15 confirmed dead so far in Oregon college shooting

Streetwalker

Streetwalker wrote: »

When you look the amount of people who die very year in the US due to international terrorism (very few 9/11 aside) and compare it with the amount of people killed by guns plain old murder style you really get a grasp on how fcuked up that particular nation is.

Someone took Obama's challenge to compare gun deaths against American citizens killed in terrorist attacks.

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/9437187/obama-guns-terrorism-deaths

Essentially so few American citizens die in terrorist attacks (post-9/11), that it barely registers year by year, but over 10,000 are killed yearly in gun violence.

osarusan

BoatMad wrote: »

Hence the gun licensing argument is not doing to do ANYTHING to prevent this. It didn't prevent the TGV incident, the Dunblaine, the Norwegian incident etc

Regulation of guns didn't stop these mass killings, therefore regulation of guns cannot have any effect on stopping mass killings.: This is a logical fallacy.

DareGod

BoatMad wrote: »

Personally , I dont think this is about gun control at all. I mean mass shooting have happened in jurisdictions that have very tight gun control , like the Uk and Norway , Finland.

It's convenient that you're deciding to ignore the massive difference in the frequency of these events between the US and those countries in order to make your point. You'd make a wonderful publicist for the NRA.

BoatMad wrote: »

What you have to ask , is why the US seems to throw up these madmen, who undertake mass shootings , especially in schools, again and again.

Every country in the world "throws up these nutjobs." The only ones where people get gunned to death repeatedly as a result are the ones with no proper gun control.

Seriously, would you please just stop. This has got to end NOW.

VisibleGorilla

BoatMad wrote: »

again , its nothing to do with legally held firearms. its to do with the amount of nut-jobs US society seems to generate

I wouldn't say that.

I agree 100% the US is a messed up place that produces some very warped people, but is it really at a higher level than other countries?

I mean if this guy only had a knife, would he have done the same damage?

It is everything to do with legally held firearms, the only thing stopping you getting a gun in the US is having been convicted of a crime where the punishment is 1 year in jail.

Mr Pothead cannot buy a gun, yet Mr. Psycopath can buy multiple fully automatic rifles no problem at all... do you see the issue here?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

But surely you see that these nut-jobs shouldn't get access to legally held firearms, right?

You're going to reply that it has nothing to do with gun laws, or someone else will, and it will continue in this fashion for another few days until people get bored and forget that this happened. Until another shooting happens next week or a few weeks or a few months, because of the current state of laws in America and nothing will change.

I'm either psychic or this just happens constantly.

but how do you design an application that effectively screens for nut jobs, Im not aware that any jurisdictions in effect does such screening.

DO you request a " sanity clearance cert" kinda like a tax clearance one. !!!!!!

we live in a society that accepts that you are innocent until proven guilty , thought crime isn't yet a crime. Most nut-jobs " seem" sane on first pass. ( many are).

Im all for gun laws , but what gun law would realistically stop this stuff from happening, as I said and you and others havent addressed it. He could do the same or similar damage with a shotgun

Ultimately, while you are I wrangle over determining who is or isn't in a society a potential " nut-job" and to obviously deny them access to fire-arms ( and cars and clubs and knives and everything else !), policy makers have to wrestle with how to protect vulnerable children in classrooms.

We've done it in airports and train stations , class rooms are next , there no other way in reality

deaddonkey15

Deep Six wrote: »

There's a lot of variables in that situation. Hypothetically speaking, if I was in possession of a firearm (and being a very light sleeper) I would already be in possession of and loading the firearm before the burglar even gets upstairs. And in the case of some scrote scumbag burglar, they would most likely not be paying attention to or readying their weapon, as their primary focus would be on silent robbery. Add an alert armed homeowner in to that scenario, coming out of a door towards them ready to shoot, and you have a dead burglar in the morning papers.

Could you not protect yourself with a hurl or a knife? Is it really worth killing someone who probably only wants your TV?

Witcher

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

Mr Pothead cannot buy a gun, yet Mr. Psycopath can buy multiple fully automatic rifles no problem at all... do you see the issue here?

You can't buy fully automatic rifles from shops in the US.

DareGod

BoatMad wrote: »

Im all for gun laws , but what gun law would realistically stop this stuff from happening, as I said and you and others havent addressed it. He could do the same or similar damage with a shotgun

I'm sorry, is the basis of your entire point that a shotgun could be concealed and carried around in secret by a student as easily as a handgun? Can you just confirm for me that that is what your entire point is? Thanks.

BoatMad

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

I wouldn't say that.

I agree 100% the US is a messed up place that produces some very warped people, but is it really at a higher level than other countries?

I mean if this guy only had a knife, would he have done the same damage?

It is everything to do with legally held firearms, the only thing stopping you getting a gun in the US is having been convicted of a crime where the punishment is 1 year in jail.

Mr Pothead cannot buy a gun, yet Mr. Psycopath can buy multiple fully automatic rifles no problem at all... do you see the issue here?

mr "nut-job" unless he has come to the attention of the authorities here in Ireland, or elsewhere in europe would also be able to acquire a firearm

It has nothing to do with automatic weapons ( which are banned in the US by the way ) , a nut case with shotgun or a magazine loading bolt action deer rifle could carry out a similar massacre , classroom are places when large concentrations of defenceless kids are collected, typically with one constrained entry/exit point .

VisibleGorilla

Strider wrote: »

You can't buy fully automatic rifles from shops in the US.

Sorry yes you're correct here, I think you can buy them but after certain checks.

I mean high powered rifles, e.g an AR rifle or whatever else that no one really needs at all. A high powered killing machine with 30+ rounds, absolute insanity.

Love how right I am.

Witcher

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

Sorry yes you're correct here, I think you can buy them but after certain checks.

I mean high powered rifles, e.g an AR rifle or whatever else that no one really needs at all. A high powered killing machine with 30+ rounds, absolute insanity.

You can't buy them at all from a shop...with any check.

The only one's available are grandfathered guns from pre-1986, they're collectors items costing tens of thousands.

You're aware that people have licences for these 'high powered killing machines' you speak of in Ireland?

VisibleGorilla

Strider wrote: »

You can't buy them at all from a shop...with any check.

The only one's available are grandfathered guns from pre-1986, they're collectors items costing tens of thousands.

You're aware that people have licences for these 'high powered killing machines' you speak of in Ireland?

What are you talking about?

You can buy these from a Walmart!

http://www.walmart.com/c/kp/ar15-m16

BoatMad

DareGod wrote: »

I'm sorry, is the basis of your entire point that a shotgun could be concealed and carried around in secret by a student as easily as a handgun? Can you just confirm for me that that is what your entire point is? Thanks.

why would a nut-job conceal it. The Oregon shooter didn't conceal anything. take Ireland for example, you rock up in your car with your double barrelled shotgun and a cartridge belt , and walk into a classroom !, seriously who is there to stop you.


Concealment is for those that want to walk away again, these nut jobs know they are going to die , either by their own hand or the police.


the issue is the

(a ) The existence of a nut job

(b ) the focus of nut jobs on schools over other places ( malls , bus stations , airports etc)

(c ) protecting the children when a nut-job appears at your school door


short of simply banning all firearms , including sporting hunting , etc and waging a virtual war to remove illegally held guns, what does thinking with the licensing system actually achieve

Ill tell you what it achieves , it simply denies people , that are not nut-jobs a firearm , such people that would never in a million years consider these actions , but it doesnt nothing to stop the nut-job

Witcher

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

What are you talking about?

You can buy these from a Walmart!

http://www.walmart.com/c/kp/ar15-m16

They're not fully automatic, which is the point I raised with you.

The Black Oil

BoatMad wrote: »

unfortunately , the uncomfortable truth for America is that is the problem.

You could clamp down tighter then say European gun laws ( which actually do very little in the way of " background" checks ). but that still leaves these individuals , full of hate and with the mental capacity to carry out such an atrocity. They'll find a weapon in which to carry out such attacks one way or the other

That may be the case, but I think now the US debate about guns, gun violence and mental health is not a particularly even-headed or mature one. It's almost as bad as discussing gender/sexism/feminism online. Mental health does have to be looked at as a risk factor. If someone had mild depression 10 years ago, and no further incidents since, is it worth restricting their access to a gun? I don't know. Most people with mental health problems are not violent and will never be.

I agree with someone else who posted in the thread about the need for a cultural shift. This has gone on for too long. There needs to be a multi-pronged approach to tackling this problem.

BoatMad

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

Sorry yes you're correct here, I think you can buy them but after certain checks.

I mean high powered rifles, e.g an AR rifle or whatever else that no one really needs at all. A high powered killing machine with 30+ rounds, absolute insanity.

I see, so banning " certain types " of firearms would deter the " nut-job"

"Oh ghee, I can only buy these two deer rifles with 5 round round bolt action magazines " , "so I cant go an shoot up my local school ", oh well, back to sending more crazy messages on Twitter

yup, thats the solution

VisibleGorilla

Strider wrote: »

They're not fully automatic, which is the point I raised with you.

I addressed that point which was my mistake in saying 'fully automatic'. They are however high powered, they hold multiple rounds and they are killing machines which can be bought by anyone without a felony in supermarkets all over the country.

justchecked

strelok wrote: »

aside from the fact that it's as much of a ridiculous over reaction as the 'ban all guns now' crowd

How about just banning .... oh i dont know ... the ones that make quickly spraying a classroom with bullets really really easy.

Cause they really dont seem to have that much application in civil day to day life.

Witcher

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

I addressed that point which was my mistake in saying 'fully automatic'. They are however high powered, they hold multiple rounds and they are killing machines which can be bought by anyone without a felony in supermarkets all over the country.

and again I must ask you; you're aware people have licences for these high powered, multiple round holding killing machines in Ireland?

BoatMad

The Black Oil wrote: »

That may be the case, but I think now the US debate about guns, gun violence and mental health is not a particularly even-headed or mature one. It's almost as bad as discussing gender/sexism/feminism online. Mental health does have to be looked at as a risk factor. If someone had mild depression 10 years ago, and no further incidents since, is it worth restricting their access to a gun? I don't know. Most people with mental health problems are not violent and will never be.

I agree with someone else who posted in the thread about the need for a cultural shift. This has gone on for too long. There needs to be a multi-pronged approach to tackling this problem.

Agreed, but the issue is very complex and approaches a version of " thought crime". in the meantime authorities have to protect the vulnerable, whether thats on planes , in a TGV or sitting in a classroom. We seem to have no real issue with protecting the first with armed police, but somehow we have a difficulty with protecting the second group so. I find that illogical . In all cases I deplore that modern society has to enact such defences, but I dont see a whole load of practical alternatives

VisibleGorilla

BoatMad wrote: »

I see, so banning " certain types " of firearms would deter the " nut-job"

"Oh ghee, I can only buy these two deer rifles with 5 round round bolt action magazines " , "so I cant go an shoot up my local school ", oh well, back to sending more crazy messages on Twitter

yup, thats the solution

No, my solution would be to ban them outright and I enjoy shooting in ranges whenever I get over to the states.

Or require anyone wishing to purchase them undergo a psychiatric evaluation at their own expense.

BoatMad

Strider wrote: »

and again I must ask you; you're aware people have licences for these high powered, multiple round holding killing machines in Ireland?

all firearms could be regarded in that that capacity, whether in Ireland, Hindustan or the US

the issue is the person not the ironmongery

VisibleGorilla

Strider wrote: »

and again I must ask you; you're aware people have licences for these high powered, multiple round holding killing machines in Ireland?

I'm not aware no, I know people who do sport shooting and they are limited to .22 pistols.

If you can actually get these weapons legally in Ireland it's news to me.

Witcher

BoatMad wrote: »

all firearms could be regarded in that that capacity, whether in Ireland, Hindustan or the US

the issue is the person not the ironmongery

The point I was making was that the sky has not fallen in as a result.

Witcher

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

I'm not aware no, I know people who do sport shooting and they are limited to .22 pistols.

If you can actually get these weapons legally in Ireland it's news to me.

Well there you go, we're all learning something new today.

BoatMad

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

No, my solution would be to ban them outright and I enjoy shooting in ranges whenever I get over to the states.

Or require anyone wishing to purchase them undergo a psychiatric evaluation at their own expense.

well the IFA will never agree to that , yep, thats a practical solution, I cant see famers and deer hunters all trooping down to " nut clinic" to get " nut-job clearance certs "

I can see the questionnaire

[a] are Mad [yes/no]

do you get angry at the world and wish to wipe out children [yes/no]

[c] do you watch rambo movies [yes/no]


PS you can enjoy range shooting in many countries , no need to travel to the states

Why do you care so much, BoatMod?

BoatMad

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

I'm not aware no, I know people who do sport shooting and they are limited to .22 pistols.

If you can actually get these weapons legally in Ireland it's news to me.

high powered handguns are grandfathered in Ireland, about 1500 licenses exist, there owners are very careful and the conditions under which they are held are very onerous. No new ones have been issued for several years. ( essentially since 2009) There are very severe restrictions on any semi-auto firearms, including rifles and shotguns. its one of the most restrictive licensing regimes in the world

if you descend this debate into "calibre" you derail the whole debate. The issue is the nut-job not the ironmongery , you can do incredible damage with a double barrel and a pocket full of cartridges as shotguns are very high powered firearms

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do you care so much, BoatMod?

i dont , I merely wonder why the US seems to spawn so many nut-jobs that target children, Ive lived there and I still ponder whats going on