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My Mother Got Fined

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245

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    #32
    The barber of chewbacca
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭The barber of chewbacca


    If you tag off without initially tagging on are you not debited c. €4.50 for one journey? Because if so, maybe owning up to not tagging on was the wrong choice.


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    #33
    Unrelenting Sorrow
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭Unrelenting Sorrow


    Infini2 wrote: »
    To be honest if you have a mobile phone itd be worth taking a picture of the machine itself OR if possible recording it if everything is really broken. Can strengthen your hand as well as give you proof to backup what your saying. Some people as well just rush or dont tag on properly it does happen.

    Good point, but I like to stay as far away from Kilbarrack as I possibly can. Place is a ****hole.


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    #34
    The barber of chewbacca
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭The barber of chewbacca


    Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »
    Touché. Still appealing, though.

    No harm appealing, just make sure they can't penalise you extra for a frivolous claim if you lose.


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    #35
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »
    She tried to validate her Leap Card, but it was not working.

    Where did she try? There are 2 validators, were both broken? Did she approach a member of staff before boarding. When was she fined, in transit, exiting the station?

    What reasonable attempts to pay did she make?


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    #36
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Where did she try? There are 2 validators, were both broken? Did she approach a member of staff before boarding. When was she fined, in transit, exiting the station?

    What reasonable attempts to pay did she make?

    Why miss a train. Not validating on entry costs you when you leave. There should be no extra fine on leap cards.

    I once spent 11:50 to Howth and Pearse because a validator wasn't working in Howth. That's enough.


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    #37
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Why miss a train. Not validating on entry costs you when you leave. There should be no extra fine on leap cards.

    I once spent 11:50 to Howth and Pearse because a validator wasn't working in Howth. That's enough.

    I didnt say anything about missing a train? Op is asking can they appeal, the efforts his ma went to will greatly impact any appeal.


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    #38
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    I didnt say anything about missing a train? Op is asking can they appeal, the efforts his ma went to will greatly impact any appeal.

    I'm saying leap cards should never incur a fine if in credit. The system deducts 4:50 when you enter and credits you when you leave or it deducts 4:50 when you leave. That means people who want to get a train and who are faced with a non operative validator and with a leap card should be able to board a train at the maximum cost when they leave (and that's Irish rail benefiting from their incompetence at machine maintenance.)


    The op is looking for a way to challenge this. He says his mother was charged €100 and the fare for fare avoidance. But she paid the fare ( and the ~>€2 penalty) on exit assuming she exited at a barrier. Since she paid the fare (and more) why the fine?


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    #39
    Unrelenting Sorrow
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭Unrelenting Sorrow


    This thread is wearing me out more than I thought it would so I'll be taking a break. Bye, guys! Hope to see more constructive comments when I return!


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    #40
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    I'm saying leap cards should never incur a fine if in credit. The system deducts 4:50 when you enter and credits you when you leave or it deducts 4:50 when you leave. That means people who want to get a train and who are faced with a non operative validator and with a leap card should be able to board a train at the maximum cost when they leave (and that's Irish rail benefiting from their incompetence at machine maintenance.)


    The op is looking for a way to challenge this. He says his mother was charged €100 and the fare for fare avoidance. But she paid the fare ( and the ~>€2 penalty) on exit assuming she exited at a barrier. Since she paid the fare (and more) why the fine?

    Probably shouldn't assume anything given the op hasn't responded to 2 direct questions on when she was fined.


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    #41
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Probably shouldn't assume anything given the op hasn't responded to 2 direct questions on when she was fined.

    I'm making a general case that in credit leap cards shouldn't be fined.


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    #42
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,652 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    I sympathise with the OP, but in the black and white world of valid travel, the machines being out of order doesn't excuse it. It is a bit like when you park in Dublin City Centre and find the parking machine out of order. You then have to find the next nearest machine, or the next if that is also broken etc. The further you walk from your car, the increased chance of getting an unlucky clamp. If you can't find a ticket machine, you just have to drive to another street. As mad as it sounds, I've had to do this before.

    As a matter of interest, with the ticket office in Kilbarrack being closed for part of the day, are cash paying customers valid getting on without a ticket?


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    #43
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »
    Cool. Do you know why transport services are excluded from the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act?
    I can't say for definite, but in 1980, all transport was run by public sector/state owned companies ( CIÉ, Aer Lingus, B&I ferries)
    The govt/legislature probably knew they were sh1te and did't want to have them losing even more money.



    Re the cpa2007 vs a 2005 act, I'd imagine a later law of the same type ( act vs act; si vs si, byelaw vs byelaw) would have priority. But I dunno for sure.


    If the Booking office was closed there's loads of threads here debating the legalities of boarding without prepurchasing a ticket.


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    #44
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    delly wrote: »
    I sympathise with the OP, but in the black and white world of valid travel, the machines being out of order doesn't excuse it. It is a bit like when you park in Dublin City Centre and find the parking machine out of order. You then have to find the next nearest machine, or the next if that is also broken etc. The further you walk from your car, the increased chance of getting an unlucky clamp. If you can't find a ticket machine, you just have to drive to another street. As mad as it sounds, I've had to do this before.

    As a matter of interest, with the ticket office in Kilbarrack being closed for part of the day, are cash paying customers valid getting on without a ticket?

    I'm going to give an example here. Last Monday week at Howth Junction at 6:30 am all the four ticket machines were out of service and all barriers and all Leap card machines were out of action and the station was un maned. Everyone went around taking pictures on their phones and we all boarded the trains anyway.

    Irish rail need to look after their stations more. The amount of times I have had to ring Leap card to get refunds due to broken station equipment at um manned station is is getting silly at this stage.

    I've had problems at all stations between Howth Junction and Killester with broken and vandalised equipment.


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    #45
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Regardless of whether the ticket office is closed or not, you can still tag on and off from the gates whether the barriers are in fully open mode or they require a leap card or ticket to open. I find it very hard to believe that both barriers were BROKEN and both VALIDATORS were also out of order, the odds of that being the case are very unlikely.
    Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »
    This thread is wearing me out more than I thought it would so I'll be taking a break. Bye, guys! Hope to see more constructive comments when I return!

    Hmmmm....


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    #46
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    devnull wrote: »
    Regardless of whether the ticket office is closed or not, you can still tag on and off from the gates whether the barriers are in fully open mode or they require a leap card or ticket to open. I find it very hard to believe that both barriers were BROKEN and both VALIDATORS were also out of order, the odds of that being the case are very unlikely.

    That's what happened in my case 10 day ago. Nothing was working at Howth Junction station. Not even the PIS system.

    All 8 barriers were off line, all 4 on platform validators were also off line as were the 4 ticket machines.

    It was impossible to pay on.

    And again at Raheny a few months ago, ticket office was closed and stutters down to access the 2 barriers so Leap was the only option to pay on but the one and only Leap card machine at the station was vandalised. Again, impossible to pay on or for anyone to tag off.


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    #47
    Unrelenting Sorrow
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭Unrelenting Sorrow


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Probably shouldn't assume anything given the op hasn't responded to 2 direct questions on when she was fined.

    She was fined on the 6th October, 2015, at 13:10pm (1:30pm). She attempted to pay through the North gate so she was nowhere near the Southern ticket office. There. Does that answer your question, sir?


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    #48
    Unrelenting Sorrow
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭Unrelenting Sorrow


    devnull wrote: »
    Regardless of whether the ticket office is closed or not, you can still tag on and off from the gates whether the barriers are in fully open mode or they require a leap card or ticket to open. I find it very hard to believe that both barriers were BROKEN and both VALIDATORS were also out of order, the odds of that being the case are very unlikely.



    Hmmmm....

    Something wrong, sir?


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    #49
    Unrelenting Sorrow
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 33 ✭Unrelenting Sorrow


    devnull wrote: »
    Regardless of whether the ticket office is closed or not, you can still tag on and off from the gates whether the barriers are in fully open mode or they require a leap card or ticket to open. I find it very hard to believe that both barriers were BROKEN and both VALIDATORS were also out of order, the odds of that being the case are very unlikely.



    Hmmmm....
    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    I'm going to give an example here. Last Monday week at Howth Junction at 6:30 am all the four ticket machines were out of service and all barriers and all Leap card machines were out of action and the station was un maned. Everyone went around taking pictures on their phones and we all boarded the trains anyway.

    Irish rail need to look after their stations more. The amount of times I have had to ring Leap card to get refunds due to broken station equipment at um manned station is is getting silly at this stage.

    I've had problems at all stations between Howth Junction and Killester with broken and vandalised equipment.
    I agree. If you build equipment at your station it's YOUR responsibility to look after it.


  • Options
    #50
    rubberdiddies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭rubberdiddies


    delly wrote: »
    I sympathise with the OP, but in the black and white world of valid travel, the machines being out of order doesn't excuse it. It is a bit like when you park in Dublin City Centre and find the parking machine out of order. You then have to find the next nearest machine, or the next if that is also broken etc. The further you walk from your car, the increased chance of getting an unlucky clamp. If you can't find a ticket machine, you just have to drive to another street. As mad as it sounds, I've had to do this before.

    As a matter of interest, with the ticket office in Kilbarrack being closed for part of the day, are cash paying customers valid getting on without a ticket?

    So what is the official Irish Rail line here then? Quite often the validator at my local station is out of service certainly on the platform I use. The station is usually never manned when I use it and many times I don't have cash to put into the ticket machine as I have a leap card.

    So what am I supposed to do officially? Next nearest train station is about 5km away.

    As it has happened so many times before I have just got on the train and tagged off at the destination. Obviously this is costing me more.

    But clearly I could be in for a €100 fine if an inspector gets on despite not avoiding paying the fare.

    Is it my responsibility to try to get across to the other platform (which isn't a quick job at my station) to see if the other validator is working? What if the train is coming along? Evening trains at my station are an hour or more apart so missing one isn't an option.

    My point is if IRs equipment is failing, how are they still allowed to fine you? Or is it a case that if their ticketing equipment isn't working then just don't get on the train, despite the fact that I will be paying more for the journey anyway when tagging off?


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    #51
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    rubberdiddies wrote: »
    So what is the official Irish Rail line here then? Quite often the validator at my local station is out of service certainly on the platform I use. The station is usually never manned when I use it and many times I don't have cash to put into the ticket machine as I have a leap card.

    You can use the gates whether the station is manned or not.

    When the gates are left open they can still accept tag on and tag off.

    I'm one of irish Rails biggest critics, but people here are clearly jus tlooking for an excuse to evade rather than honestly not being able to pay.


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    #52
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »
    She was fined on the 6th October, 2015, at 13:10pm (1:30pm). She attempted to pay through the North gate so she was nowhere near the Southern ticket office. There. Does that answer your question, sir?

    Not really, i have no idea what the station layout is. Did she make a reasonable attempt to pay the fare? Or did she see the validator was broken and board and get caught then?


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    #53
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »
    I agree. If you build equipment at your station it's YOUR responsibility to look after it.

    Of course it is, but equipment not working isn't a carte blanche to not pay. If you disagree with the terms and conditions of the service you should stop using the service.


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    #54
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    I'm going to give an example here. Last Monday week at Howth Junction at 6:30 am all the four ticket machines were out of service and all barriers and all Leap card machines were out of action and the station was un maned. Everyone went around taking pictures on their phones and we all boarded the trains anyway.

    Irish rail need to look after their stations more. The amount of times I have had to ring Leap card to get refunds due to broken station equipment at um manned station is is getting silly at this stage.

    I've had problems at all stations between Howth Junction and Killester with broken and vandalised equipment.

    i have started a thread today due to this issue on howth junction

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057505194

    can anyone offer advice?


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    #55
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,351 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    That's what happened in my case 10 day ago. Nothing was working at Howth Junction station. Not even the PIS system.

    All 8 barriers were off line, all 4 on platform validators were also off line as were the 4 ticket machines.

    It was impossible to pay on.

    And again at Raheny a few months ago, ticket office was closed and stutters down to access the 2 barriers so Leap was the only option to pay on but the one and only Leap card machine at the station was vandalised. Again, impossible to pay on or for anyone to tag off.
    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    I'm going to give an example here. Last Monday week at Howth Junction at 6:30 am all the four ticket machines were out of service and all barriers and all Leap card machines were out of action and the station was un maned. Everyone went around taking pictures on their phones and we all boarded the trains anyway.

    Irish rail need to look after their stations more. The amount of times I have had to ring Leap card to get refunds due to broken station equipment at um manned station is is getting silly at this stage.

    I've had problems at all stations between Howth Junction and Killester with broken and vandalised equipment.
    Could these posts constitute supporting evidence that it is not uncommon for there to be no means of payment prior to embarkation and in fact the OP's mother is consequently put in a position of having to overpay when tagging off due to the company's incompetence in maintaining its own equipment in working order. Unless the OP's mother had exited at her destination without tagging off the company would be at no loss.

    Might be fun to threaten or actually go ahead with a small claims court action against the company for her loss (100 euro). The hassle of a related small claims court action and the risk of its outcome might cause the company to reconsider its stance. A small claims court ruling in favour of the OP's mother (with suitable publicity) would cause far more difficulty to the company.


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    #56
    rubberdiddies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭rubberdiddies


    devnull wrote: »
    You can use the gates whether the station is manned or not.

    When the gates are left open they can still accept tag on and tag off.

    I'm one of irish Rails biggest critics, but people here are clearly jus tlooking for an excuse to evade rather than honestly not being able to pay.

    what i mean is when the station is unmanned and the tag on/off machine on the platform isnt working (has happened to me on 2 occasions in the last 5 weeks).

    both times i got on the train and tagged off at the other end


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    #57
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,403 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    rubberdiddies wrote: »
    The station is usually never manned when I use it and many times I don't have cash to put into the ticket machine as I have a leap card.

    So what am I supposed to do officially? Next nearest train station is about 5km away.

    If a machine accepting cash is the only method of getting a ticket then unfortunately you should either have the cash to use it, or not get on the train.
    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Might be fun to threaten or actually go ahead with a small claims court action against the company for her loss (100 euro). The hassle of a related small claims court action and the risk of its outcome might cause the company to reconsider its stance. A small claims court ruling in favour of the OP's mother (with suitable publicity) would cause far more difficulty to the company.

    http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/781D7D5227918A618025715C004CAEF3?opendocument&l=en&p=110

    People seem to have this misconception that small claims court is just litigation-lite. A fine is not a good or service, damage to property, or a rent deposit.


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    #58
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    TheChizler wrote: »
    If a machine accepting cash is the only method of getting a ticket then unfortunately you should either have the cash to use it, or not get on the train.



    http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/781D7D5227918A618025715C004CAEF3?opendocument&l=en&p=110

    People seem to have this misconception that small claims court is just litigation-lite. A fine is not a good or service, damage to property, or a rent deposit.

    no but they will bring you too court if you dont pay the fine and thats where you can state your case and the case will more than likely struck out and you can then bring them to court i suppose for embarrassment in a public place after you tried your best to pay etc


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    #59
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Could these posts constitute supporting evidence that it is not uncommon for there to be no means of payment prior to embarkation and in fact the OP's mother is consequently put in a position of having to overpay when tagging off due to the company's incompetence in maintaining its own equipment in working order. Unless the OP's mother had exited at her destination without tagging off the company would be at no loss.

    Might be fun to threaten or actually go ahead with a small claims court action against the company for her loss (100 euro). The hassle of a related small claims court action and the risk of its outcome might cause the company to reconsider its stance. A small claims court ruling in favour of the OP's mother (with suitable publicity) would cause far more difficulty to the company.

    The validators are working in all stations across the country 100% of the time and have been since 1920. Posts aren't evidence, not in the slightest. Evidence would be no ticket sales on a validator, or the validator having to be repaired.

    There isn't a chance in hell she will win in small claims court (small claims isnt even the right court to go to). Best bet is to show on appeal that she made a reasonable effort to pay - if there was a working ticket machine at the station then she didn't make reasonable effort to pay. The only time its allowed to pay on the train is when all booths are closed and all machines not working.


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    #60
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    no but they will bring you too court if you dont pay the fine and thats where you can state your case and the case will more than likely struck out and you can then bring them to court i suppose for embarrassment in a public place after you tried your best to pay etc

    Nonsense.


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    #61
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    rubberdiddies wrote: »
    what i mean is when the station is unmanned and the tag on/off machine on the platform isnt working (has happened to me on 2 occasions in the last 5 weeks).

    both times i got on the train and tagged off at the other end

    Whether the station is unmanned or not, the gates can still be used to tag on and tag off even if they are open.


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