken.

The barber of chewbacca · 07-10-2015 5:52pm

The two barriers are rarely, if ever, broken. However, the ticket office, where the barriers are located, is closed for a lot of the day.

The tag on/off machines are broken on a consistent basis.

There are ways around it though. Inconvenient as it may be, you could jump on at Kilbarrack and get off at Raheny or Howth Junction to validate your ticket. You could walk to either of these stations as they are not far away. Or as I previously mentioned, explain to the staff at your destination.

If the ticket office is open, there is no excuse for not having a valid ticket.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 6:12pm

OSI wrote: »

There are 2 validators and 2 ticket barriers at Kilbarrack station, so 4 points she could have validated at, and I know at least 2 of them are working as I use them everyday including yesterday and today.

She tried to validate her Leap Card, but it was not working.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 6:13pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

That might be a bit of a stretch but even if you could prove that Irish Rail was in breach of the consumer protection act would that cancel out the fact that the Ops mother was in breach of the railway safety act 2005?

Do you know which part of the act she breached? Is it the one where she avoided pay?

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 6:24pm

OSI wrote: »

Yes, but there's 4 different points that she could have validated. She would need to be very sure that both platform validators were broken and that the ticket office was closed, because it will be very easy for Irish Rail to prove otherwise.

So, is there any way out for her or will she just have to cough up the dough?

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 6:31pm

devnull wrote: »

There are four ways to tag on/off at Kilbarrack. I find it hard to believe they re all broken.

Please back up your claim and show me where these validators are.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 6:45pm

The barber of chewbacca wrote: »

The two barriers are rarely, if ever, broken. However, the ticket office, where the barriers are located, is closed for a lot of the day.

The tag on/off machines are broken on a consistent basis.

There are ways around it though. Inconvenient as it may be, you could jump on at Kilbarrack and get off at Raheny or Howth Junction to validate your ticket. You could walk to either of these stations as they are not far away. Or as I previously mentioned, explain to the staff at your destination.

If the ticket office is open, there is no excuse for not having a valid ticket.

And there's no excuse for the validators being broken. Why should my mother pay with a ticket when she could've already paid with the Leap Card had it not being for a broken validator. People REALLY need to stop white-knighting Irish Rail, seriously.

The barber of chewbacca · 07-10-2015 6:45pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Please back up your claim and show me where these validators are.

Two barriers in the ticket office.

One validator at the gate on the northbound platform.

One validator between the steps and the office building on the southbound platform.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 6:52pm

The barber of chewbacca wrote: »

Two barriers in the ticket office.

One validator at the gate on the northbound platform.

One validator between the steps and the office building on the southbound platform.

Yes, my mother tried to pay at the validator at the gate. Does that one usually work?

Anyways, good thing I use Dublin Bus more than Irish Rail. :P

The barber of chewbacca · 07-10-2015 6:53pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

And there's no excuse for the validators being broken. Why should my mother pay with a ticket when she could've already paid with the Leap Card had it not being for a broken validator. People REALLY need to stop white-knighting Irish Rail, seriously.

I'm not white-knighting Irish Rail. All I'm saying there are ways around it. All which I have done to ensure I have a valid ticket. It is my responsibility to have a valid ticket so I do my utmost to make sure I have. If I board without a valid ticket I am taking a risk and must bear the possible consequences.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 6:58pm

The barber of chewbacca wrote: »

I'm not white-knighting Irish Rail. All I'm saying there are ways around it. All which I have done to ensure I have a valid ticket. It is my responsibility to have a valid ticket so I do my utmost to make sure I have. If I board without a valid ticket I am taking a risk and must bear the possible consequences.

Ok, but she would've and could've gotten a valid ticket. Surely there must be a way to have evidence for such a valid claim? I mean, it IS your fault if YOUR fault doesn't work. What do you think?

The barber of chewbacca · 07-10-2015 6:59pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Yes, my mother tried to pay at the validator at the gate. Does that one usually work?

Anyways, good thing I use Dublin Bus more than Irish Rail. :P

Sometimes it does , sometimes it doesn't.

I'm a frequent user of that station so I kind of expect them not to be working!

I see your issue and have sympathy with it, but I can't see what can be done except to put it down to experience and use Raheny/Howth Junction/Dublin Bus in future.

The barber of chewbacca · 07-10-2015 7:03pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Ok, but she would've and could've gotten a valid ticket. Surely there must be a way to have evidence for such a valid claim? I mean, it IS your fault if YOUR fault doesn't work. What do you think?

I've got on the train without a valid ticket on many an occasion due to the same reason as your mother. Maybe I was just lucky that I wasn't caught.

On such occasions I would get off at Tara Street and the guys there accept my explanation and I pay them.

It's a few pence more, better than €100!

Chimichangas · 07-10-2015 7:06pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

And there's no excuse for the validators being broken. Why should my mother pay with a ticket when she could've already paid with the Leap Card had it not being for a broken validator. People REALLY need to stop white-knighting Irish Rail, seriously.

Obviously it would avoid the situation she has found herself in.

And though I understand the inconvenience it has caused, I dont know that anyone has been white knighting here, apart from you on behalf of your mother which is very good of you!

Have you logged complaints with Irish Rail about the machines you say dont work? Or are you expectin other people to have been bothered?
Probably would be better by email, or letter.
What are the terms and conditions of the Leap Card? Do they mention anything about technology not working sometimes?

I think that an appeal is a good idea, but not the gung ho attitude you have without seeing what your mother did wrong? You might get a better result with a more balanced approach.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 7:09pm

The barber of chewbacca wrote: »

Sometimes it does , sometimes it doesn't.

I'm a frequent user of that station so I kind of expect them not to be working!

I see your issue and have sympathy with it, but I can't see what can be done except to put it down to experience and use Raheny/Howth Junction/Dublin Bus in future.

She goes to an English course in Kilbarrack and goes home via the North gate (we live in Portmarnock), train was right in front of her so I guess she was in that desperation mentality. We have a month to appeal this letter, I think we'll do it. What's the worst that can happen?

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 7:12pm

Chimichangas wrote: »

Obviously it would avoid the situation she has found herself in.

And though I understand the inconvenience it has caused, I dont know that anyone has been white knighting here, apart from you on behalf of your mother which is very good of you!

Have you logged complaints with Irish Rail about the machines you say dont work? Or are you expectin other people to have been bothered?
Probably would be better by email, or letter.
What are the terms and conditions of the Leap Card? Do they mention anything about technology not working sometimes?

I think that an appeal is a good idea, but not the gung ho attitude you have without seeing what your mother did wrong? You might get a better result with a more balanced approach.

I apologise - to you, Chewbacca and the other posters for my overzealous behaviour. I expected everyone to agree with me, but of course that wasn't gonna happen, no more the situation or subject. I'll make sure to look at this from a more open-minded viewpoint now! Thanks, everyone!

challengemaster · 07-10-2015 7:24pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

And there's no excuse for the validators being broken. Why should my mother pay with a ticket when she could've already paid with the Leap Card had it not being for a broken validator. People REALLY need to stop white-knighting Irish Rail, seriously.

If you wanted to buy a television in PC World using a credit card, but their card machines are down - you can't just walk out of the store with the TV. You still have to pay for the goods/service. You just use a different means of doing so.

Infini · 07-10-2015 7:29pm

To be honest if you have a mobile phone itd be worth taking a picture of the machine itself OR if possible recording it if everything is really broken. Can strengthen your hand as well as give you proof to backup what your saying. Some people as well just rush or dont tag on properly it does happen.

Unrelenting Sorrow · 07-10-2015 7:39pm

challengemaster wrote: »

If you wanted to buy a television in PC World using a credit card, but their card machines are down - you can't just walk out of the store with the TV. You still have to pay for the goods/service. You just use a different means of doing so.

Touché. Still appealing, though.

My Mother Got Fined

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