15 confirmed dead so far in Oregon college shooting

asherbassad

Wompa1 wrote: »

But that stops at 2013?...The Norwegian massacre also happened smack dab in the middle and had a huge count. It kind of skews the data. A high count AND a very low population. What about Norway vs US for 20 years per capita?...The Norway incident was shocking because nobody ever thought that would happen there.

Also, Finland has historically had a high rate, they also have a high rate of gun ownership and a similar attitude towards guns to America...so that might just further the argument about the US gun culture contributing to the problem.

Switzerland as we all know has laws about citizens keeping weapons. They are trained and inspected. So all that goes to prove is that the argument that if there were more guns, things would be safer is BS. Or that if people are trained to respect guns this wouldn't happen is BS.

We can all figure out why Israel is so high.

Slovakia, I don't know much about.

4 years of sample data seems a bit underwhelming. Particularly when a small country could have a single incident with many shootings and have that jump them up to the top. I suspect whoever created this, wanted to show America was somehow not the worst...when, I believe if you compared like for like over a longer span, America would be the worst when compared with advanced nations with a similar land mass and population. Per capita is misleading in this case. It would be more interesting to see side by side comparisons of all of Europe vs the US over the last 20 years and then also map out changes...or better yet, maybe back as far as the mid 70's. It seems like that's when a lot changed in US. Also, I suspect many European countries were much worse but have now improved

The whole survey is a farce. Even the little pistol icons across the top with the flags on them for shock value.

BoatMad

zeffabelli wrote: »

You know this sounds pretty close to martial law?

You cannot be serious offerring this as a solution?

sorry, martial law, is the suspension of civil law and replaced by law typically administered by the military


where did I suggest that. I suggested using guardmens, merely because the police force would not have the resources to man every school in the US.

IN time then a dedicated school protection force could be trained and deployed. US military personnel are held in very high regard by large sections of US society and especially school goers. This would engender a certain pride and quick acceptance of such personnel, as opposed to the police which have a " reputation" issue in many places

zeffabelli

BoatMad wrote: »

amongst certain sections Obama is deeply disliked. he has been deeply ineffectual based on his own promises . so we can park that one

Yes the US is a big place and most dont know whats happening in the next state , never mind outside the country

all of this has little to do with the issue at hand though

There is a love affair with the gun....no doubt about that...I disagree with you about the gun thing....

This is Chris Mintz, the hero that ran at the shooter to save other people, getting shot 7 times in the process, and is out of surgery.

http://i.imgur.com/w4IhEIv.jpg

BoatMad

zeffabelli wrote: »

There is a love affair with the gun....no doubt about that...I disagree with you about the gun thing....

there is no love affair with the gun in the US, there is a deeply held view that you have the right to defend yourself from harm. The gun is a tool to do that. In European societies , that view is the state has a duty to defend you from harm ( though a lot of rural farmers would disagree and have you looking down the barrel of a shotgun !!), IN Ireland we have the curious situation where it can be legal to defend yourself with a gun, but it isn't legal to own one to defend yourself in the first place !.

you are looking at the US through TV eyes

Wompa1

Deleted User wrote: »

This is Chris Mintz, the hero that ran at the shooter to save other people, getting shot 7 times in the process, and is out of surgery.

http://i.imgur.com/w4IhEIv.jpg

I'm going to sound like a D1ck BUT this is America....every story needs a hero. Watch the Superbowl any year. There's always a sob story from a player on each team. How if they win they will have overcome the odds. When they win, the camera keeps going back to him.

Not that they don't the applause but "let's not focus on the killer and the horrible act, let's focus on the hero"...isn't going to fix the problems, it just serves as a distraction. It's all over the place that he was in the army too. The guys on the train in France..front and center that they were marines. It all feeds the propaganda machine.

Ah, whatever. I just need to get the fudge out of here.

MadsL

asherbassad wrote: »

Well you have to be fundamentally unsound of mind to either want to kill people or to think that you are perpetually in danger.

Sorry? Why is this comment directed at me??

NoCrackHaving

Why is it usually always schools/universities where these murders happen? I know there have been shootings in cinema's and military bases but educational establishments make up the vast majority of incidents, people aren't walking into the office or bank or supermarket and opening fire so why school's and college's?

zeffabelli

BoatMad wrote: »

there is no love affair with the gun in the US, there is a deeply held view that you have the right to defend yourself from harm. The gun is a tool to do that. In European societies , that view is the state has a duty to defend you from harm ( though a lot of rural farmers would disagree and have you looking down the barrel of a shotgun !!), IN Ireland we have the curious situation where it can be legal to defend yourself with a gun, but it isn't legal to own one to defend yourself in the first place !.

you are looking at the US through TV eyes

No I am not. I am from the US. And frankly, yes even TV would show you the love affair with violence.

Look at Game of Thrones, the sex and violence is good but the story lines suck and it still won tons of awards and the audience is enraptured by all these beheadings....hmnnn beheadings.....what could that be reminding us of that would be far too disturbing to actually show....

Homeland for example, could never ever show beheadings, not this year, but maybe two more years of GOT and we will all be used to seeing heads roll and heck even an ISIS video wont be shocking anymore.

TV can give us alot of insight into waht is going on behind the psyche....

Yeah the right to defend yourself from harm...and who is creating taht feeling of impending harm and danger....we are in an age of suspicion and paranoia and A LOT of people walking around with PTSD, so yeah everyone is on the defensive.

But dont tell me teh gun does not have a mythical place in the American heart....that is just plain blatant denial... OUr anthem celebrates gun powder ffs. Our westerns, our mythology, our revolutions.... Annie Oakley.... the forntiersmen, Jessie James...

It;s a weapon that stands out because you can harm from a distance, you don't need proximity. Hollywood does more for gun promotion than the NRA could ever dream of doing.

hmmm

Wompa1 wrote: »

Not that they don't the applause but "let's not focus on the killer and the horrible act, let's focus on the hero"...isn't going to fix the problems, it just serves as a distraction.

And what's wrong with that? They've been told by the psychologists that in theory they should completely ignore the story - which isn't going to happen. Instead they decide to try and focus on someone other than the shooter, and I've no problem with that - let people see some real heroes and not the pathetic little ****s who carry out the shooting.

Wompa1

BoatMad wrote: »

there is no love affair with the gun in the US, there is a deeply held view that you have the right to defend yourself from harm. The gun is a tool to do that. In European societies , that view is the state has a duty to defend you from harm ( though a lot of rural farmers would disagree and have you looking down the barrel of a shotgun !!), IN Ireland we have the curious situation where it can be legal to defend yourself with a gun, but it isn't legal to own one to defend yourself in the first place !.

you are looking at the US through TV eyes

I got a new neighbor the day of the Blood Moon..Sunday? I think. Anyways, while I was outside to look at it, this guy was moving heavy boxes into his apartment. He had a hand gun on his side in a holster with one thing piece of leather clipping it in.

At that point, that gun was more of a danger than a help to the guy. While he was struggling with carrying his boxes, I could have pulled his gun out and shot him where he stood.

I've seen people bringing guns into churches, stores, fast food places...if it's for protection are people really that afraid here? do they live in a constant state of fear? Or...do they hope they have an excuse to use it?

BoatMad

zeffabelli wrote: »

No I am not. I am from the US. And frankly, yes even TV would show you the love affair with violence.

Look at Game of Thrones, the sex and violence is good but the story lines suck and it still won tons of awards and the audience is enraptured by all these beheadings....hmnnn beheadings.....what could that be reminding us of that would be far too disturbing to actually show....

Homeland for example, could never ever show beheadings, not this year, but maybe two more years of GOT and we will all be used to seeing heads roll and heck even an ISIS video wont be shocking anymore.

TV can give us alot of insight into waht is going on behind the psyche....

Yeah the right to defend yourself from harm...and who is creating taht feeling of impending harm and danger....we are in an age of suspicion and paranoia and A LOT of people walking around with PTSD, so yeah everyone is on the defensive.

But dont tell me teh gun does not have a mythical place in the American heart....that is just plain blatant denial... OUr anthem celebrates gun powder ffs. Our westerns, our mythology, our revolutions.... Annie Oakley.... the forntiersmen, Jessie James...

It;s a weapon that stands out because you can harm from a distance, you don't need proximity. Hollywood does more for gun promotion than the NRA could ever dream of doing.

well lets not decend into analysing TVs effect on society, wed be here forever

Im not denying the US isn't a strange place, the paranoia is very peculiar. Europeans have millennia of upheaval, revolution, dissent,and various forms of terrorism and its a great tribute that we dont look like battlestar galactica at this stage. The US in is short history has comparatively little upheaval.


Yes the country and its myths are intertwined, but to me it has always been the power of the individual against the odds, type of stuff, that has been seen as heroic

Irrespective of how it got here, it is where it is. whats needed are steps that can be implemented quickly to prevent other outrages, changes to the constitution have no hope, armed response in schools could at least be done relatively quickly. Better then some proposals to arm the students !

BoatMad

At that point, that gun was more of a danger than a help to the guy. While he was struggling with carrying his boxes, I could have pulled his gun out and shot him where he stood.

do you know how to load and fire an automatic pistol ?

zeffabelli

Wompa1 wrote: »

I got a new neighbor the day of the Blood Moon..Sunday? I think. Anyways, while I was outside to look at it, this guy was moving heavy boxes into his apartment. He had a hand gun on his side in a holster with one thing piece of leather clipping it in.

At that point, that gun was more of a danger than a help to the guy. While he was struggling with carrying his boxes, I could have pulled his gun out and shot him where he stood.

I've seen people bringing guns into churches, stores, fast food places...if it's for protection are people really that afraid here? do they live in a constant state of fear? Or...do they hope they have an excuse to use it?

This is what is really weird outside of the east coast where you dont really see open carry......

Then when you have kids and they are going on a playdate you have to find out if teh family keeps weapons in the home.

It's just not a healthy way of going about your life. Seriously, but its become so normal they cant see the crazy.

Wompa1

hmmm wrote: »

And what's wrong with that? They've been told by the psychologists that in theory they should completely ignore the story - which isn't going to happen. Instead they decide to try and focus on someone other than the shooter, and I've no problem with that - let people see some real heroes and not the pathetic little ****s who carry out the shooting.

Yes...but they haven't. The police up there would not reveal the guys name and the media still put it out there. What will happen is that the gun nuts will spin the story to be about the highly trained set of hands that came to the protection of the class. If only he had a gun....just wait. It's coming.

I'm living in Arizona. The Sheriff in Maricopa County used the school shootings as a publicity stunt. He rounded up a posse of cranky old retired white guys to 'protect' the schools. It's embarassing

BoatMad

Wompa1 wrote: »

I got a new neighbor the day of the Blood Moon..Sunday? I think. Anyways, while I was outside to look at it, this guy was moving heavy boxes into his apartment. He had a hand gun on his side in a holster with one thing piece of leather clipping it in.

At that point, that gun was more of a danger than a help to the guy. While he was struggling with carrying his boxes, I could have pulled his gun out and shot him where he stood.

I've seen people bringing guns into churches, stores, fast food places...if it's for protection are people really that afraid here? do they live in a constant state of fear? Or...do they hope they have an excuse to use it?

I had two armed police buying food at the counter in front of me in apple green , I could have done the same myself !!!!

I perfer public carry then concealed carry , at least before you start an argument you can see the guy has a gun !

zeffabelli

BoatMad wrote: »

well lets not decend into analysing TVs effect on society, wed be here forever

Im not denying the US isn't a strange place, the paranoia is very peculiar. Europeans have millennia of upheaval, revolution, dissent,and various forms of terrorism and its a great tribute that we dont look like battlestar galactica at this stage. The US in is short history has comparatively little upheaval.


Yes the country and its myths are intertwined, but ti me it has always been the power if the individual against the odds, type of stuff, that has been seen as heroic

Irrespective of how it got here, it is where it is. whats needed are steps that can be implemented quickly to prevent other outrages, changes to the constitution have no hope, armed response in schools could at least be done relatively quickly. Better then some proposals to arm the students !

Im not descending. I am disputing your claim I have TV eyes. Well yes, maybe but TV can give you an insight into a zeitgeist.

No. If tehre are armed government officials in schools that is simply bananas.

Common core is bad enough but state police no.

Government has no place in education. Another good argument to privatise schools altogether.

donegal.

is virginia going to be next?

BoatMad

zeffabelli wrote: »

This is what is really weird outside of the east coast where you dont really see open carry......

Then when you have kids and they are going on a playdate you have to find out if teh family keeps weapons in the home.

It's just not a healthy way of going about your life. Seriously, but its become so normal they cant see the crazy.

its common in certain states , its not that common on either coast

as for guns in the home, was in a farm recently , two shotguns lying against the rear wall of the scullery !.

I grew up with dads gun in the wardrobe ?, he handed it in when my mother pointed out that three teenage boys and one gun wasn't a good combination, perhaps he should have bought another two instead !

BoatMad

zeffabelli wrote: »

.

Common core is bad enough but state police no.

Government has no place in education. Another good argument to privatise schools altogether.

oh dear, I seemed to have touched a nerve

long live the state , long live the state

ps: Im sure we could give the job to blackwater or some other PMC if thats your real beef !

Trent Houseboat

You could have helped him with the boxes too.

My name is URL

Wompa1 wrote: »

I'm going to sound like a D1ck BUT this is America....every story needs a hero

I'm a bit cynical about that whole way of facing things too tbh.

To me it seems like the whole 'don't mention the perp', 'hail the heroes' thing is a good way to deflect people from actually discussing what matters. Laws and mental health etc

Shur as long as there's heroes around there's no need to deal with the issues beneath it all

Wompa1

BoatMad wrote: »

I had two armed police buying food at the counter in front of me in apple green , I could have done the same myself !!!!

I perfer public carry then concealed carry , at least before you start an argument you can see the guy has a gun !

Just don't start an argument. It's not worth it. The amount of stories here of road rage that ends with somebody getting shot is crazy. Or a love triangle that ends with one or more shot..

From what I've seen the police have pretty decent holsters, at least in Phoenix. Also, if there's more than one of them. The other would probably tag you. I had a chubby neighbor once walk by me carrying a rifle some bags and what looked like a box of ammo. He had the gun pressed against his body, with the thing bobble up and down as he walked...I gave him a wide berth.

The worst is when you see somebody with a gun and they walk behind you. Or worse again. Somebody walked into an elevator with a gun!

This place is terrifying

Wompa1

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm a bit cynical about that whole way of facing things too tbh.

To me it seems like the whole 'don't mention the perp', 'hail the heroes' thing is a good way to deflect people from actually discussing what matters. Laws and mental health etc

Shur as long as there's heroes around there's no need to deal with the issues beneath it all

I find there's a trend. The people that highlight mental illness the most are the same who refute stricter gun laws....who are also usually the type that oppose any social programs paid for by their tax money. We need to improve mental health programs in this country BUT they can't be accessible to everybody because that would be god, damn socialist communism gibberish

BoatMad

This place is terrifying

you need to get a gun, you're scared

BoatMad

Wompa1 wrote: »

I find there's a trend. The people that highlight mental illness the most are the same who refute stricter gun laws....who are also usually the type that oppose any social programs paid for by their tax money. We need to improve mental health programs in this country BUT they can't be accessible to everybody because that would be god, damn socialist communism gibberish

yes thats very true, paradoxically on average the US and the EU extract the same amount of tax from its citizens pockets, dispelling the belief that the US is any sort of low tax economy. What we do with that tax is what counts and the US wastes enormous amounts of it

I agree, that a huge focus needs to go in the US on health and that includes mental health , There is little or no screening or contact with the medical profession for many US people

BoatMad

Wompa1 wrote: »

Just don't start an argument. It's not worth it. The amount of stories here of road rage that ends with somebody getting shot is crazy. Or a love triangle that ends with one or more shot..

yes , thats an argument for general gun control , I would agree with that ( if it could be done, which it cant)

but none of that will stop the nut-jobs

Wompa1

BoatMad wrote: »

you need to get a gun, you're scared

Nice try! Like the father of the reporter that was killed. He said he would have to get a gun because of all the death threats and then gun nuts all freaked. DERP! SEE, HE'S A HYPOCRITE, HE WANTS A GUN FOR PROTECTION. DEERRRRRRRRRRRRP!

I need to get out of here, is what I need to do. I was talking about the Phoenix freeway shooter thing with a lady from California the night before this shooting. Just like most Californians, she dumped on the hicks and how backwards they are and encouraged me to move to the west coast. It's not as crazy....

I said, I don't know. Portland is full of wierdos and no offense but you're from California, which is the place where pretty much every infamous serial killer did their deed.

Also, like a typical Californian. She wasn't too pleased with her state being lumped in with the rest of America :pac:

zeffabelli

BoatMad wrote: »

yes thats very true, paradoxically on average the US and the EU extract the same amount of tax from its citizens pockets, dispelling the belief that the US is any sort of low tax economy. What we do with that tax is what counts and the US wastes enormous amounts of it

I agree, that a huge focus needs to go in the US on health and that includes mental health , There is little or no screening or contact with the medical profession for many US people

It violates right to privacy, and also practises discrimination against the mentally ill....if the basis is the right to defend oneself why then can't they also?

You can't have some people having rights and not others....we all know where that leads, not egalitarian, discriminatory etc...

BoatMad

zeffabelli wrote: »

It violates right to privacy, and also practises discrimination against the mentally ill....if the basis is the right to defend oneself why then can't they also?

You can't have some people having rights and not others....we all know where that leads, not egalitarian, discriminatory etc...

I'm slowly of the view that nobody should have rights , nasty things " rights "